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    Default Super Sofa Store Fire

    Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?
    We looked at it and changed a couple of policies regarding commercial operations.

    We recognized that we were not prepared for operations of that type and developed tighter criteria for commercial go/no go policies.

    We adopted a new water supply policy regarding who lays the supply line and when.

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    1800' of 2.5" hose doesn't make for a good supply line. I knew that 20 years ago and I still know that.

    It's sad that a department finds that acceptable in any situation, let alone in a building that large with the known fire load.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?
    You seem to have a weird obsession with this incident. It, and you, got pounded into the ground a couple of years ago...
    Just a typical moronic, childish, idiotic munchkin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    You seem to have a weird obsession with this incident. It, and you, got pounded into the ground a couple of years ago...
    As long as this doesn't turn into a blame game, as compared to an honest discussion about the incident and it's lessons, IMO, it's a perfectly valid discussion.

    Discussing what we have done internally as a response to this could introduce some folks to some new ideas.

    By the way, I keep a copy of this report as well as the USFA Worcester Cold Storage Fire and USFA Oakland Hills Report, as well as a couple of other USFA incident reports close at hand on my desk. Does that mean I have a weird obsession as well?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 01-21-2011 at 09:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?
    Yes, I remember it.

    No, didn't learn anything new from it.

    Nothing to apply.

    No idea if CFD changed anything as I am not a member of CFD.....nor is it up to me to suggest/make them change anything.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    LA - so you keep reports close in hand that you can use to try and justify your yard standing? You cant have it both way, if you insist on undertraining on basic tasks and tactics because you dont have the "problem" in your area, why would you keep a report on a wildland urban interface fire that had condition ( weather , building construction, and topography) that central la will never see ? Absolutely nothing wrong with studing them and gleaning info that can be adapted to your needs. But to keep them "close" ? How bout an IFSTA essentials book? I bet you will see two story houses that need laddering long before you see Santa Anna winds and hundred year old cold storage buildings. We all "cherry pick " some info , thats human nature, but dont discount useable info just so you can preach your agenda.
    ?

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    And on the sofa store fire , I use the report to instill awarness of the importance friction loss ,when teaching a water supply and also hose stream class.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    LA - so you keep reports close in hand that you can use to try and justify your yard standing? You cant have it both way, if you insist on undertraining on basic tasks and tactics because you dont have the "problem" in your area, why would you keep a report on a wildland urban interface fire that had condition ( weather , building construction, and topography) that central la will never see ? Absolutely nothing wrong with studing them and gleaning info that can be adapted to your needs. But to keep them "close" ? How bout an IFSTA essentials book? I bet you will see two story houses that need laddering long before you see Santa Anna winds and hundred year old cold storage buildings. We all "cherry pick " some info , thats human nature, but dont discount useable info just so you can preach your agenda.
    I also have a Current Essentials text, a Driver/Operator text, a Vehicle Extrication text, a Safety Officer text, a Fire Service Instructor text, 3 RIT texts .......

    The fact is as a department with a wildfire problem, especially in dry years, we can learn from Oakland Hills. We can learn from Charleston. I also have the Brent Traver report from Phoenix. Is all of that applicable to us? No. But just like FFI/II some of it applies to our operations and some of it does not.

    The reports on LODDS in commercial operations show what level of resources are required, and often those level are simply not available in my world. And yes, those reports do help me to identify when it is appropriatte not to make entry.

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    Missed my point - NEVER said dont read everything possible -I question why you would keep reports "close at hand" that reflect on incidents that have conditions that your area/ department will never face.And then state you put very little emphasis on basic training (such as ladders)because you will not need it due to your local conditions. Cant have it both ways.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    Does anybody remember that fire and learned from it? Applied what you learned? Did CFD actually change equipment, training and porcedures after that fire?
    Remember it well. Read the reports. Still deeply troubled by why 9 good men failed to exit the structure. And the reports, while concise, still don't contain a real reason why. Oh, the fast build up,overflash and outcome are all there. By WHY didn't the guys see these signs? Unfortunately the only ones with those answers can't tell us. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We looked at it and changed a couple of policies regarding commercial operations.

    We recognized that we were not prepared for operations of that type and developed tighter criteria for commercial go/no go policies.
    We adopted a new water supply policy regarding who lays the supply line and when.
    That is great and all, those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it and all that stuff. Applaud anyone who adapts to events.

    But brother, do your guys ever get tired of you putting them down on an international website?
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    That is great and all, those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it and all that stuff. Applaud anyone who adapts to events.

    But brother, do your guys ever get tired of you putting them down on an international website?
    There is a big difference between "putting them down" because of capabilities v. resources.

    While many of the members have training to operate in commercial structures, and some have experience the issue is manpower and resources.

    The manpower simply does not exist in our area within the first 10-15 minutes of a commercial fire to make a hard hit and cover all of the tasks while maintaining an adequate RIT. Our first due mutual aid has 3 folks on duty with little volunteer support. 2nd due is aq city quint. 3rd due is a minmum of 15 minutes out with a duty crew of 3 and maybe, some volunteers. The numbers just do not allow us to do all the tasks needed.

    Our closest aerial is at least 15 minutes out, with the second being at least 25.

    Water supply is an issue at most of our commercial structures.

    We get a serious commercial fire once every 7-9 years. The funding simply doesn't exist to buy resources for an event that occurs that infrequently.
    We are a department built to work residental and inciepnt commercial fires. the resources simply do not exist to be aggressive in a working commercial event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    While many of the members have training to operate in commercial structures, and some have experience the issue is manpower and resources.

    The manpower simply does not exist in our area within the first 10-15 minutes of a commercial fire to make a hard hit and cover all of the tasks while maintaining an adequate RIT. Our first due mutual aid has 3 folks on duty with little volunteer support. 2nd due is aq city quint. 3rd due is a minmum of 15 minutes out with a duty crew of 3 and maybe, some volunteers. The numbers just do not allow us to do all the tasks needed.

    Our closest aerial is at least 15 minutes out, with the second being at least 25.

    Water supply is an issue at most of our commercial structures.

    We get a serious commercial fire once every 7-9 years. The funding simply doesn't exist to buy resources for an event that occurs that infrequently.
    We are a department built to work residental and inciepnt commercial fires. the resources simply do not exist to be aggressive in a working commercial event.
    Dude I am gonna have to cry tactical foul here. First off for RIT it is a simple two in two out, nothing complicated or fancy to meet the requirement. If we send a engine out to mutual aid for a dept we send 4 that way generally it is on the fringes of our coverage area and generally we are there several minutes before the responding dept arrives. by sending 4 we have two firefighters in we have two out in gear ready.

    If water supply is truly your issue then having an aerial 5 minutes away wouldn't help. If you can't supply it then it is of no use. Unless multi story is prevalent in your area then an aerial might be questionable. You know that thing they generally put on the top of new trucks over the last 25yrs that has a petty big opening will usually allow you to lob ALOT of water on the fire, I did it for years. It might not be the flare you want to see on the 10 oclock news but it still gets the job done. It is all about BTU absorbtion, put enough water on to overcome the BTU rate and the fire goes out. Pretty simple thing here dude. So, go back to the basics in tactics and go from there. As a relief shift commander a few years back I made an initial attack on a 300+ sq ft 2 story home that had been struck by lightning. I had an initial response of 10 men 2 engines and 1 aerial. In the middle of a storm we made an initial attempt at an attack but had natural ventilation was working against us and within moments the attic area exploded across and out the opposite end and resembled and sounded like a rocket going off. Closest hydrant was 1100 ft away and by the time we established a solid water supply I pulled the guys out to do a defensive attack until we got things under control. In all reality this house was ahead of us at the time of the lightning strike and the natural ventilation quickly took away all possibilities of getting ahead without a master stream. We did get it under control, saved alot of the belongings and the homeowner was very happy in the attempt and saving of his families belongings. He was able to get his insurance to start from the original foundation to the sum of 1.5 million. So it can be done, you just got to plan and train smarter.
    Last edited by Capt387; 01-22-2011 at 12:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    Dude I am gonna have to cry tactical foul here. First off for RIT it is a simple two in two out, nothing complicated or fancy to meet the requirement. If we send a engine out to mutual aid for a dept we send 4 that way generally it is on the fringes of our coverage area and generally we are there several minutes before the responding dept arrives. by sending 4 we have two firefighters in we have two out in gear ready.
    Hold it right there trigger, I have to disagree with you on that one. RIT is FAR more complicated than 2 in 2 out. 2 in 2 out was designed as a basic safety measure for first arriving companies and NOT intended to act as an incident long solution for RIT.

    And for the most part, wether this be right wrong or indifferent, 2 in 2 out is a guideline that is often overlooked or just simply impossible. We can stretch it, and say the IC and the Pump Operator are the two out. But how reasonable is it to think the IC and PO are going to be able to act quickly enough in case of a TRUE mayday scenario. The fact is RIT these days has almost become its own specialty, and requires more to accomplish than a simple understand of 2 in 2 out . When I hear RIT, I think of a fully staffed Engine Co. with all the tools they need to handle a mayday or any emergency situation available to them on their truck. Around here, that is exactly what we get when we call for a RIT.
    Last edited by EngineCO38; 01-22-2011 at 12:37 AM. Reason: I herped so hard that I derped
    Opinions expressed by myself here are just that, mine. And not that of ANY organization or service I am affiliated with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    Hold it right there trigger, I have to disagree with you on that one. RIT is FAR more complicated than 2 in 2 out. 2 in 2 out was designed as a basic safety measure for first arriving companies and NOT intended to act as an incident long solution for RIT.

    And for the most part, wether this be right wrong or indifferent, 2 in 2 out is a guideline that is often overlooked or just simply impossible. We can stretch it, and say the IC and the Pump Operator are the two out. But how reasonable is it to think the IC and PO are going to be able to act quickly enough in case of a TRUE mayday scenario. The fact is RIT these days has almost become its own specialty, and requires more to accomplish than a simple understand of 2 in 2 out . When I hear RIT, I think of a fully staffed Engine Co. with all the tools they need to handle a mayday or any emergency situation available to them on their truck. Around here, that is exactly what we get when we call for a RIT.
    Exactly.

    A RIT for us in a commercial,building is a minimum of 4 with an optimum of 6. That's what the hands-on research by Phoenix and other places tells us is needed for an initial commercial RIT.

    As far as the aerial, that was more along the lines of low-manpower access to the roof for ventilation.

    Fact is if you start looking at primary and secondary lines, ventilation operations, forcible entry if after-hours, utility control, command, safety, exposure operations (if a strip mall or shared occupancy) and water supply at a commercial structure you at talking about a lot of folks right away for an effective attack. We simply don't have those numbers most of the time and mutual aid is limited and somewhat distant.

    During the day we'll average about 10 during the first 10 minutes, and at night probably about 15, which is simply not enough to make an interior attack on a working strip mall or box store fire. Sure, we'll have more arrive as the clock ticks but not in that 10 minute window.

    We know what we do well. We know what we don't have the resource for. That's not putting anyone down. That's keeping everyone alive.

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    here in Lafourche Parish we just had a pretty sizeable grocery store go up and our tactics were heavily influenced by the sofa store fire. We had a heavy focus on accountability and did not want anyone trapped in such a large space

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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    Hold it right there trigger, I have to disagree with you on that one. RIT is FAR more complicated than 2 in 2 out. 2 in 2 out was designed as a basic safety measure for first arriving companies and NOT intended to act as an incident long solution for RIT.

    And for the most part, wether this be right wrong or indifferent, 2 in 2 out is a guideline that is often overlooked or just simply impossible. We can stretch it, and say the IC and the Pump Operator are the two out. But how reasonable is it to think the IC and PO are going to be able to act quickly enough in case of a TRUE mayday scenario. The fact is RIT these days has almost become its own specialty, and requires more to accomplish than a simple understand of 2 in 2 out . When I hear RIT, I think of a fully staffed Engine Co. with all the tools they need to handle a mayday or any emergency situation available to them on their truck. Around here, that is exactly what we get when we call for a RIT.
    I understand all of that very well and I was referencing the beginning minutes. You have got to understand the garbage coming from LA. Here is his thinking, if he pulls up to a 200 X 200 commercial structure with some smoke showing he believes if it is his "commercial" rit requirement it has to be met before suppression meanwhile the fire is getting ahead of him. Getting inside doing an initial search and getting ahead of the fire never registers with him. Yes by all means as more people arrive evolve your RIT, not set it in stone before the first drop of water is ready to go.

    On a good day I have 11 under me for an initial response, on a bad day (like today) I have 9 under me. We staff 2 engines and a aerial. anyone else coming in is SEVERAL minutes out either call in or volunteer MA, take your pick.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Exactly.

    A RIT for us in a commercial,building is a minimum of 4 with an optimum of 6. That's what the hands-on research by Phoenix and other places tells us is needed for an initial commercial RIT.

    As far as the aerial, that was more along the lines of low-manpower access to the roof for ventilation.

    Fact is if you start looking at primary and secondary lines, ventilation operations, forcible entry if after-hours, utility control, command, safety, exposure operations (if a strip mall or shared occupancy) and water supply at a commercial structure you at talking about a lot of folks right away for an effective attack. We simply don't have those numbers most of the time and mutual aid is limited and somewhat distant.

    During the day we'll average about 10 during the first 10 minutes, and at night probably about 15, which is simply not enough to make an interior attack on a working strip mall or box store fire. Sure, we'll have more arrive as the clock ticks but not in that 10 minute window.

    We know what we do well. We know what we don't have the resource for. That's not putting anyone down. That's keeping everyone alive.

    Why set in stone roof ventilation? Ever try positive pressure? in the past 20+yrs I only recall us opening up 3-5 roofs. PPV done correctly can work like a charm. That one topic can save you 2-3 people initially
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    Why set in stone roof ventilation? Ever try positive pressure? in the past 20+yrs I only recall us opening up 3-5 roofs. PPV done correctly can work like a charm. That one topic can save you 2-3 people initially
    Are you still using that 200 X 200 commercial as your fire building?
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    I understand all of that very well and I was referencing the beginning minutes. You have got to understand the garbage coming from LA. Here is his thinking, if he pulls up to a 200 X 200 commercial structure with some smoke showing he believes if it is his "commercial" rit requirement it has to be met before suppression meanwhile the fire is getting ahead of him. Getting inside doing an initial search and getting ahead of the fire never registers with him. Yes by all means as more people arrive evolve your RIT, not set it in stone before the first drop of water is ready to go.

    On a good day I have 11 under me for an initial response, on a bad day (like today) I have 9 under me. We staff 2 engines and a aerial. anyone else coming in is SEVERAL minutes out either call in or volunteer MA, take your pick.
    Our Rit will be one of our MA Towns. That allows the use if OUR personnel for the original problem. In 20 minutes here you can have a LOT of Help. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whocares View Post
    You seem to have a weird obsession with this incident. It, and you, got pounded into the ground a couple of years ago...
    No obsession, I just can't see how a modern-day city FD operated like that. Take your pick, listen to the dispatch tapes or look at the reports.

    Too many people took my complaints and mistakingly thought I was talking about the 9 that perished. I wasn't. I was talking about the Chiefs and managers and systems which allowed that incident to happen.

    In this day and age it should not have happened...

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    Quote Originally Posted by devildog4 View Post
    No obsession, I just can't see how a modern-day city FD operated like that. Take your pick, listen to the dispatch tapes or look at the reports.

    Too many people took my complaints and mistakingly thought I was talking about the 9 that perished. I wasn't. I was talking about the Chiefs and managers and systems which allowed that incident to happen.

    In this day and age it should not have happened...
    Then you better look at ALL the components of that Disaster. No single factor or series of factors caused that loss. Rather it was a combination of "rotten" building(modified without proper authority)Complacency(for lack of a better word)Underestimating(or not seeing fire growth) of what appeared to be a SMALL OUTSIDE fire and then the domino effect that followed. It could have happened in a LOT of places and a SIMILAR event COULD happen to YOU. NOBODY I know in this business has a perfect run record,myself included. Learn,BUT DO NOT CONDEMN. T.c.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 02-26-2011 at 12:25 AM.

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    Default Sofa Super Store Fire

    Yes, we learned alot. we have a furniture store just like this one in our district and we realized just how not prepared we were. As a matter of fact, we will be doing a walkthrough there pretty soon. We also changed some of our hose loads on the Engines and increased our Box alarm responses.

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