View Poll Results: IFSAC

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Thread: Ifsac

  1. #1
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    Default Ifsac

    Who on here has it or is looking into it, what do you think about the idea or for that fact your department/state commission... how does your state or department rate your FF's we have a 150 and 400 here in Kentucky

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    Quote Originally Posted by ...... View Post
    Who on here has it or is looking into it, what do you think about the idea or for that fact your department/state commission... how does your state or department rate your FF's we have a 150 and 400 here in Kentucky
    Let me be the first to say....HUH? I don't have a clue what the heck you are even asking.

    Wisconsin is an IFSAC state when it comes to firefighter certification. I hold 4 IFSAC certs from when I worked for the military as a CFR firefighter. I see no disadvantage to IFSAC certification and only advantages, if it leads to a national certification process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Let me be the first to say....HUH? I don't have a clue what the heck you are even asking.

    Wisconsin is an IFSAC state when it comes to firefighter certification. I hold 4 IFSAC certs from when I worked for the military as a CFR firefighter. I see no disadvantage to IFSAC certification and only advantages, if it leads to a national certification process.
    Fyred, let me help him out here. KY has two levels of certification, Volunteer requires 150 hrs, career 400 hrs. After getting to those levels you can opt to taking the IFSAC testing. KY has the hour requirement as a basis as the program has a slight flaw in going to it entirely in that if you are good at taking tests and you luck out in the practical you were certified with little to no practical experience. To go anything past the basic volunteer/career certification to such as an instructor you first have to have FF1, FF2 IFSAC certification or like me be old enough, I am the only Level 2 instructors in my department.

    KY also approaches training different than most of the states that border us in the fact that the Fire Commission has developed a take the training to the firefighter approach in that there are training "regions" that go to the dept to train rather than require the firefighter to go to a centralized academy. Training props such as Firefighter rescue and survival and flashover simulators can be taken to the dept.
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    The question was not well stated and leaves a lot to be desired.

    The IFSAC Certificate Assembly provides accreditation to entities that certify the competency of and issue certificates to individuals who pass examinations based on the National Fire Protection Association fire service professional qualifications and other standards approved by the Assembly.

    Certification, and to what level, varies from state to state. There are no disadvantages to IFSTC.

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    Let me add to a previous statement by Capt387. FF Level I and FF Level II .......

    (I mean no disrespect nor do I want to start a career/vollie debate)

    Level II is not just for career. I am level II and I am not career.

    Next for those not in KY, it is not simply having 150/400 hours of training. You must have 150/400 hours of training across a wide variety of different subject. You could have 3000 hours of training but if you do not have the 3 hours of sprinkler training then you are not Level I.

    As for IFSAC, it is a good notion but, as already said someone can get lucky. I think there should be more requirements than just IFSAC to be IFSAC I/II. There should be a certain number of years of experience. That might not work but there has to be something more than a multiple choice test and 5 practicals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    if it leads to a national certification process.
    Stealing Gonzo's thunder by saying BING-FREAKING-O!!!!!!! Thats the whole trick. IFSAC/Pro-Board were developed to try and come up with some sort of consensus.....Make sure everyone is trained to some sort of minimal standards. But you have some states (Like Florida....) who want to rule their own little empires.

    Or you have meat heads who think they don't need to train in ground ladders because they have buildings over 1 story in height......Never mind the fact that they could get called to another jurisdiction in an extreme emergency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Stealing Gonzo's thunder by saying BING-FREAKING-O!!!!!!! Thats the whole trick. IFSAC/Pro-Board were developed to try and come up with some sort of consensus.....Make sure everyone is trained to some sort of minimal standards. But you have some states (Like Florida....) who want to rule their own little empires.

    Or you have meat heads who think they don't need to train in ground ladders because they have buildings over 1 story in height......Never mind the fact that they could get called to another jurisdiction in an extreme emergency.
    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."

    You know why it will never happen? Because frankly, it makes far too much sense. It would create ONE single national curriculum for certification and too many little czars of fire training are unilling to give up that power they lord over their state's fire departments. I am not saying the individual states couldn't come up with an instate program instead of certification, but ALL certification would be based on that one national curriculum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."

    You know why it will never happen? Because frankly, it makes far too much sense. It would create ONE single national curriculum for certification and too many little czars of fire training are unilling to give up that power they lord over their state's fire departments. I am not saying the individual states couldn't come up with an instate program instead of certification, but ALL certification would be based on that one national curriculum.
    If you remeber they tried that many moons ago in the "Journeyman" type of a program.... Fell on its face. Thee are too many "versions" of curriculum now; IFSTA, DELMAR, NOSSI (I think I heard it as a form of Hazmat training recognized. Forgive the spelling). Too much criss crossing and not one of the first two teach it all. I had to do an admin and orginization class the other night in my VFD and had planned on using IFSTA as that is whats in the new computer at the station but had to resort to my Delmar information to use in my class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSFD9302 View Post
    That might not work but there has to be something more than a multiple choice test and 5 practicals.

    you said it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    If you remeber they tried that many moons ago in the "Journeyman" type of a program.... Fell on its face. Thee are too many "versions" of curriculum now; IFSTA, DELMAR, NOSSI (I think I heard it as a form of Hazmat training recognized. Forgive the spelling). Too much criss crossing and not one of the first two teach it all. I had to do an admin and orginization class the other night in my VFD and had planned on using IFSTA as that is whats in the new computer at the station but had to resort to my Delmar information to use in my class.
    IF a NATIONAL CERTIFICATION program was launched IFSTA, Delmar, and the NFPA version of the Essentials book would be scrambling to have a book published to meet that curriculum. Only a fool wouldn't want to be the first book on the market with that National curriculum in it. Think of the money to be made!


    In order for National cert program to work it needs to be set up similar to what most states run now. FF1, FF2, Officer, Driver/Operator, Inspector, Instructor and whatever else with a specific curriculum ofr each unit, with a specific minimum number of hoursfor each unit. It can work IF the fire service wants it bad enough and there lies the problem. Once again WE are our own worst enemy.
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    Add Michigan to the foolish states protecting their turf by refusing to join IFSAC/NPQ. They are exceedingly generous though, in that if you are already IFSAC certified they will allow you to challenge the test, so long as you are sponsored by a dept in the state AND are willing to cough up the fee. Last I checked, the fee was the same as the cost of the academy-somewhere in the $3K range.

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    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."
    Actually, California is not a state that recognizes IFSAC, at least not currently. I have heard rumors that it's going to happen but highly doubt it since the State likes their cert. money.

    My issues with IFSAC is that the videos and online classes are not to the current most up to date tactics, strategies and methods. An example is Aerial; many local areas assign the Truck Company to LOUVEEERS (Ladder, Overhaul, Utilities, Ventilation, Exposures/Elevated M.S., Extension, Extinguishment, Rescue/Extrication and Salvage) functions but that is not addressed in the curriculum. I honestly like that the CSFM (California State Fire Marshal) has higher standards, offer updated training and pull their information from represenatives that actually still work the job.

    I'm not saying that having a training standard across the board is bad, but if we are going to do that then let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training. I laugh everytime I watch a DOD Pumper Training and see Air Force guys going interior with Proximity Suits on. I know they do that, but who in the municipal side or non DOD side does that? That's just one small example of what I'm talking about..... I could go on, but my fingers are tired...... LOL.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    I laugh everytime I watch a DOD Pumper Training and see Air Force guys going interior with Proximity Suits on. I know they do that, but who in the municipal side or non DOD side does that? That's just one small example of what I'm talking about..... I could go on, but my fingers are tired...... LOL.
    Yep, and the DoD, which follows the "NFPA is GOD and we must follow it to the letter" ignores the parts of 1500 and 1971 that states proximity gear is not certified for interior firefighting.

    Sorry, went off topic-pet peeve of mine.
    Last edited by gunnyv; 02-07-2011 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Add'l info

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    Actually, California is not a state that recognizes IFSAC, at least not currently. I have heard rumors that it's going to happen but highly doubt it since the State likes their cert. money.

    My issues with IFSAC is that the videos and online classes are not to the current most up to date tactics, strategies and methods. An example is Aerial; many local areas assign the Truck Company to LOUVEEERS (Ladder, Overhaul, Utilities, Ventilation, Exposures/Elevated M.S., Extension, Extinguishment, Rescue/Extrication and Salvage) functions but that is not addressed in the curriculum. I honestly like that the CSFM (California State Fire Marshal) has higher standards, offer updated training and pull their information from represenatives that actually still work the job.

    I'm not saying that having a training standard across the board is bad, but if we are going to do that then let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training. I laugh everytime I watch a DOD Pumper Training and see Air Force guys going interior with Proximity Suits on. I know they do that, but who in the municipal side or non DOD side does that? That's just one small example of what I'm talking about..... I could go on, but my fingers are tired...... LOL.
    I wasn't implying California had IFSAC Accredidation right now. I was simply giving an example of what could happen if ALL states had it.

    You are a prime example of why this type of system will never occur. Immediately you chose to point out the failings of the idea instead of stating there will be obvious kinks to work out. IF a national consensus standard was was approved all training materials would have to adhere to that standard. My guess is that they wouldn't apply out of date training and equipment to a brand new standard.

    As far as LOUVEEERS goes there are hundred of acronymns for different sets of tactics. Honestly I have never heard that particular one used before.

    As far as the DOD goes, it is what it is. The military and the federal government are exempt and exceptioned from so many rules and laws that it is simply ludicrous. I used to be a civilian CFR firefighter on a WiANG base and we went through 3 or 4 different ensembles when I was there. My Favorite dual prupose stuf was the structural gear with the removable silver out garment. When you were assigned crash you wore the silver outer over your structural gear, when assigned structural you took the silvers off. I found it even funnier that our firefighting boots specifically said on them "NOT FOR CFR FIREFIGHTING!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    As far as LOUVEEERS goes there are hundred of acronymns for different sets of tactics. Honestly I have never heard that particular one used before.
    Yup. Neither have I. Truck work is truck work, no matter what acronym you use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Yup. Neither have I. Truck work is truck work, no matter what acronym you use.
    Exactly...
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    You are a prime example of why this type of system will never occur. Immediately you chose to point out the failings of the idea instead of stating there will be obvious kinks to work out.
    Ahhhhhhh, I re-read what I posted and if that's your interpretation then so be it.

    I'm not saying that having a training standard across the board is bad, but if we are going to do that then let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training.
    Is this statement what your talking about? I'm a little confused here.....

    As far as me pointing out the failings of the idea, when did I do that? I'm all for a National Standard, but let's make it the most update to date information out there, let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training is what I said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    Ahhhhhhh, I re-read what I posted and if that's your interpretation then so be it.

    Look, I have been on dozens of committees for multitudes of things and generally the hardest people to come to a consensus with are thgose that immediately go to negative aspects of the project. If that wasn't your intent I apologize. I have grown weary of naysayers that always have reason and excuses why something won;t work, but rarely any better idea.


    Is this statement what your talking about? I'm a little confused here.....

    As far as me pointing out the failings of the idea, when did I do that? I'm all for a National Standard, but let's make it the most update to date information out there, let's pool the experts together and form the minimum training standards based on their experience, knowledge and training is what I said.

    I would think this would be so obvious as to not need mentioning. The idea of a NATIONAL standard would be up to date GENERIC training. Not regional specialized training or use of acronyms specific to your area. A 24 foot ladder gets raised the same in Mississippi as it does in Minnesota as it does in Massachusetts. There are several hoseloads that can be taught and any special whizz bang loads used in a specific FD can be taught there instead of wasting valuable time teaching 37 different ways to load preconnects. Generic, standardized skills, usabe everywhere with local FD tweaking if needed. Seems too good to be true.

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    Yep, imagine the horror if you could take FF1, FF2, Officer Certification, and Driver/Operator Certification in Wisconsin move to Washington, or California, or Maryland, or Massachusetts, or heaven forbid even Louisiana and say "HEY, I am already NATIONALLY CERTIFIED so I don't need to start over taking classes like a wet behind the ears rookie."
    To me, a piece of paper does not mean that somebody can operate safely in this job. If somebody is new to my Crew I treat them with respect and respect their previous training, but I am still going to take them out and watch them pull hose, throw ladders, perform FF drags, pull supply line and other basic skills that I want my FFs to master.

    A National Standard would be great to have but the little "tricks of the trade" that each of us learn from doing this job is also what is needed to be passed-on.
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    Perhaps we agree more than we disagree.
    As I see it, we agree totally..... I'm not a naysayer by any means, just feel that if we are going to have a National Standard let's make it the best Standard possible.
    "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyboy View Post
    To me, a piece of paper does not mean that somebody can operate safely in this job. If somebody is new to my Crew I treat them with respect and respect their previous training, but I am still going to take them out and watch them pull hose, throw ladders, perform FF drags, pull supply line and other basic skills that I want my FFs to master.

    A National Standard would be great to have but the little "tricks of the trade" that each of us learn from doing this job is also what is needed to be passed-on.
    Of course a piece of paper doesn't automatically mean they can do the job. What it does mean is 2 thngs, a basic, generic level of training applicable everywhere, and that they had the initiative to do it. We can't assume anyone fresh from school with no real world experience is completely competent at any job. But we also can't assume because a guy has 20 years on the job that he knows a damn thing more than he learned in recruit school either.

    Tricks of the trade are local in house things to teach the firefighters about LOCAL quirks. Not something you teach nation wide. Simply a trick of the trade applicable to Nome Alaska may have no real world application in Phoenix.
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    Default this is good

    I am sorry about the confusion BUT everyone seems to have caught on this is what I was looking for thanks for replying..



    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Of course a piece of paper doesn't automatically mean they can do the job. What it does mean is 2 thngs, a basic, generic level of training applicable everywhere, and that they had the initiative to do it. We can't assume anyone fresh from school with no real world experience is completely competent at any job. But we also can't assume because a guy has 20 years on the job that he knows a damn thing more than he learned in recruit school either.

    Tricks of the trade are local in house things to teach the firefighters about LOCAL quirks. Not something you teach nation wide. Simply a trick of the trade applicable to Nome Alaska may have no real world application in Phoenix.
    exactly I think that if you have your ifsac FF1 or FF2 or whatever than it would be the same as a FD's academy where they teach you the basics among other things sure as FyredUp says they may not be competent with the job but its a start that they should know the basics JMO... let me ask this what if the testing was based off one book company say IFSTA yes there would be mouny to be made or should it be left open to all the others.....

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    This was touched on briefly by a few here, but...

    IFSTA does not state anywhere that your training ends in the last chapter. The training and course material gives you is the baseline down to earth basic knowledge. The department you serve with builds on that knowledge to develop the firefighter... you do it their way. The Certification without experience is worthless. The Experience without Certification is dangerous.

    I can take a guy that has been around many years that never took a day of classroom training and find he has much of the knowledge and skills to do the job. But without the paper, he is just another talented guy. I can't use him until he is certified.

    There are some depts that will put this guy to work, but if the crap hits the fan, the first thing that will be investigated is his certification to do the job. If he is not certified, then he is not qualified. But the same argument can be said for the guys with lots of paper without the experience.

    And as stated, a national benchmark is a long time off. In the meantime, IFSTA, IFSAC and some others are moving as far as they can within NFPA Standards. Everytime the ball moves forward in the name of safety or progress, opposition rises up to challenge the change. And while money can be made within a State, there is no motivation to migrate.

    I've been involved with IFSTA, IFSAC & Proboard for years. Nothing that they have provided to me has killed me yet. But a lot of it has saved my life.

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    Most folks here know my feelings on the need for certification for initial firefighter training, so I won't go into that again.

    Given that there are clear objectives for FFI, FFII and the like, there simply should be no need for IFSAC and ProBoard. Bottom line, the learning objectives are there for every state to follow, yet, in many cases the certification is not transferable from state to state without retesting, or in some cases, retaking the class. The point of a standardized national certification is portability from state to state, yet as Fryred has said, this process has become hijacked by the state fire training agencies who want to make each state their own little fifedom.

    I support certification training as secondary post-initial training for those looking to gain further knowledge or for promotion beyond the firefighter level. I would support it much more if it was what it was meant to be - a national standard.

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    The fact is we have had the National Registry for EMTs for decades and while some states don't except it the overwhelming majority not only recognize it but demand it for initial licensure and some for continuing licensure.

    Even Louisiana requires National Registry for EMTs for initial licensure and then demands it for continued licensure. Funny thing is I guess a splint goes on the same in Bossier Parish as it does in Madison Wisconsin. A cervical collar and KED go on the same in Phoenix Arizona as it does in Bossier Parish. An IV gets started the same in Bossier Parish as it does in Billings Montana. How can that be? It is obvious that no NATIONAL standard can work because each locality MUST have the control to do it their own way. Right? RIIIIIIIIIIGHT!

    Why is it EMS has standardized NATIONAL instruction to meet a NATIONAL STANDARD for thier required skills but the fire service has to have multiple individualized standards state by state by state. Simply unbelievable.

    Someone please explain to me why basic ladder skills can't be taught the same all over the country to a single standard? How about forcible entry? Hose and nozzle operations? SCBA usage? Fire behavior? Salvage? Ventilation? Building construction? Overhaul? Auto Extrication? And more that is escaping me right now? Of course we will still need OJT and continuing education and training to keep our skills sharp and current but to me the advantages of a portable, national standard far outweigh the hardships.

    MABAS is becoming HUGE in my area and I can see a day when in order to respond to a MABAS box you will need to be certified at some level. It is ludicrous to call for help and have people show up with inadequate levels of training to perform properly on the fire ground.

    I see only benefits, and no downside, to a comprehensive, well though out, up to date National Standard, using the most modern and up to date teaching aids and methods.
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