We have a major problem in are fire department and since most of the conventional methods have failed I’m turning to the wisdom of others for help. We have 3 individuals in are fire dept. that have never taken their basic firefighter certification and at least 8 who have allowed there certification to expire however they continue to impersonate firefighters and respond on calls we even tried taking it too court in part of a law suit and filing a complaint with the division of EMS and so far we have had no luck in finding anyone to enforce the law and protect the rest of us from the danger that untrained firefighters pose. Below is a link to the ORC which outlines the firefighter qualifications for a firefighter in Ohio. Please guys I’m looking for any and all suggestions and avenues to help end this major safety issue.
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Thread: Uncertified Firefighters
01-17-2011, 09:41 PM #1
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
01-17-2011, 09:54 PM #2
If the 3 who are not certified have less than a year on, there is no violation.
I do not know of any state laws, nor does that law that you referenced state anything about firefighter certification expiring and the "Division of EMS" wouldn't have anything to do with that anyway.
Sounds to me like you are talking about EMT certifications which is a whole other beast. Ultimately, no one on here can do much about it anyway. My advice is to have someone proof read your letter before you send it anywhere and make sure you have a clue what you are talking about.Robert Kramer
Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.
"Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.
Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.
01-17-2011, 09:54 PM #3
- Join Date
- May 2000
- SW MO
Fire them, take back their gear, then have them removed from the scene as civilians interfering with an emergency operation if they continue to respond.
Doesn't seem too difficult to me if that's what required to be a firefighter with your department.
01-17-2011, 10:33 PM #4
Or you could just take them out back of the station & string um up .
01-17-2011, 10:39 PM #5
I know we've only known each other four weeks and three days, but to me it seems like nine weeks and five days. The first day seemed like a week and the second day seemed like five days. And the third day seemed like a week again and the fourth day seemed like eight days. And the fifth day you went to see your mother and that seemed just like a day, and then you came back and later on the sixth day, in the evening, when we saw each other, that started seeming like two days, so in the evening it seemed like two days spilling over into the next day and that started seeming like four days, so at the end of the sixth day on into the seventh day, it seemed like a total of five days. And the sixth day seemed like a week and a half. I have it written down, but I can show it to you tomorrow if you want to see it.IAFF
01-17-2011, 10:39 PM #6
- Join Date
- Jun 2002
- Glenn Dale Md, Heart of the P.G. County Fire Belt....
I'd Help you if I could, BUT, you need to know a bit more about this place we call "The Forums". Those of us here represent a lot of years of experience, and most of us have some common sense as well. Our "People Skills" vary a bit (I'm being VERY kind to a few, especially Snowball) but most aren't that bad. A major point is that we're from all 50 States and more than a few Foreign Countries.
If you ask a Question about a legal point in Ohio, those of us that have no background in Ohio won't be of much help. I'm not saying that you shouldn't look for help, just that it may not appear........ Personally, I'd like to know more about this situation, there seems to be more to it........Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
In memory of
Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006
IACOJ Budget Analyst
I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.
01-17-2011, 10:54 PM #7
01-17-2011, 11:02 PM #8
If those members not meeting your jurisdiction's minimum standards are allowed to operate in a capacity that they are not trained/certified to do, then THEY have recourse against you if/when they are injured. Additionally, the public and the media would have a field day with this when someone (FF and/or civilian is seriously injured or killed and/or property is damaged).
Take decisive action now. Remove them from any capacity that they are not trained/certified to fulfill.DFW
"There's no such thing as a free lunch."
01-17-2011, 11:15 PM #9
If they are volunteers, you can get a "Cease and Desist Order", or even a "restraining order" to keep them out and away.
FM1I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.
Originally Posted by EastKyFF
01-18-2011, 12:40 AM #10I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.
"The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."
"When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."
01-18-2011, 12:45 AM #11
01-18-2011, 01:18 AM #12
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
There is a huge story behind this some including possible fraud in a FEMA grant which the US inspector general is looking into and were not supposed to discuss details of.
Little more detail The chief is one of the folks who's certification has expired, In the State of Ohio The division of EMS is responsible for issuing and overseeing fire certification and they do have an expiration date and require you to complete con-ed and renew your certification. Secondly those who never obtained certification have been members anywhere from 4 years to 10 years. Right now a majority of the department is untrained individuals and so that prevents us from removing them. Everyone says that its a liability but no one is willing to do anything unless someone gets hurt or killed. Typical mentality of being reactive instead of proactive.
01-18-2011, 01:20 AM #13
01-18-2011, 01:22 AM #14
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
Its a private company with an elected board of officers.
01-18-2011, 01:32 AM #15
They would be the ones with the power to do something then
01-18-2011, 01:35 AM #16
- Join Date
- Aug 2002
Thats where the problem continues, The officers are the uncertified individuals. They use the mentality that we are volunteers what can they do too us
01-18-2011, 01:40 AM #17
Ok, so the board does not care, the Chief and officers do not care.
Have you considered finding a different fire department?
I mean really, what is the point?
01-18-2011, 07:21 AM #18
My advice to you is get out... now!
You may a member of a department that does not abide by any rules.
Without rules, there can be no order, no accountability, no sanity.
When, not if, the smelly green/brown doo hits the wall, this is right after it hits the fan, you do not want to be attached to this outfit in any way... trust me.
If the DOJ is really looking into their application of Federal Funds... that can have a lasting effect on the department if wrong-doing is found. Anyone that tries to pick up the pieces will face years of damage control trying to clean the name and reputation. Having already picked up the pieces in another department some years ago, I would not go through it again.
Having said all of this... I still need to ask this question:
Are you sure that you aren't one of those guys that thinks he wants the Chief Job, because you know more, have more training, more wall-paper?
I ask because many times we have seen someone come here and complain about the leadership (i.e. Chief), trying to figure out a way to get rid of him.
If this is on your mind... then please go back and read my first line again, then ignore everything else.HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL
01-18-2011, 07:48 AM #19
01-18-2011, 08:13 AM #20
Well I decided to look at the Ohio Code:
3737.66 Qualifications for firefighter or fire official.
(A) As used in this section, “firefighting agency” and “private fire company” have the same meanings as in section 9.60 of the Revised Code.
(B) No person shall claim to the public to be or act as a firefighter, volunteer firefighter, member of a fire department, chief of a fire department, or fire prevention officer unless the person is recognized as a firefighter, volunteer firefighter, member of a fire department, member of a private fire company, chief of a fire department, or fire prevention officer by the fire marshal or has received a certificate issued under former section 3303.07 or section 4765.55 of the Revised Code evidencing satisfactory completion of a firefighter training program and has been appointed by the governing board of a firefighting agency or, in the case of a volunteer firefighter, receives such a certificate within one year after appointment by the governing board of a firefighting agency.
Effective Date: 11-03-2000; 04-05-2007
3303.07 Amended and Renumbered RC 4765.55.
Effective Date: 11-12-1992
4765.55 Fire service training programs.
(A) The executive director of the state board of emergency medical services , with the advice and counsel of the firefighter and fire safety inspector training committee of the state board of emergency medical services, shall assist in the establishment and maintenance by any state agency, or any county, township, city, village, school district, or educational service center of a fire service training program for the training of all persons in positions of any fire training certification level approved by the executive director, including full-time paid firefighters, part-time paid firefighters, volunteer firefighters and, fire safety inspectors in this state. The executive director, with the advice and counsel of the committee, shall adopt rules to regulate those firefighter and fire safety inspector training programs, and other training programs approved by the executive director. The rules may include, but need not be limited to, training curriculum, certification examinations, training schedules, minimum hours of instruction, attendance requirements, required equipment and facilities, basic physical requirements, and methods of training for all persons in positions of any fire training certification level approved by the executive director, including full-time paid firefighters, part-time paid firefighters, volunteer firefighters, and fire safety inspectors. The rules adopted to regulate training programs for volunteer firefighters shall not require more than thirty-six hours of training. The executive director, with the advice and counsel of the committee, shall provide for the classification and chartering of fire service training programs in accordance with rules adopted under division (B) of this section, and may take action against any chartered training program or applicant, in accordance with rules adopted under divisions (B)(4) and (5) of this section, for failure to meet standards set by the adopted rules.
(B) The executive director, with the advice and counsel of the firefighter and fire safety inspector training committee of the state board of emergency medical services, shall adopt, and may amend or rescind, rules under Chapter 119. of the Revised Code that establish all of the following:
(1) Requirements for, and procedures for chartering, the training programs regulated by this section;
(2) Requirements for, and requirements and procedures for obtaining and renewing, an instructor certificate to teach the training programs and continuing education classes regulated by this section;
(3) Requirements for, and requirements and procedures for obtaining and renewing, any of the fire training certificates regulated by this section;
(4) Grounds and procedures for suspending, revoking, restricting, or refusing to issue or renew any of the certificates or charters regulated by this section, which grounds shall be limited to one of the following:
(a) Failure to satisfy the education or training requirements of this section;
(b) Conviction of a felony offense;
(c) Conviction of a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude;
(d) Conviction of a misdemeanor committed in the course of practice;
(e) In the case of a chartered training program or applicant, failure to meet standards set by the rules adopted under this division.
(5) Grounds and procedures for imposing and collecting fines, not to exceed one thousand dollars, in relation to actions taken under division (B)(4) of this section against persons holding certificates and charters regulated by this section, the fines to be deposited into the trauma and emergency medical services fund established under section 4513.263 of the Revised Code;
(6) Continuing education requirements for certificate holders, including a requirement that credit shall be granted for in-service training programs conducted by local entities;
(7) Procedures for considering the granting of an extension or exemption of fire service continuing education requirements;
(8) Certification cycles for which the certificates and charters regulated by this section are valid.
(C) The executive director, with the advice and counsel of the firefighter and fire safety inspector training committee of the state board of emergency medical services, shall issue or renew an instructor certificate to teach the training programs and continuing education classes regulated by this section to any applicant that the executive director determines meets the qualifications established in rules adopted under division (B) of this section, and may take disciplinary action against an instructor certificate holder or applicant in accordance with rules adopted under division (B) of this section. The executive director, with the advice and counsel of the committee, shall charter or renew the charter of any training program that the executive director determines meets the qualifications established in rules adopted under division (B) of this section, and may take disciplinary action against the holder of a charter in accordance with rules adopted under division (B) of this section.
(D) The executive director shall issue or renew a fire training certificate for a firefighter, a fire safety inspector, or another position of any fire training certification level approved by the executive director, to any applicant that the executive director determines meets the qualifications established in rules adopted under division (B) of this section and may take disciplinary actions against a certificate holder or applicant in accordance with rules adopted under division (B) of this section.
(E) Certificates issued under this section shall be on a form prescribed by the executive director, with the advice and counsel of the firefighter and fire safety inspector training committee of the state board of emergency medical services.
(F)(1) The executive director, with the advice and counsel of the firefighter and fire safety inspector training committee of the state board of emergency medical services, shall establish criteria for evaluating the standards maintained by other states and the branches of the United States military for firefighter, fire safety inspector, and fire instructor training programs, and other training programs recognized by the executive director, to determine whether the standards are equivalent to those established under this section and shall establish requirements and procedures for issuing a certificate to each person who presents proof to the executive director of having satisfactorily completed a training program that meets those standards.
(2) The executive director, with the committee’s advice and counsel, shall adopt rules establishing requirements and procedures for issuing a fire training certificate in lieu of completing a chartered training program .
(G) Nothing in this section invalidates any other section of the Revised Code relating to the fire training academy. Section 4765.11 of the Revised Code does not affect any powers and duties granted to the executive director under this section.
Effective Date: 11-03-2000; 04-05-2007
Looks like the hill got a lot steeper...HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL
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