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    Default Where do you drop the ponds?

    When your department arrives on scene, do you have a preference for where you drop port a ponds for water supply operations. Do you operate dual ponds? Do you throw in the beach ball? Do you always run steamer ops or do you do 2 1/2 inlet ops?
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    definatley NOT 2-1/2" inlets.

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    It is not possible to state an "Always" when it comes to positioning the drop tanks. Depending on driveway layout it may be best to drop it at he end and pump up the driveway to the attack pumper, OR, if there is room by the fire structure you may set the tank right by the attack pumper if there is room for tankers to manuever.

    Dual, triple, quad or more tanks depend on the size of the fire and the amount of tankers hauling.

    I have seen the ball trick and the slickest to me is a tether ball tied to the strainer. It never float away from the suction, or gets blown out of the tank.

    We always use the steamer. More water if necessary is the clue for that choice.
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    If room in the driveway we will drop the tank behind or beside the engine. The vast majority of the time is at the rear. Long or tight driveways will get a lined layed in and the draft operation will be at the road.

    Don't own any 2 1/2" suction. If a 2 1/2" is all that is needed why not nurse?

    One tank unless it we need more water then a second gets added. We don't follow the school of multiple tanks because of most driveway lay outs don't allow for it and we have enough tankers running that there is one waiting to dump about all the time. If a second tank gets added (I can't recall the last time that happened) it gets hooked to another intake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireeaterbob View Post
    When your department arrives on scene, do you have a preference for where you drop port a ponds for water supply operations.
    Often at the end of the driveway. Depending on the size of the roadway we're operating on, sometimes we'll put it in the driveway itself, right at the edge of the road. Othertimes, if we can leave a travel lane open for the shuttle, we'll put in the travel lane itself.

    Do you operate dual ponds?
    Depends on the volume of fire, but generally not. Most I've ever done is six.

    Do you throw in the beach ball?
    Generally, yes, but not always.

    Do you always run steamer ops or do you do 2 1/2 inlet ops?
    ALWAYS use 6" hard sleeve. I can't think of a department anywhere near us that even carries 2.5" hard sleeve. Don't limit your potential water supply with that antiquated stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I can't think of a department anywhere near us that even carries 2.5" hard sleeve. Don't limit your potential water supply with that antiquated stuff.
    Sigh, we do....(Kill me now can be inserted into the forefront of said admission.)
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    Due to the narrowness of our roads and many long driveways we almost always drop LDH on the way in to the scene. All of our engines carry 1200-1500 feet of 4 inch and a rural hitch.
    We will usually set up the porta tanks at the nearest intersection with the main road where the tanker shuttle can do a drop & run. This keeps the tankers on the road and allows smoother turn around .
    We start with one porta tank and add them as needed for water supply depending on fireload and water demand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    Due to the narrowness of our roads and many long driveways we almost always drop LDH on the way in to the scene. All of our engines carry 1200-1500 feet of 4 inch and a rural hitch.
    We will usually set up the porta tanks at the nearest intersection with the main road where the tanker shuttle can do a drop & run. This keeps the tankers on the road and allows smoother turn around .
    We start with one porta tank and add them as needed for water supply depending on fireload and water demand.
    I love the idea We do not carry enough ldh to do it yet.
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    Can somebody explain the beach ball/tether ball use?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB1OEV View Post
    Can somebody explain the beach ball/tether ball use?
    As the water level within the tank lowers, the water surface gets closer to the strainer. Eventually, a whirlpool will begin, which will go between the water surface and the strainer. When this happens, there's a good chance that air will be introduced into the hard sleeve, causing the prime to be lost.

    When a beach ball is put into the pond, it will be drawn to the top of the whirlpool, which will often cause the whirlpool to go away, increasing the amount of water that can be used out of the pond before the water level matches the height of the strainer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB1OEV View Post
    Can somebody explain the beach ball/tether ball use?
    Breaks up the funnel action - the vortex, above the suction line.

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    Thanks for the quick replies BoxAlarm and LVFD. I can certainly see how useful a ball could be. I bet it would be good in a shallow stream or river too, tethered of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Breaks up the funnel action - the vortex, above the suction line.
    Are you using a regular strainer or a low flow with the Ball? I understand the concept, just haven't seen where it would work as well on the low-flow strainers we use for drop / folding tank ops.

    A box strainer at draft I can see it working well.

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    The only thing that we're drafting with are high-flow low-level strainers:



    When I instruct rural water supply across the state, I sometimes encounter departments that don't have low-level strainers and are forced to use a barrell strainer instead. It's when the barrell strainer is used that I think that the ball is most advantageous in a portable pond.
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    My preference is to have the dump tank situated at the pump panel, at a 45 degree angle to the pumper. The corner of the tank can be situated right at the steamer that way. That ensures a nice angle for the hard suction, and having it at a 45 leaves room for the engineer to work.

    That's in a perfect world.

    Otherwise, wherever the heck we can find room for it. Some of our houses are in some very tough spots around here.
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    We have the 2.5" hard sleeves, but they ride with the BC. They are there in case a woods truck needs to draft at a fire (never happened that I know of). Being as the BC responds to all woods fires in his battalion, it is made available to all the woods trucks if they need it.
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    Guess "GT" & I are the "odd-balls" because 3" suction with 2 1/2" couplings is all we use for operating out of a drop tank. All of our engines are designed with rear 6" intakes. The intake is fitted with a 6" by 2 1/2" gated siamese. This way we can either nurse off a tanker or drop the dual 3" suctions into the drop tank. The suction is able to move 350+ gpm per sleeve so we are able to reach flows that will supply four preconnect 1 3/4" lines. When running tanker shuttles it is seldom possible to maintain more than 800 gpm in a shuttle. The reason for the rear intake is to keep the entire operation in a single lane. A driver can set-up the 3" to nurse or to draft from the drop tank freeing the rest of the crew to attack the fire. The valves on the siamese make it easy to switch from tank water to nurse or drop tank and back to the water tank.

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    We double up the 6" hard suction to reach around to the front of the truck and draft from there. Same concept of operating in one lane when possible and it leaves a side shot or end shot on the dump.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KuhShise View Post
    Guess "GT" & I are the "odd-balls" because 3" suction with 2 1/2" couplings is all we use for operating out of a drop tank. All of our engines are designed with rear 6" intakes. The intake is fitted with a 6" by 2 1/2" gated siamese. This way we can either nurse off a tanker or drop the dual 3" suctions into the drop tank. The suction is able to move 350+ gpm per sleeve so we are able to reach flows that will supply four preconnect 1 3/4" lines. When running tanker shuttles it is seldom possible to maintain more than 800 gpm in a shuttle. The reason for the rear intake is to keep the entire operation in a single lane. A driver can set-up the 3" to nurse or to draft from the drop tank freeing the rest of the crew to attack the fire. The valves on the siamese make it easy to switch from tank water to nurse or drop tank and back to the water tank.
    It's a BITCH to feed a Ladder pipe thru a 3" Suction. YES,our neighbors can(and do)run master stream ops from ponds. And we set 'em wherever we can.

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    Timely thread...

    Last night we were practising for our Tender Shuttle Accreditation and we ran in to a problem with using 6" suction.

    How do you switch between your on board tank and porta-tank if you do not have a MIV on your engine?

    Why not use dual 3" hard suction thru 2 1/2" inlets? You can open and close as you need run single or double depending on water level and availability.

    Any other suggestions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltspringfire View Post
    How do you switch between your on board tank and porta-tank if you do not have a MIV on your engine?
    Are you referring specifically to the Hale MIV, or any gated suction at all?

    It's easily accomplished, assuming that you have a butterfly valve on the suction inlet. Simply slowly (over a 15-30 second time frame) close the tank-to-pump while at the same time, and at the same speed, open the butterfly valve, and the suction will be drawn. We teach this to our students as a way to pull a draft (assuming you have tank water) in case the primer does't work.

    Now, if you're just hooking the suction hose directly onto the threaded suction inlet with no valve, that's going to be a lot more difficult.

    Why not use dual 3" hard suction thru 2 1/2" inlets? You can open and close as you need run single or double depending on water level and availability.
    No reason you can't per se. We just prefer to not have any restrictions on flow, such as smaller intakes, smaller plumbing, and the inherent FL that occurs with the plumbing and elbows needed to reach the impeller and/or pump manifold, depending on your pump manufacturer.
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    When working out of the apparatus tank, proceed as follows: Fill the drop tank and put the hard sleeve with the strainer into the tank. Have the P.O. set the governor in rpm if so equipped. Have 2 men on the hard sleeve and one to take the steamer cap off the engine. The other two will quickly apply the suction to the steamer. Yell to the P.O. and have him open the Tank to Pump while pulling on the primer valve. Don't change the rpm and stay on the primer until you get a hard prime back. It is best to have the attack crew in a safe place before you try a "flying" hook-up. Refill the apparatus tank for your safety.

    Switching from drop tank back to the apparatus tank as follows: The end of the suction can be kept under water, and the strainer removed. Then screw the steamer cap on the suction tube while still under water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Are you referring specifically to the Hale MIV, or any gated suction at all?

    It's easily accomplished, assuming that you have a butterfly valve on the suction inlet. Simply slowly (over a 15-30 second time frame) close the tank-to-pump while at the same time, and at the same speed, open the butterfly valve, and the suction will be drawn. We teach this to our students as a way to pull a draft (assuming you have tank water) in case the primer does't work.

    Now, if you're just hooking the suction hose directly onto the threaded suction inlet with no valve, that's going to be a lot more difficult.
    We don't currently have any valve on our header cap so ya, we've have to switch on the fly like Kuhshise described... a little tuff while you have to guarantee 250 gpm for the test.

    Has anyone tried an automatic suction valve?

    http://www.edarley.com/automatic-suction-valve.html

    Or is there something better out there? We either need to go back to the drawing board and look at dual 2 1/2 hard suction or buy a 6" valve.

    Our newest engine has an MIV with an air primer to the outside of the valve, but unfortunatley, it's not the draft engine at this location.
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    Larry Davis was agreat resource on water supply operations. His book http://www.rfi411.org/book_store.html should be mandatory reading for all in rural water operations..... Enjoy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltspringfire View Post
    Has anyone tried an automatic suction valve?
    .
    Yes work great. Otherwise known at a Hydrashield Precon valve. Obvoiusly can get a better deal from local dealer than from edarley.

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