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    Default New Rescue 5 FDNY

    Not sure if anyone has seen this yet, apart from the music its a good video, now lets see how these hold up in service !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHJXO...layer_embedded

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    Well, if they do as good as, and the guys like them as much as the rest of the FFA Apparatus currently within FDNY (especially the high pressure pumpers,) life should be pretty interesting for FFA in the next 5-10 years!
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    Quote Originally Posted by pumper8032 View Post
    Not sure if anyone has seen this yet, apart from the music its a good video, now lets see how these hold up in service !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHJXO...layer_embedded
    Whaaaat? Music was the best part of it. T.C.

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    saw her at LSU FETI equipment exhibition this past friday its an awesome truck 3 ac units just for the back!!!

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    I've been following the progress of the rescues & ladders on the FFA website...It will be interesting to see how they hold up...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Whaaaat? Music was the best part of it. T.C.
    Yeah......

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    can someone tell me why the FDNY continues to buy Ferrara if they are such garbage? Seriously, anyone?

    Look, if the FDNY wrote a tight spec, and people on here have repeatedly said that the FDNY writes a spec to meet their needs, regardless of whether it meets NFPA or not. Their inspections during manufacturing are legendary. Didn't they make Pierce take the roof off the rescue they built for them to fix some deficiency? If a company builds a rig to FDNY specs and it passes final inspection and is then accepted by the FDNY who is ultimately responsible for deficiencies in the design?

    No, I don't sell for Ferrara, I hold no Ferrara stock, and I don't belong to a department that owns a Ferrara. I just find it hilarious that unless it is a Seagrave or Pierce or Rosenbauer or whatever flavor du jour it is junk. I would suppose then that Pierce must be junk since the FDNY did not write a Pierce spec to replace all 5 rescues with Pierces.

    I would expect that all those FDs so unfortunate to own Ferraras should come on here and tell us how bad they are.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 01-31-2011 at 01:24 AM.
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    Probably because they met the warranty requirements. I do not think too many builders are interested in thier warranty requirements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InIttowinit View Post
    Probably because they met the warranty requirements. I do not think too many builders are interested in thier warranty requirements.
    Might well be the UNDERSTATEMENT of the CENTURY. But I agree. Time will tell how the units hold up. If they survive FDNY they will survive ANYWHERE. I'm particularly interested to see how the Ladders hold up. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Might well be the UNDERSTATEMENT of the CENTURY. But I agree. Time will tell how the units hold up. If they survive FDNY they will survive ANYWHERE. I'm particularly interested to see how the Ladders hold up. T.C.
    They have held up pretty well in Houston, which is a pretty busy FD. Same with Indy, and a bunch of other cities.

    Ferrera makes a fairly nice truck, especially at the top end. Will it survice NY? We'll see, but so far in the urban areas they are in, the track record is pretty good as they seem to keep reordering them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    can someone tell me why the FDNY continues to buy Ferrara if they are such garbage? Seriously, anyone?
    ...
    Simply because everyone else has given up trying to meet FDNY demands. There is a much larger market out there than 1 fire department.
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    [QUOTE=FyredUp;1244124]can someone tell me why the FDNY continues to buy Ferrara if they are such garbage? Seriously, anyone? Because FDNY does not buy or write the specs for fire apparatus. The NYC Dept of Procurement, Division of Automotive Services does.[QUOTE]

    The round of bids for the rearmounts, Seagrave and FFA were the only bidders. Seagrave beat FFA's price by $3000 per unit, but had 20+ exceptions in their proposal, mostly regarding warranty issues.

    FFA was the only bidder for the Rescue Company apparatus.

    New York City politics dictates that FDNY has very little say in both specs and final awarding of contracts. When they needs new apparatus, they advise the Division of Procurement what they need and what it has to do by giving them a basic set of specs. DOP then writes the finalized version (and if they are in a good mood will allow FDNY to review and comment before they issue the RFP's)

    Given the choice, I have heard many FDNY members state numerous times over "give us the Seagrave pumpers from 1992." Many of the old timers of course want the CF Macks back.
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    [QUOTE=FWDbuff;1244167][QUOTE=FyredUp;1244124]can someone tell me why the FDNY continues to buy Ferrara if they are such garbage? Seriously, anyone? Because FDNY does not buy or write the specs for fire apparatus. The NYC Dept of Procurement, Division of Automotive Services does.

    The round of bids for the rearmounts, Seagrave and FFA were the only bidders. Seagrave beat FFA's price by $3000 per unit, but had 20+ exceptions in their proposal, mostly regarding warranty issues.

    FFA was the only bidder for the Rescue Company apparatus.

    New York City politics dictates that FDNY has very little say in both specs and final awarding of contracts. When they needs new apparatus, they advise the Division of Procurement what they need and what it has to do by giving them a basic set of specs. DOP then writes the finalized version (and if they are in a good mood will allow FDNY to review and comment before they issue the RFP's)

    Given the choice, I have heard many FDNY members state numerous times over "give us the Seagrave pumpers from 1992." Many of the old timers of course want the CF Macks back.
    So it is your contention that the DOP has no concern for reliability or durability or fiscal responsibility to get the best deal, both cost and serviceability wise?

    And as far as the Mack CF's go damn straight. The biggest mistake ever made in fire apparatus manufacture was to stop manufacturing those rigs. Our now 37 year old CF runs and pumps like a champ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    So it is your contention that the DOP has no concern for reliability or durability or fiscal responsibility to get the best deal, both cost and serviceability wise?
    NO. In fact, quite the opposite. It is DOP's warranty requirements that forces many manufacturers (especially Seagrave) to buy TUMS by the 55 gallon drum. I don't have a copy of NYC's warranty requirements, but basically it is a bumper to bumper, no questions asked, for minimum of 5 years kind of thing. I have heard horror stories about FDNY's Motor Pool having to file warranty claim forms on something as stupid as a blown light bulb, or a screw coming loose, or a wire connection coming loose.

    And this goes for trash trucks, dump trucks, etc etc etc.

    This is why Seagrave got out of town (pardon the pun.) I am sure FFA knew what they were getting into when they bid, but it will be interesting to watch the fireworks in the next 2-4 years.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 01-31-2011 at 11:46 AM.
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    I stopped the video at several places to more closely examine the construction. Looks like the sub-frames are all inside the compartments, with the exception of the removable inner fender liners. This will keep the mud and salt out of the tubes, provide a very strong rim for mounting doors and shelving. Not sure about how the shelves will adjust to equipment mounting. The whole thing bears watching over the coming years, both for rust & corrosion and for ease of repair to compartments caused by mechanical damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    . I have heard horror stories about FDNY's Motor Pool having to file warranty claim forms on something as stupid as a blown light bulb, or a screw coming loose, or a wire connection coming loose.
    FWDbuff,

    Do you honestly think that FDNY is the Only department in North America that does that??? When I was doing parts and equipment sales I had one department that would come in every week to "Replace" warranty items, light pods from Commandlights, Flasher Modules, burned out bulbs...

    It always comes down to who is maintaining the vehicles and what pride is instilled in the Firefighters running the truck everyday, *****s going to happen granted but it Ferrara knows this and still decides to bid, all the power to them, clearly their trend is to focus on big departments

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianFyrTrks View Post
    It always comes down to who is maintaining the vehicles and what pride is instilled in the Firefighters running the truck everyday, *****s going to happen granted but it Ferrara knows this and still decides to bid, all the power to them, clearly their trend is to focus on big departments
    Do you have any direct knowledge of FDNY and how they work, operationally and administratively? How about the City of New York Department of procurement??

    Granted I am only a Buff, but I do have a well developed knowledge of the above matters through my own experiences in the City as well as having many friends on the Department, including one Batallion Chief who is well known throughout the apparatus world. The only thing that matters to NYC is the all-mighty Dollar. And if purchasing 20 trucks (hell back in the days of the CF Macks it was 50 at a time.....) and having a 5 year bumper to bumper no questions asked replace the lightbulbs means saving them all that much more money, they do it!!!!! I have seen written directives forbidding personnel from repairing or replacing even basic, simple parts in stations on any vehicle that is covered under a current warranty, even if it means taking an Engine Company from the azz end of Staten Island all the way up to the Shop in Queens for a blown bulb.....

    As for maintaining the vehicles and pride of the firefighters....The FDNY Vehicle Fleet is well over 2000 in number last time I heard.....And pride in a vehicle? Their morale is so low right now over other matters (just yesterday they lost 1 member on each of 60 engine companies) that if you suggested they take more pride in their equipment, you would probably get punched.

    Some companies do take pride in their equipment. Some companies will replace a lightbulb themselves to avoid the hassles. But don't hold blame to those who are following written directives.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Do you have any direct knowledge of FDNY and how they work, operationally and administratively? How about the City of New York Department of procurement??

    Granted I am only a Buff, but I do have a well developed knowledge of the above matters through my own experiences in the City as well as having many friends on the Department, including one Batallion Chief who is well known throughout the apparatus world. The only thing that matters to NYC is the all-mighty Dollar. And if purchasing 20 trucks (hell back in the days of the CF Macks it was 50 at a time.....) and having a 5 year bumper to bumper no questions asked replace the lightbulbs means saving them all that much more money, they do it!!!!! I have seen written directives forbidding personnel from repairing or replacing even basic, simple parts in stations on any vehicle that is covered under a current warranty, even if it means taking an Engine Company from the azz end of Staten Island all the way up to the Shop in Queens for a blown bulb.....

    As for maintaining the vehicles and pride of the firefighters....The FDNY Vehicle Fleet is well over 2000 in number last time I heard.....And pride in a vehicle? Their morale is so low right now over other matters (just yesterday they lost 1 member on each of 60 engine companies) that if you suggested they take more pride in their equipment, you would probably get punched.

    Some companies do take pride in their equipment. Some companies will replace a lightbulb themselves to avoid the hassles. But don't hold blame to those who are following written directives.
    That's some scary/frustrating stuff, there. Nothing like working for bean counters, eh? I well understand the need for fiscal responsibility, but this kind of stuff is penny wise and pound foolish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Do you have any direct knowledge of FDNY and how they work, operationally and administratively? How about the City of New York Department of procurement??

    Granted I am only a Buff, but I do have a well developed knowledge of the above matters through my own experiences in the City as well as having many friends on the Department, including one Batallion Chief who is well known throughout the apparatus world. The only thing that matters to NYC is the all-mighty Dollar. And if purchasing 20 trucks (hell back in the days of the CF Macks it was 50 at a time.....) and having a 5 year bumper to bumper no questions asked replace the lightbulbs means saving them all that much more money, they do it!!!!! I have seen written directives forbidding personnel from repairing or replacing even basic, simple parts in stations on any vehicle that is covered under a current warranty, even if it means taking an Engine Company from the azz end of Staten Island all the way up to the Shop in Queens for a blown bulb.....

    As for maintaining the vehicles and pride of the firefighters....The FDNY Vehicle Fleet is well over 2000 in number last time I heard.....And pride in a vehicle? Their morale is so low right now over other matters (just yesterday they lost 1 member on each of 60 engine companies) that if you suggested they take more pride in their equipment, you would probably get punched.

    Some companies do take pride in their equipment. Some companies will replace a lightbulb themselves to avoid the hassles. But don't hold blame to those who are following written directives.
    Listen, you have some good information and some BAD information. Many other posters have bad information too so I'm sorry to call you out, but you've had the loudest voice.


    First of all, Seagrave didn't "get outta town". They are currently filling and order, and have been for a year. This was an order for 71(!!!) engines. Doing 10s of millions of dollars worth of business makes you pretty in the game. They bid on the aerials and lost. Oh well.

    Second, no one's crying about Seagrave not building the rigs. What makes them so great? Nothing. What makes Pierce so great? Nothing and the same goes for Ferrara and everyone else. Ask the guys who work with a Ferrara engine everyday. They've got just as many complaints as the rest of us who work with a Seagrave rig everyday. Who builds the rig means little more than a different hood ornament. Everyone talks about those great old Macks! Well, they had a truck-load of issues too! Guys HATED riding in them. If they were so great, they would still be around.

    To say that the FDNY has little to do with specing a new rig is completely false. Many people of various ranks are brought in to discuss the design to the extent possible. The FDNY has very specific SOPs and a hundred and fifty years of experience with which to deside how best to design a rig. The spec is very tight, but not geared towards one particular manufacturer. Look at the Ferrara ladders. They don't resemble any other ladder built by Ferrara. It's a completely unique unit for them to build. Same with the Seagrave ladders and engines we have now. They might look similar, but they're quite different than what Seagrave builds for everyone else.

    As for repairs, we do bulb changes and such ourselves right in quarters. No engine from Staten Island is taken out of service to go to the shops for repairs, ever. We have mobile mechanics with fully outfitted trucks that will respond to the firehouse to do some pretty serious work. If a Staten Island Co. has to give up their rig to the shops in Queens for major work, they will be given a spare until the work is complete.


    Every rig built by anyone will have issues after it's abused in NYC. In it's 10 year life as a front line piece, it will probably rack up between 60,000 and 100,000 miles. That's a lot for fire apparatus.


    Lastly, I don't think your statement about pride is correct at all. We try to display plenty of pride in our rig, but that has NOTHING to do with who builds it. It has to do with having a clean rig or an engine with a well packed hose bed. That's not pride in a vehicle, that's pride in our company. Morale is not at an all time low. Sure, we lost the 5th man on 60 engine companys today and that sucks. It's going to make like a lot more difficult and dangerous for us and the public, but it pales in comparison to the tragedys that have befallen this job before. Guys made it through much worse with their chin up.
    Last edited by FDsouthbxNY; 02-01-2011 at 02:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDsouthbxNY View Post
    Listen, you have some good information and some BAD information. Many other posters have bad information too so I'm sorry to call you out, but you've had the loudest voice.
    Here, here.

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    Hey I don't mind eating a little crow when it is due. I hear some pretty wild horror stories about warranty issues from a certain Chief. And yes I am very aware that Seagrave continues to fill the order of Engines which was placed what...three years ago? Yes they bid on the aerials and lost, they lost because they took a boatload of exceptions in their bid submittal- over the DOP's warranty issues, which they were tired of dealing with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDsouthbxNY View Post
    Listen, you have some good information and some BAD information. Many other posters have bad information too so I'm sorry to call you out, but you've had the loudest voice.


    First of all, Seagrave didn't "get outta town". They are currently filling and order, and have been for a year. This was an order for 71(!!!) engines. Doing 10s of millions of dollars worth of business makes you pretty in the game. They bid on the aerials and lost. Oh well.

    Second, no one's crying about Seagrave not building the rigs. What makes them so great? Nothing. What makes Pierce so great? Nothing and the same goes for Ferrara and everyone else. Ask the guys who work with a Ferrara engine everyday. They've got just as many complaints as the rest of us who work with a Seagrave rig everyday. Who builds the rig means little more than a different hood ornament. Everyone talks about those great old Macks! Well, they had a truck-load of issues too! Guys HATED riding in them. If they were so great, they would still be around.

    To say that the FDNY has little to do with specing a new rig is completely false. Many people of various ranks are brought in to discuss the design to the extent possible. The FDNY has very specific SOPs and a hundred and fifty years of experience with which to deside how best to design a rig. The spec is very tight, but not geared towards one particular manufacturer. Look at the Ferrara ladders. They don't resemble any other ladder built by Ferrara. It's a completely unique unit for them to build. Same with the Seagrave ladders and engines we have now. They might look similar, but they're quite different than what Seagrave builds for everyone else.

    As for repairs, we do bulb changes and such ourselves right in quarters. No engine from Staten Island is taken out of service to go to the shops for repairs, ever. We have mobile mechanics with fully outfitted trucks that will respond to the firehouse to do some pretty serious work. If a Staten Island Co. has to give up their rig to the shops in Queens for major work, they will be given a spare until the work is complete.


    Every rig built by anyone will have issues after it's abused in NYC. In it's 10 year life as a front line piece, it will probably rack up between 60,000 and 100,000 miles. That's a lot for fire apparatus.


    Lastly, I don't think your statement about pride is correct at all. We try to display plenty of pride in our rig, but that has NOTHING to do with who builds it. It has to do with having a clean rig or an engine with a well packed hose bed. That's not pride in a vehicle, that's pride in our company. Morale is not at an all time low. Sure, we lost the 5th man on 60 engine companys today and that sucks. It's going to make like a lot more difficult and dangerous for us and the public, but it pales in comparison to the tragedys that have befallen this job before. Guys made it through much worse with their chin up.


    Very well said Brother. Outstanding statement!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDsouthbxNY View Post
    Listen, you have some good information and some BAD information. Many other posters have bad information too so I'm sorry to call you out, but you've had the loudest voice.


    First of all, Seagrave didn't "get outta town". They are currently filling and order, and have been for a year. This was an order for 71(!!!) engines. Doing 10s of millions of dollars worth of business makes you pretty in the game. They bid on the aerials and lost. Oh well.

    Second, no one's crying about Seagrave not building the rigs. What makes them so great? Nothing. What makes Pierce so great? Nothing and the same goes for Ferrara and everyone else. Ask the guys who work with a Ferrara engine everyday. They've got just as many complaints as the rest of us who work with a Seagrave rig everyday. Who builds the rig means little more than a different hood ornament. Everyone talks about those great old Macks! Well, they had a truck-load of issues too! Guys HATED riding in them. If they were so great, they would still be around.

    To say that the FDNY has little to do with specing a new rig is completely false. Many people of various ranks are brought in to discuss the design to the extent possible. The FDNY has very specific SOPs and a hundred and fifty years of experience with which to deside how best to design a rig. The spec is very tight, but not geared towards one particular manufacturer. Look at the Ferrara ladders. They don't resemble any other ladder built by Ferrara. It's a completely unique unit for them to build. Same with the Seagrave ladders and engines we have now. They might look similar, but they're quite different than what Seagrave builds for everyone else.

    As for repairs, we do bulb changes and such ourselves right in quarters. No engine from Staten Island is taken out of service to go to the shops for repairs, ever. We have mobile mechanics with fully outfitted trucks that will respond to the firehouse to do some pretty serious work. If a Staten Island Co. has to give up their rig to the shops in Queens for major work, they will be given a spare until the work is complete.


    Every rig built by anyone will have issues after it's abused in NYC. In it's 10 year life as a front line piece, it will probably rack up between 60,000 and 100,000 miles. That's a lot for fire apparatus.


    Lastly, I don't think your statement about pride is correct at all. We try to display plenty of pride in our rig, but that has NOTHING to do with who builds it. It has to do with having a clean rig or an engine with a well packed hose bed. That's not pride in a vehicle, that's pride in our company. Morale is not at an all time low. Sure, we lost the 5th man on 60 engine companys today and that sucks. It's going to make like a lot more difficult and dangerous for us and the public, but it pales in comparison to the tragedys that have befallen this job before. Guys made it through much worse with their chin up.

    Huh? What a novel concept. An actual member of the department whose rigs we are discussing coming into a topic and telling what the actual story is instead of second or third hand renderings. I do find it interesting that he did support my position that the FDNY line personnel do have major input on what the specifications are for their apparatus.

    Thank you for the inside story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    And as far as the Mack CF's go damn straight. The biggest mistake ever made in fire apparatus manufacture was to stop manufacturing those rigs. Our now 37 year old CF runs and pumps like a champ.
    Hey, don't forget the old ALF Century pumpers, mainly the late 60's through the early 80's. The '76 ALF that Dalton still uses for a reserve unit will just about out-pump any newer engine around, except superpumpers off course. When almost a whole city block burned in downtown the old girl was out pumping every newer engine Dalton had. The older apparatus are beasts, even if they are smallr, haha.

    The old Mack CF's are awesome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Hey, don't forget the old ALF Century pumpers, mainly the late 60's through the early 80's. The '76 ALF that Dalton still uses for a reserve unit will just about out-pump any newer engine around, except superpumpers off course. When almost a whole city block burned in downtown the old girl was out pumping every newer engine Dalton had. The older apparatus are beasts, even if they are smallr, haha.

    The old Mack CF's are awesome!
    I have to say my fascination and admiration for the Mack CF's, and to a lesser degree the C Model Macks, are from my childhood. My Dad was on The Winfield Illinois Fire Department from the late 50's through 1971 and I remember going up there with him and they had the C Model pumper and then added 2 or 3 CF's (sorry fuzzy memory from 40 years ago). Honestly when I was a youngster I believed Mack and firetruck meant the same thing. In a way, I kind of still believe that. Mack had a long and illustrious fire service history.

    As far as the ALF's go I was on a volly department that had a repowered 900 Series ALF pumper and while it had it's quirks it was a workhorse. Kind of cool working on a classic like that. The older ALF's, 700, 800, 900, Century, and gasp! even the Century 2000 series ALF's, all had a classic look about them that made them readily identifiable. Sadly that is lost on the all too close to the same boxes we see today.

    I just don't see any of the new breed of apparatus, with all of them electronic, computer operated, controls lasting 20, 30, even 40 years like some of the absolutel workhorses of the past.
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