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  1. #1
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    Default Ifsac

    Who on here has it or is looking into it, what do you think about the idea or for that fact your department/state commission... how does your state or department rate your FF's we have a 150 and 400 here in Kentucky


  2. #2
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ...... View Post
    Who on here has it or is looking into it, what do you think about the idea or for that fact your department/state commission... how does your state or department rate your FF's we have a 150 and 400 here in Kentucky
    Let me be the first to say....HUH? I don't have a clue what the heck you are even asking.

    Wisconsin is an IFSAC state when it comes to firefighter certification. I hold 4 IFSAC certs from when I worked for the military as a CFR firefighter. I see no disadvantage to IFSAC certification and only advantages, if it leads to a national certification process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Let me be the first to say....HUH? I don't have a clue what the heck you are even asking.

    Wisconsin is an IFSAC state when it comes to firefighter certification. I hold 4 IFSAC certs from when I worked for the military as a CFR firefighter. I see no disadvantage to IFSAC certification and only advantages, if it leads to a national certification process.
    Fyred, let me help him out here. KY has two levels of certification, Volunteer requires 150 hrs, career 400 hrs. After getting to those levels you can opt to taking the IFSAC testing. KY has the hour requirement as a basis as the program has a slight flaw in going to it entirely in that if you are good at taking tests and you luck out in the practical you were certified with little to no practical experience. To go anything past the basic volunteer/career certification to such as an instructor you first have to have FF1, FF2 IFSAC certification or like me be old enough, I am the only Level 2 instructors in my department.

    KY also approaches training different than most of the states that border us in the fact that the Fire Commission has developed a take the training to the firefighter approach in that there are training "regions" that go to the dept to train rather than require the firefighter to go to a centralized academy. Training props such as Firefighter rescue and survival and flashover simulators can be taken to the dept.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  4. #4
    Forum Member PaladinKnight's Avatar
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    The question was not well stated and leaves a lot to be desired.

    The IFSAC Certificate Assembly provides accreditation to entities that certify the competency of and issue certificates to individuals who pass examinations based on the National Fire Protection Association fire service professional qualifications and other standards approved by the Assembly.

    Certification, and to what level, varies from state to state. There are no disadvantages to IFSTC.

    http://www.ifsac.org/
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    Let me add to a previous statement by Capt387. FF Level I and FF Level II .......

    (I mean no disrespect nor do I want to start a career/vollie debate)

    Level II is not just for career. I am level II and I am not career.

    Next for those not in KY, it is not simply having 150/400 hours of training. You must have 150/400 hours of training across a wide variety of different subject. You could have 3000 hours of training but if you do not have the 3 hours of sprinkler training then you are not Level I.

    As for IFSAC, it is a good notion but, as already said someone can get lucky. I think there should be more requirements than just IFSAC to be IFSAC I/II. There should be a certain number of years of experience. That might not work but there has to be something more than a multiple choice test and 5 practicals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    if it leads to a national certification process.
    Stealing Gonzo's thunder by saying BING-FREAKING-O!!!!!!! Thats the whole trick. IFSAC/Pro-Board were developed to try and come up with some sort of consensus.....Make sure everyone is trained to some sort of minimal standards. But you have some states (Like Florida....) who want to rule their own little empires.

    Or you have meat heads who think they don't need to train in ground ladders because they have buildings over 1 story in height......Never mind the fact that they could get called to another jurisdiction in an extreme emergency.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  7. #7
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Stealing Gonzo's thunder by saying BING-FREAKING-O!!!!!!! Thats the whole trick. IFSAC/Pro-Board were developed to try and come up with some sort of consensus.....Make sure everyone is trained to some sort of minimal standards. But you have some states (Like Florida....) who want to rule their own little empires.

    Or you have meat heads who think they don't need to train in ground ladders because they have buildings over 1 story in height......Never mind the fact that they could get called to another jurisdiction in an extreme emergency.
    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."

    You know why it will never happen? Because frankly, it makes far too much sense. It would create ONE single national curriculum for certification and too many little czars of fire training are unilling to give up that power they lord over their state's fire departments. I am not saying the individual states couldn't come up with an instate program instead of certification, but ALL certification would be based on that one national curriculum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."

    You know why it will never happen? Because frankly, it makes far too much sense. It would create ONE single national curriculum for certification and too many little czars of fire training are unilling to give up that power they lord over their state's fire departments. I am not saying the individual states couldn't come up with an instate program instead of certification, but ALL certification would be based on that one national curriculum.
    If you remeber they tried that many moons ago in the "Journeyman" type of a program.... Fell on its face. Thee are too many "versions" of curriculum now; IFSTA, DELMAR, NOSSI (I think I heard it as a form of Hazmat training recognized. Forgive the spelling). Too much criss crossing and not one of the first two teach it all. I had to do an admin and orginization class the other night in my VFD and had planned on using IFSTA as that is whats in the new computer at the station but had to resort to my Delmar information to use in my class.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302 View Post
    That might not work but there has to be something more than a multiple choice test and 5 practicals.

    you said it.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down?” (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

  10. #10
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    If you remeber they tried that many moons ago in the "Journeyman" type of a program.... Fell on its face. Thee are too many "versions" of curriculum now; IFSTA, DELMAR, NOSSI (I think I heard it as a form of Hazmat training recognized. Forgive the spelling). Too much criss crossing and not one of the first two teach it all. I had to do an admin and orginization class the other night in my VFD and had planned on using IFSTA as that is whats in the new computer at the station but had to resort to my Delmar information to use in my class.
    IF a NATIONAL CERTIFICATION program was launched IFSTA, Delmar, and the NFPA version of the Essentials book would be scrambling to have a book published to meet that curriculum. Only a fool wouldn't want to be the first book on the market with that National curriculum in it. Think of the money to be made!


    In order for National cert program to work it needs to be set up similar to what most states run now. FF1, FF2, Officer, Driver/Operator, Inspector, Instructor and whatever else with a specific curriculum ofr each unit, with a specific minimum number of hoursfor each unit. It can work IF the fire service wants it bad enough and there lies the problem. Once again WE are our own worst enemy.
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  11. #11
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    Add Michigan to the foolish states protecting their turf by refusing to join IFSAC/NPQ. They are exceedingly generous though, in that if you are already IFSAC certified they will allow you to challenge the test, so long as you are sponsored by a dept in the state AND are willing to cough up the fee. Last I checked, the fee was the same as the cost of the academy-somewhere in the $3K range.

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    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."
    Actually, California is not a state that recognizes IFSAC, at least not currently. I have heard rumors that it's going to happen but highly doubt it since the State likes their cert. money.

    My issues with IFSAC is that the videos and online classes are not to the current most up to date tactics, strategies and methods. An example is Aerial; many local areas assign the Truck Company to LOUVEEERS (Ladder, Overhaul, Utilities, Ventilation, Exposures/Elevated M.S., Extension, Extinguishment, Rescue/Extrication and Salvage) functions but that is not addressed in the curriculum. I honestly like that the CSFM (California State Fire Marshal) has higher standards, offer updated training and pull their information from represenatives that actually still work the job.

    I'm not saying that having a training standard across the board is bad, but if we are going to do that then let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training. I laugh everytime I watch a DOD Pumper Training and see Air Force guys going interior with Proximity Suits on. I know they do that, but who in the municipal side or non DOD side does that? That's just one small example of what I'm talking about..... I could go on, but my fingers are tired...... LOL.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

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  13. #13
    Forum Member gunnyv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    I laugh everytime I watch a DOD Pumper Training and see Air Force guys going interior with Proximity Suits on. I know they do that, but who in the municipal side or non DOD side does that? That's just one small example of what I'm talking about..... I could go on, but my fingers are tired...... LOL.
    Yep, and the DoD, which follows the "NFPA is GOD and we must follow it to the letter" ignores the parts of 1500 and 1971 that states proximity gear is not certified for interior firefighting.

    Sorry, went off topic-pet peeve of mine.
    Last edited by gunnyv; 02-07-2011 at 05:37 PM. Reason: Add'l info

  14. #14
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    Actually, California is not a state that recognizes IFSAC, at least not currently. I have heard rumors that it's going to happen but highly doubt it since the State likes their cert. money.

    My issues with IFSAC is that the videos and online classes are not to the current most up to date tactics, strategies and methods. An example is Aerial; many local areas assign the Truck Company to LOUVEEERS (Ladder, Overhaul, Utilities, Ventilation, Exposures/Elevated M.S., Extension, Extinguishment, Rescue/Extrication and Salvage) functions but that is not addressed in the curriculum. I honestly like that the CSFM (California State Fire Marshal) has higher standards, offer updated training and pull their information from represenatives that actually still work the job.

    I'm not saying that having a training standard across the board is bad, but if we are going to do that then let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training. I laugh everytime I watch a DOD Pumper Training and see Air Force guys going interior with Proximity Suits on. I know they do that, but who in the municipal side or non DOD side does that? That's just one small example of what I'm talking about..... I could go on, but my fingers are tired...... LOL.
    I wasn't implying California had IFSAC Accredidation right now. I was simply giving an example of what could happen if ALL states had it.

    You are a prime example of why this type of system will never occur. Immediately you chose to point out the failings of the idea instead of stating there will be obvious kinks to work out. IF a national consensus standard was was approved all training materials would have to adhere to that standard. My guess is that they wouldn't apply out of date training and equipment to a brand new standard.

    As far as LOUVEEERS goes there are hundred of acronymns for different sets of tactics. Honestly I have never heard that particular one used before.

    As far as the DOD goes, it is what it is. The military and the federal government are exempt and exceptioned from so many rules and laws that it is simply ludicrous. I used to be a civilian CFR firefighter on a WiANG base and we went through 3 or 4 different ensembles when I was there. My Favorite dual prupose stuf was the structural gear with the removable silver out garment. When you were assigned crash you wore the silver outer over your structural gear, when assigned structural you took the silvers off. I found it even funnier that our firefighting boots specifically said on them "NOT FOR CFR FIREFIGHTING!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    As far as LOUVEEERS goes there are hundred of acronymns for different sets of tactics. Honestly I have never heard that particular one used before.
    Yup. Neither have I. Truck work is truck work, no matter what acronym you use.
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  16. #16
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Yup. Neither have I. Truck work is truck work, no matter what acronym you use.
    Exactly...
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    You are a prime example of why this type of system will never occur. Immediately you chose to point out the failings of the idea instead of stating there will be obvious kinks to work out.
    Ahhhhhhh, I re-read what I posted and if that's your interpretation then so be it.

    I'm not saying that having a training standard across the board is bad, but if we are going to do that then let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training.
    Is this statement what your talking about? I'm a little confused here.....

    As far as me pointing out the failings of the idea, when did I do that? I'm all for a National Standard, but let's make it the most update to date information out there, let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training is what I said.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

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  18. #18
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    Ahhhhhhh, I re-read what I posted and if that's your interpretation then so be it.

    Look, I have been on dozens of committees for multitudes of things and generally the hardest people to come to a consensus with are thgose that immediately go to negative aspects of the project. If that wasn't your intent I apologize. I have grown weary of naysayers that always have reason and excuses why something won;t work, but rarely any better idea.


    Is this statement what your talking about? I'm a little confused here.....

    As far as me pointing out the failings of the idea, when did I do that? I'm all for a National Standard, but let's make it the most update to date information out there, let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training is what I said.

    I would think this would be so obvious as to not need mentioning. The idea of a NATIONAL standard would be up to date GENERIC training. Not regional specialized training or use of acronyms specific to your area. A 24 foot ladder gets raised the same in Mississippi as it does in Minnesota as it does in Massachusetts. There are several hoseloads that can be taught and any special whizz bang loads used in a specific FD can be taught there instead of wasting valuable time teaching 37 different ways to load preconnects. Generic, standardized skills, usabe everywhere with local FD tweaking if needed. Seems too good to be true.

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    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."
    To me, a piece of paper does not mean that somebody can operate safely in this job. If somebody is new to my Crew I treat them with respect and respect their previous training, but I am still going to take them out and watch them pull hose, throw ladders, perform FF drags, pull supply line and other basic skills that I want my FFs to master.

    A National Standard would be great to have but the little "tricks of the trade" that each of us learn from doing this job is also what is needed to be passed-on.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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    Perhaps we agree more than we disagree.
    As I see it, we agree totally..... I'm not a naysayer by any means, just feel that if we are going to have a National Standard let's make it the best Standard possible.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

    Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

    Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

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