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    Default Who's talking now?

    From Urbanfirefighter.com
    Who's Talking Now?
    Posted on 1/16/2011

    Who’s Talking Now?

    By Ray McCormack

    Watch your step. Be careful. Be safe, indeed – and watch what you read. Today the fire service critic lives in a protected area: the internet – and is not required to have any fire experience to draw upon. Like birds awaiting Momma’s feeding, fire service critics sit with mouths’ open, ready to chew on whatever mistake or omission is provided them. How does that happen? How do we collectively know it is wrong and still allow it to exist? Does outrage serve as amusement? Is it the accident we cannot look away from that draws us in? A senior firefighter once remarked upon being interrupted: “The Firefighters are talking now.”
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Default A-fricking-men.

    A deep drive to center field.....back, back, back, going, going, GONE!

    McCormack hits another one out of the ballpark. This should be a "sticky" for FH.com I need to incorporate part of this article in a new sig.

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    Default

    Now if we can get the webteam to read this.
    FF/Paramedic

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    Quote Originally Posted by tny1771 View Post
    A deep drive to center field.....back, back, back, going, going, GONE!

    McCormack hits another one out of the ballpark. This should be a "sticky" for FH.com I need to incorporate part of this article in a new sig.
    Sorta looks like a foul pop to the third base side.

    Caught by Schmidt.

    Inning over.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-16-2011 at 10:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sorta looks like a foul pop to the third base side.

    Caught by Schmidt.

    Inning over.
    The only thing "foul" is you... or should that be "fowl"....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Sorta looks like a foul pop to the third base side.

    Caught by Schmidt.

    Inning over.
    The meaningless, out of touch, minority, when faced with overwhelming proof that they are such have no recourse but to attack a nationally recognized fire service leader.

    Thanks LA, once again you have sunk to another new low.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    The meaningless, out of touch, minority, when faced with overwhelming proof that they are such have no recourse but to attack a nationally recognized fire service leader.

    Thanks LA, once again you have sunk to another new low.
    I disagreed with a statement by a nationally recognized figure.

    Maybe to you he is a leader, but there are many of us who do not consider him as such.

    In addition, there is a big difference between attacking the man and disagreeing his statements. Again, in his world, he may have both the need and the resources to put aggressiveness ahead of safety. In the world of the majority of the firefighters in the US, that need seldom exists and often the resources exist even more seldom.

    In my combo world, the need rarely exists but the resources are often sufficient for the scale of incidents we respond to. It's simply a matter of taking the risks only when there is a measurable gain, not just because "it's our job" like the LT seems to feel should be the case.

    I disagree. Risk should be taken when there is a reason, not just because we're the fire department

    In my volunteer world, often extinguishment before safety is downright dangerous.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-17-2011 at 07:50 AM.

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    I disagreed with a statement by a nationally recognized figure.
    No, your exact quote;
    "not on what cracked LT from the FDNY says."
    That was more like a baseless attack.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Default

    Channeling the late Johnny Carson as Karnak the Magnificent...

    "That was another thread and doesn't count here"

    Question: what phrase will LA Bobby use to backpedal from this thread!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I disagreed with a statement by a nationally recognized figure.

    Maybe to you he is a leader, but there are many of us who do not consider him as such.

    In addition, there is a big difference between attacking the man and disagreeing his statements. Again, in his world, he may have both the need and the resources to put aggressiveness ahead of safety. In the world of the majority of the firefighters in the US, that need seldom exists and often the resources exist even more seldom.

    In my combo world, the need rarely exists but the resources are often sufficient for the scale of incidents we respond to. It's simply a matter of taking the risks only when there is a measurable gain, not just because "it's our job" like the LT seems to feel should be the case.

    I disagree. Risk should be taken when there is a reason, not just because we're the fire department

    In my volunteer world, often extinguishment before safety is downright dangerous.
    LA, for the love of god, just shut up. If you have nothing constructive to say, go play in traffic. I've attempted to support you here and there and have done nothing but made a fool of my self for my efforts. Your post here in this thread, along with most others and as far as i can tell your mindset has no bearing or relevance on anything discussed IN THIS THREAD. Don't go away mad, just go away.
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    Its a firefighter thing, you wouldn't understand.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtg55 View Post
    LA, for the love of god, just shut up. If you have nothing constructive to say, go play in traffic. I've attempted to support you here and there and have done nothing but made a fool of my self for my efforts. Your post here in this thread, along with most others and as far as i can tell your mindset has no bearing or relevance on anything discussed IN THIS THREAD. Don't go away mad, just go away.
    But that is why I do post.

    There seems to be a mindset among some of the posters here that unless a firefighter operates in a way that they feel a firefighter should operate, they don't recognize them as a "firefighter". Unfortunately McCormack's attitude of aggressiveness and extinguishment before safety seems to be the mantra for this group.

    The fact is there are many firefighters in this country that as just as "real" as "McCormacks's firefighters" who will rarely if ever operate interior, and should get the same respect for that they do, and have the exact same title, without question, as any other firefighter in this country.

    That last line of his quote sums up the disrespect they seem to get from him, as well as some of the posters here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I disagreed with a statement by a nationally recognized figure.

    Maybe to you he is a leader, but there are many of us who do not consider him as such.

    In addition, there is a big difference between attacking the man and disagreeing his statements. Again, in his world, he may have both the need and the resources to put aggressiveness ahead of safety. In the world of the majority of the firefighters in the US, that need seldom exists and often the resources exist even more seldom.

    In my combo world, the need rarely exists but the resources are often sufficient for the scale of incidents we respond to. It's simply a matter of taking the risks only when there is a measurable gain, not just because "it's our job" like the LT seems to feel should be the case.

    I disagree. Risk should be taken when there is a reason, not just because we're the fire department

    In my volunteer world, often extinguishment before safety is downright dangerous.
    "MANY" of us? How about a VERY SMALL FEW? Like YOU? Like I said EARLIER,could you be bothered to attend one of Ray's classes you MIGHT just LEARN something. The man is FAR from suicidal. But he KNOWS how to deal with FIRE. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    "MANY" of us? How about a VERY SMALL FEW? Like YOU? Like I said EARLIER,could you be bothered to attend one of Ray's classes you MIGHT just LEARN something. The man is FAR from suicidal. But he KNOWS how to deal with FIRE. T.C.
    Never said he was suicidal.

    The fact is however his world is very different from my world, in terms of occupancies and hazards, resources, averafe training and experience and water supply.

    He is operating in a world with different parameters, therefore his idea of accepatable risk and an attackable fire is much different from mine, and certainly most of the departments in this area of the state.

    Whikle there may be things I could learn from him, there is very little that would apply to either my combo, or especially my volunteer operations. Without that relevance, attending a class of his would likely be pointless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Channeling the late Johnny Carson as Karnak the Magnificent...

    "That was another thread and doesn't count here"

    Question: what phrase will LA Bobby use to backpedal from this thread!

    Did I call him cracked? Yes. And I will admit that may have been over the top.

    But my point remains as he seems to be saying that unless you are aggressive, you are a wimp. He does not seem to recognize the conditions that exist outside of the NYC area that legitimatly prevent departmens from being aggressive.

    Maybe out of touch with rural realities would have been a better choice of words.

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    Post Well..........

    I'm neither Attacking nor Backing anyone in this discussion specifically. What I am saying is that there is room for discussion and variances in procedures. We've all said (and largely agreed) this isn't England (No Disrespect) where a "One size Fits all" or "Cookie Cutter" approach is warranted. In my area, where our "Normal" Big Fire is a multi alarm job in a Garden Apartment Building, we have adequate resources to "Go Big, Go Hard, Go Fast" from the Start. The Firefighting Triangle -Firemen, Apparatus, Water - are there and ready to go to work. I am quite aware that there are a lot of places where that just isn't the case. We operate Agressively, but Safely. This isn't hard to do, as long as you train that way, work that way, and have the resources. When something is missing, you have to adapt. When you find youself in that position, your operations change, and the outcome changes, sometimes dramatically...........
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    But that is why I do post.
    .
    Shhh... The Firefighters are talking now.


    This thread, like 99% of the others you threadjack should end after 3 posts: Agree to disagree and move on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Never said he was suicidal.

    The fact is however his world is very different from my world, in terms of occupancies and hazards, resources, averafe training and experience and water supply.

    He is operating in a world with different parameters, therefore his idea of accepatable risk and an attackable fire is much different from mine, and certainly most of the departments in this area of the state.

    Whikle there may be things I could learn from him, there is very little that would apply to either my combo, or especially my volunteer operations. Without that relevance, attending a class of his would likely be pointless.
    And THAT would be where you are WRONG! VERY wrong! You could learn a LOT from Ray but you WON'T be bothered cause he doesn't fit in your microscopic view of what you percieve this business is all about. Given the same parameters, NATIONWIDE,99% of us are on the same page. Not so sure where YOU are but it's NOT with the HIGH percentile. I've found Ray's methodology to work well here as does Ciampo and Dugas's musings. Oh,we approach it a LITTLE differently but the methods save LABOR,increase SAFETY and make the job go smoother. But you will NEVER know if you don't get your head out and attend a class. If you prefer the yard,disregard the previous message. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    And THAT would be where you are WRONG! VERY wrong! You could learn a LOT from Ray but you WON'T be bothered cause he doesn't fit in your microscopic view of what you percieve this business is all about. Given the same parameters, NATIONWIDE,99% of us are on the same page. Not so sure where YOU are but it's NOT with the HIGH percentile. I've found Ray's methodology to work well here as does Ciampo and Dugas's musings. Oh,we approach it a LITTLE differently but the methods save LABOR,increase SAFETY and make the job go smoother. But you will NEVER know if you don't get your head out and attend a class. If you prefer the yard,disregard the previous message. T.C.
    I prefer to attend classes with instructors that operate in my world, as they tend to deliver more relevant material.

    I just find that I get far more out of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I prefer to attend classes with instructors that operate in my world, as they tend to deliver more relevant material.

    I just find that I get far more out of them.
    Never been to a class with ANY Instructor that operates in anything I could identify as "Your" world. Still TRYING to figure out what that is. Just WHO might these Instructors be? AND......If you've NEVER attended on of Ray's classes,HOW do you KNOW that the material he delivers would NOT be revelant? Short answer.........You DON'T.

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    The joke is that you actually believe you are in a position to question what he or any other fire service leader has to say.

    You're delusional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Never been to a class with ANY Instructor that operates in anything I could identify as "Your" world. Still TRYING to figure out what that is. Just WHO might these Instructors be? AND......If you've NEVER attended on of Ray's classes,HOW do you KNOW that the material he delivers would NOT be revelant? Short answer.........You DON'T.
    Much of what we take is classes, in terms of fireground operations, is delivered by instructors from LA and east TX through LSU FETI and TEEX. As a rule, they are delivered by local full-time or adjunct instructors.

    The same was true in VT where most of the classes I took were delivered by local or regional instructors familiar with local and regional conditions and operations thriough regional classes and schools. There was no state academy.

    My classes in NY were fairly standardized for statewide application but delivered locally by local state instuctors who could add and delete some material based on local conditions. I never did attend the State Fire Academy while there.

    I guess I prefer to take fireground classes from local instructors that know the local building stock and resources, and teach to that. While it may be good information to know how fires behaves in a mid-rise, or how trucks can be effectivly used in an operation it has no relevance if the department doesn't have a mid-rise or only utilzes truck in a master stream role.

    While I have never taken a fireground class from the LT, or any other instructor with a primarily or all urban background I honestly have no idea what they could bring to the table in terms of tanker shuttle operations, operations in mobile homes or many of the other issues we face.

    That being said, I have taken many public education and juvenile firesetting classes from national instructors. I have also taken a couple of smoke reading classes and very generic operations classes where local conditions were fairly irrelevant to the material

    He may teach a great class. When he does a class exclusive to single family residences and mobile homes using rural water operations, I may think about attending. Until then, there probably isn't very much that I can use.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-17-2011 at 12:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    The joke is that you actually believe you are in a position to question what he or any other fire service leader has to say.

    You're delusional.
    Actually, anybody should be in a postion to question any fire service leader.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Much of what we take is classes, in terms of fireground operations, is delivered by instructors from LA and east TX through LSU FETI and TEEX. As a rule, they are delivered by local full-time or adjunct instructors.

    The same was true in VT where most of the classes I took were delivered by local or regional instructors familiar with local and regional conditions and operations thriough regional classes and schools. There was no state academy.

    My classes in NY were fairly standardized for statewide application but delivered locally by local state instuctors who could add and delete some material based on local conditions. I never did attend the State Fire Academy while there.

    I guess I prefer to take fireground classes from local instructors that know the local building stock and resources, and teach to that. While it may be good information to know how fires behaves in a mid-rise, or how trucks can be effectivly used in an operation it has no relevance if the department doesn't have a mid-rise or only utilzes truck in a master stream role.

    While I have never taken a fireground class from the LT, or any other instructor with a primarily or all urban background I honestly have no idea what they could bring to the table in terms of tanker shuttle operations, operations in mobile homes or many of the other issues we face.

    That being said, I have taken many public education and juvenile firesetting classes from national instructors. I have also taken a couple of smoke reading classes and very generic operations classes where local conditions were fairly irrelevant to the material

    He may teach a great class. When he does a class exclusive to single family residences and mobile homes using rural water operations, I may think about attending. Until then, there probably isn't very much that I can use.
    Like I said,DON'T judge a "Book" UNLESS you've cracked the cover. Ray covers ALL that and MORE. While he MAY work in the CITY,he's equally comfortable in a rural setting, Much like Dugas and Ciampo,, a roof is a roof and optimising operations is what THEY do. If you don't get on a roof,then it probably doesn't affect you much. BTW, this covers ALL roofs whether they are 1 story or 23 stories.Try OUTSIDE the box,it's MUCH less confining. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Like I said,DON'T judge a "Book" UNLESS you've cracked the cover. Ray covers ALL that and MORE. While he MAY work in the CITY,he's equally comfortable in a rural setting, Much like Dugas and Ciampo,, a roof is a roof and optimising operations is what THEY do. If you don't get on a roof,then it probably doesn't affect you much. BTW, this covers ALL roofs whether they are 1 story or 23 stories.Try OUTSIDE the box,it's MUCH less confining. T.C.
    Rural operations - where this is what you often see on arrival:

    And your nearest help is still 10 minutes and more away.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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