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    Default New Firefighting Helmet Concepts - looking for some feedback

    Hey all,

    I'm a current Industrial Design student at University of Cincinnati. My current project is to design improved head protection equipment in a specific field. I've been interviewing firefighters and working on concepts for innovation in fire helmets.

    I'd like to preface the following ideas by saying that I do not intend to encroach upon or disrespect the icon of the traditional firefighters helmet in any way. All of my research thus far suggests that the style and shape of the helmet should be left well enough alone.

    This being said, it would be extremely helpful to have any and all feedback from the anyone here at Firehouse.com


    Concept 1:



    Concept 2:



    Concept 3:





    What, if any, parts of these concepts do you like/seem plausible and why?

    What parts, if any, of these concepts do you dislike/seem unnecessary?

    What would you like to see that isn't here? What changes would you make?


    Thank for your input,
    Blake

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    I have zero trust in any helmet/SCBA facepiece that connect to one another. Helmets have a habit of getting knocked around, whether by being bumped, debris dropped on them, entangled, etc.....Sometimes when the schit hits the fan guys even manage to lose their helmets. I want my respiratory protection solidly clamped to my face with straps or netting around my head, and the seal firmly against my face.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Too many different styles/ sizes of faces.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I have zero trust in any helmet/SCBA facepiece that connect to one another. Helmets have a habit of getting knocked around, whether by being bumped, debris dropped on them, entangled, etc.....Sometimes when the schit hits the fan guys even manage to lose their helmets. I want my respiratory protection solidly clamped to my face with straps or netting around my head, and the seal firmly against my face.
    Thanks for that, scrapping the direct attachment of the SCBA. could you say a bit more about what you've seen happen when someone's helmet comes off?

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    Concept 1 - The 'out in the open' ratchet system seems like it could be an issue (if it comes in contact with anything there is a risk of inadvertent tightening/loosening of the head band). I think a design like this would also cause the helmet to sit lower, causing the rear brim to sit lower and finally causing interference with an SCBA tank (which is already a problem for me at least with a helmet that sits pretty high right now...my brim comes in contact with the top of my tank when looking up.)

    Concept 2 - The SCBA directly attached to the shroud and/or helmet - same concerns as those listed above...directly attached to my face is the only way I would want it. There tends to be some slack between the suspension and the helmet's shell.

    Concept 3 - I like the built in 'storage' system.
    The light holder you might think about incorporating it under the brim.
    As for the 'shelf' on the top you might want to think about drainage, as well as dimensions/shape that these would be? Door chalks come in different sizes/styles, from nails, wood triangles to cherry bombs (dowel rods with a nail in it to hook to a door hinge)...you might need to focus your research on the type/style of equipment that some guys stash on their helmets and design to that.
    Last edited by ljm; 02-08-2011 at 12:08 PM. Reason: general lack of spelling ability....

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    Okay dislikes:

    The ratchet assembly for adjustment coming out of the back of the helmet places the adjustment band too high on the head. That band usually rests on the lower back of the head.

    The side ear protectors are unnecessary bulk and weight. With a hood and the normal ear flaps of a helmet the protection is adequate. In the summer or any other warm weather where I am not involved in actual firefighting activities I will fold the ear flaps up to allow for more airflow and cooling. For normal use of an SCBA facepiece it would interfere with the seal by not allowing the mask to be pulled back tight enough. Ibelieve it would also intefere with hearing by muffling sound.

    My personal opinion only here as I have no personal experience with this type of system but the idea of my facepiece being hooked to my helmet is something I am not interested in. If something hits my helmet and dislodges it my mask is sutomatically dislodged from my face. If the mask is independent and my helmet is dislodged my mask may remain inplace or in place enough for me to recover. Also unless you have a better plan than lacing straps from the helmet through the facepiece harness to put it on the process will be too slow and impossible to do with gloves on. Firefighters do not always put their facepieces on while outside of the building, in fact we may go deep into a large building before se put them on, both to save air and to allow for better visibility. So if the process to put on the mask is slow or cumbersome it is simply unacceptable.


    Likes:

    The disappearing visor to protect it from damage. Too bad it is already on the market.

    The molded in flashlight holder. Once again too bad it is already on the market.

    The utility space is an interesting concept. How would you determine what is the appropriate size?

    I like the idea of the accessory rail for attaching lights. Just not on a hard shell ear covering.


    What would I like to see?

    A helmet offering maximum protection in a lighter shell. Helmet weight is an issue to many.

    A helmet that sits lower on the head. Many times the newer helmets sit so high on the head as to look almost clownish.

    Eye protection that doesn't melt, deform, distort and look like crap after a couple of good working fires.

    AND...I want all that in a traditional styled helmet with a true leather look.


    Well, I hope I didn't crush your dream. I have 34 years in the fire service and well, some might say I am a tad bit opinionated!

    Good luck with your project.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
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    For starters and not in any order

    - thermo plastic melt and melt readily. If you want one that doesn't distort at lower temps you need to consider a fiberglass type blend. Guys on here are going to laugh but years ago I saw a state instructor in a new white Chieftain. Fast forward 2yrs it was paper sack brown and had the black ring and reflective stripes burned away but the helmet was intact with no bubling. My dept recently opened a burn building at our training center and the very first fire (controlled) we had 2 Thermo plastics destroyed.

    - personally dont like the ratchet outside of helmet

    - ear protection plausable. some of the detrements would be listening for radio traffic or listening for victims during search.

    - to integrate SCBA mask into helmet would require a change in NFPA1852. It has been tried before in the marketplace to gain interest about 15-20 yrs ago when the first "space" helmet came out.

    Not sure if it was part of the project but the chin cup in the pics if it is was part was taken out of the standard around 1986-87

    - as for the retracting face shield I could take it or leave it
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Well, I hope I didn't crush your dream. I have 34 years in the fire service and well, some might say I am a tad bit opinionated!
    Don't worry Brother we all are. Anyone that lives IN the fire service and not just survives the fire service will be. The other night in training at my VFD I was told the very same thing
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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    European Standard MSA Gallet Helmets
    Last edited by fallujahff; 02-08-2011 at 05:53 PM.
    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

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    Quick note after taking a RIT course. I am not so sure I would like to have "utility space" on my helmet in certain situations. It leaves extra room for your helmet to get caught up in wires and/or other loose objects. Would love to hear what some of the more experienced guys think of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    Don't worry Brother we all are. Anyone that lives IN the fire service and not just survives the fire service will be. The other night in training at my VFD I was told the very same thing
    Heck, I was teaching RIT to my volly FD last night and I admitting being opinionated, egotistical, and even at times a little arrogant. No one said "Oh NO Don, not you!"
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    and maybe if you could design a helmet with faceshield wipers and defrosters. Those would come in handy
    Fire scenes: A well organized cluster F......
    These are my veiws and opinions.....Im just saying

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    I think too many people are trying to redesign something that doesn't need to be redesigned.
    The fire helmet has been around for hundreds of years and from the old style to the current, not much has changed (traditional style, no tupperware).

    Like FyredUp said, maybe making them lighter, stronger and allowing them to sit lower, but to add pockets, light holders and other gadgets is just un necessary.

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    You asked this exact question months ago, under a different name and many, many people responded and gave great info. So why are you posting the same question again as opposed to bumoing the old thread?:

    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117675 (Fire helmet Concepts)

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    Quote Originally Posted by WD6956 View Post
    You asked this exact question months ago, under a different name and many, many people responded and gave great info. So why are you posting the same question again as opposed to bumoing the old thread?:

    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117675 (Fire helmet Concepts)
    Tom Gatlin was a student in the previous class. I apologize for the repetition, but several students have worked on the same project at different times, and may even post here again.

    Thanks to everyone else - This is extremely helpful information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deluge059 View Post
    I think too many people are trying to redesign something that doesn't need to be redesigned.
    The fire helmet has been around for hundreds of years and from the old style to the current, not much has changed (traditional style, no tupperware).

    Like FyredUp said, maybe making them lighter, stronger and allowing them to sit lower, but to add pockets, light holders and other gadgets is just un necessary.
    I actually think it's a good idea to sit back and look at things and think how can you improve on them. It doesn't mean you have to come up with an improvement, but we should always be on the look out on how to make things better.

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    Question

    I've read the comments from those who don't like the concept of having the SCBA mount directly to the helmet, and your reasons make sense. However, I am also aware that the Europeans have been doing this for awhile, and I wonder how do they deal with this issue? Surely if your helmet getting bumped, causing the attached SCBA to become dislodged from your face is an issue here in America, it must also be an issue in Europe. Yet they've been using this concept for awhile.
    -Justin J. "JJR512" Rebbert

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I have zero trust in any helmet/SCBA facepiece that connect to one another...
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    Concept 1 - The 'out in the open' ratchet system seems like it could be an issue (if it comes in contact with anything there is a risk of inadvertent tightening/loosening of the head band)...
    Not to mention an entanglement hazard. You can remove

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    ...you might need to focus your research on the type/style of equipment that some guys stash on their helmets and design to that.
    I think with all the diffrent types of equipment prefered by individuals, this might be impractical.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    However, I am also aware that the Europeans have been doing this for awhile, and I wonder how do they deal with this issue? Surely if your helmet getting bumped, causing the attached SCBA to become dislodged from your face is an issue here in America, it must also be an issue in Europe. Yet they've been using this concept for awhile.
    They also use vastly diffrent tactics, the English drive on the wrong side of the road, and they add an extra U in colour.


    Blake- What I would like to see some concepts of is a helmet or facepiece with an intergrated thermal camera that would project on an eyepiece or the facesheild. Much like the pilot helmet mounted monicule sight for an AH-64 Apache.

    Not saying I would want to wear this, but it would be cool.
    ~Drew
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    I've read the comments from those who don't like the concept of having the SCBA mount directly to the helmet, and your reasons make sense. However, I am also aware that the Europeans have been doing this for awhile, and I wonder how do they deal with this issue? Surely if your helmet getting bumped, causing the attached SCBA to become dislodged from your face is an issue here in America, it must also be an issue in Europe. Yet they've been using this concept for awhile.
    See my pictures above--the first photo is the MSA Gallet Helmet/Mask fitting. As you can see the Europeans have a completely different take on helmets (the Darth Vader Look). The helmet is more like a football helmet than a lid so I don't think the problem of getting dislodged is as big an issue (though maybe some of our Euro brethren can chime in).
    "When you are safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure-when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home"

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I have zero trust in any helmet/SCBA facepiece that connect to one another. Helmets have a habit of getting knocked around, whether by being bumped, debris dropped on them, entangled, etc.....Sometimes when the schit hits the fan guys even manage to lose their helmets. I want my respiratory protection solidly clamped to my face with straps or netting around my head, and the seal firmly against my face.
    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    Concept 1 - The 'out in the open' ratchet system seems like it could be an issue (if it comes in contact with anything there is a risk of inadvertent tightening/loosening of the head band). I think a design like this would also cause the helmet to sit lower, causing the rear brim to sit lower and finally causing interference with an SCBA tank (which is already a problem for me at least with a helmet that sits pretty high right now...my brim comes in contact with the top of my tank when looking up.)

    Concept 2 - The SCBA directly attached to the shroud and/or helmet - same concerns as those listed above...directly attached to my face is the only way I would want it. There tends to be some slack between the suspension and the helmet's shell.

    Concept 3 - I like the built in 'storage' system.
    The light holder you might think about incorporating it under the brim.
    As for the 'shelf' on the top you might want to think about drainage, as well as dimensions/shape that these would be? Door chalks come in different sizes/styles, from nails, wood triangles to cherry bombs (dowel rods with a nail in it to hook to a door hinge)...you might need to focus your research on the type/style of equipment that some guys stash on their helmets and design to that.
    I'll keep in mind the height/interference with SCBA, and scrap the external ratchet. Would something more universal, like a flexible strap similar to the inner tubing some guys use, be more appropriate for the storage? (given that its not flammable) Thanks for your thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Okay dislikes:

    The ratchet assembly for adjustment coming out of the back of the helmet places the adjustment band too high on the head. That band usually rests on the lower back of the head.

    The side ear protectors are unnecessary bulk and weight. With a hood and the normal ear flaps of a helmet the protection is adequate. In the summer or any other warm weather where I am not involved in actual firefighting activities I will fold the ear flaps up to allow for more airflow and cooling. For normal use of an SCBA facepiece it would interfere with the seal by not allowing the mask to be pulled back tight enough. Ibelieve it would also intefere with hearing by muffling sound.

    My personal opinion only here as I have no personal experience with this type of system but the idea of my facepiece being hooked to my helmet is something I am not interested in. If something hits my helmet and dislodges it my mask is sutomatically dislodged from my face. If the mask is independent and my helmet is dislodged my mask may remain inplace or in place enough for me to recover. Also unless you have a better plan than lacing straps from the helmet through the facepiece harness to put it on the process will be too slow and impossible to do with gloves on. Firefighters do not always put their facepieces on while outside of the building, in fact we may go deep into a large building before se put them on, both to save air and to allow for better visibility. So if the process to put on the mask is slow or cumbersome it is simply unacceptable.


    Likes:

    The disappearing visor to protect it from damage. Too bad it is already on the market.

    The molded in flashlight holder. Once again too bad it is already on the market.

    The utility space is an interesting concept. How would you determine what is the appropriate size?

    I like the idea of the accessory rail for attaching lights. Just not on a hard shell ear covering.


    What would I like to see?

    A helmet offering maximum protection in a lighter shell. Helmet weight is an issue to many.

    A helmet that sits lower on the head. Many times the newer helmets sit so high on the head as to look almost clownish.

    Eye protection that doesn't melt, deform, distort and look like crap after a couple of good working fires.

    AND...I want all that in a traditional styled helmet with a true leather look.


    Well, I hope I didn't crush your dream. I have 34 years in the fire service and well, some might say I am a tad bit opinionated!

    Good luck with your project.
    How would you feel if the ear protection was removable, say, hooks onto the inner suspension or something similar? The material would be durable, but flexible, as to satisfy the lower weight requirement and sensitive to temperature. It would allow the use of the rail system as well, and would be designed in a way not to impair hearing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt387 View Post
    For starters and not in any order

    - thermo plastic melt and melt readily. If you want one that doesn't distort at lower temps you need to consider a fiberglass type blend. Guys on here are going to laugh but years ago I saw a state instructor in a new white Chieftain. Fast forward 2yrs it was paper sack brown and had the black ring and reflective stripes burned away but the helmet was intact with no bubling. My dept recently opened a burn building at our training center and the very first fire (controlled) we had 2 Thermo plastics destroyed.

    - personally dont like the ratchet outside of helmet

    - ear protection plausable. some of the detrements would be listening for radio traffic or listening for victims during search.

    - to integrate SCBA mask into helmet would require a change in NFPA1852. It has been tried before in the marketplace to gain interest about 15-20 yrs ago when the first "space" helmet came out.

    Not sure if it was part of the project but the chin cup in the pics if it is was part was taken out of the standard around 1986-87

    - as for the retracting face shield I could take it or leave it
    Great to know about NFPA1852 .. I've scrapped the direct attachment of the SCBA. I heard from some that they prefer the thermoplastic because they can see the damage, as opposed to the fiberglass possibly having "soft spots" that go unnoticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGonzalez View Post
    Quick note after taking a RIT course. I am not so sure I would like to have "utility space" on my helmet in certain situations. It leaves extra room for your helmet to get caught up in wires and/or other loose objects. Would love to hear what some of the more experienced guys think of it.
    If it were to be similar to the current inner tubing/rubber that some guys use, but integrated in the helmet in such a way to minimize the chances of entanglement, etc., how would you feel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chewy911 View Post
    and maybe if you could design a helmet with faceshield wipers and defrosters. Those would come in handy
    haha, airbags and headlights too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deluge059 View Post
    I think too many people are trying to redesign something that doesn't need to be redesigned.
    The fire helmet has been around for hundreds of years and from the old style to the current, not much has changed (traditional style, no tupperware).

    Like FyredUp said, maybe making them lighter, stronger and allowing them to sit lower, but to add pockets, light holders and other gadgets is just un necessary.
    I'm glad you said something, I am attempting to keep this as close to the traditional lid as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJR512 View Post
    I've read the comments from those who don't like the concept of having the SCBA mount directly to the helmet, and your reasons make sense. However, I am also aware that the Europeans have been doing this for awhile, and I wonder how do they deal with this issue? Surely if your helmet getting bumped, causing the attached SCBA to become dislodged from your face is an issue here in America, it must also be an issue in Europe. Yet they've been using this concept for awhile.
    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Agreed.



    Not to mention an entanglement hazard. You can remove



    I think with all the diffrent types of equipment prefered by individuals, this might be impractical.



    They also use vastly diffrent tactics, the English drive on the wrong side of the road, and they add an extra U in colour.


    Blake- What I would like to see some concepts of is a helmet or facepiece with an intergrated thermal camera that would project on an eyepiece or the facesheild. Much like the pilot helmet mounted monicule sight for an AH-64 Apache.

    Not saying I would want to wear this, but it would be cool.
    This would be coo! - I may include this, or some kind of Helmet Heads Up Display in my final concepts, but I do have to think about cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by fallujahff View Post
    See my pictures above--the first photo is the MSA Gallet Helmet/Mask fitting. As you can see the Europeans have a completely different take on helmets (the Darth Vader Look). The helmet is more like a football helmet than a lid so I don't think the problem of getting dislodged is as big an issue (though maybe some of our Euro brethren can chime in).
    Apparently these can have some serious flaws too - embers and hot water sliding down into the suit rather than directed away from the firefighter like the current traditional design. They do have their advantages as well.

    Thanks to everybody for their input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandusbp View Post
    Great to know about NFPA1852.
    Actually studying what the NFPA Gestapo requires would be a totally different college course. And more boring than anthro-f'ing-pology.


    Quote Originally Posted by vandusbp View Post
    I'm glad you said something, I am attempting to keep this as close to the traditional lid as possible.
    Please. To the American fire service the traditional helmet is iconic as Uncle Sam, the Statue of Liberty or the Superbowl is to the rest of America.


    Quote Originally Posted by vandusbp View Post
    Apparently these can have some serious flaws too - embers and hot water sliding down into the suit rather than directed away from the firefighter like the current traditional design. They do have their advantages as well.
    They are high-tech, very good for impact resistance and heat protection. The European fire tactics and their building construction (go hand-in-hand) are very different. The brim on the back of our helmets were designed to mitigate hazards from burning material and hot water.

    Have you looked into the history of the American fire helmet. good quick one here ---> http://www.oceancityfools.com/text/helmet_history.html

    Firefighters, as stated are very traditional people. Marketing something that plays on tradition more than fancy options will get much more buy-in.

    Quote Originally Posted by vandusbp View Post
    Thanks to everybody for their input.[/B]
    No problem, good luck.
    Last edited by FiremanLyman; 02-09-2011 at 08:30 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by vandusbp View Post

    Great to know about NFPA1852 .. I've scrapped the direct attachment of the SCBA. I heard from some that they prefer the thermoplastic because they can see the damage, as opposed to the fiberglass possibly having "soft spots" that go unnoticed.
    Ever think about Carbon Fiber? Think about it, Indy cars running at the speeds they do and stay together. Carbon Fiber will definitely handle the heat. I saw a prototype a few years made of CF and it was lighter and had to be much stronger.
    Am I being effective in my efforts or am I merely showing up in my fireman costume to watch a house burn down? (Joe Brown, www.justlookingbusy.wordpress.com)

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