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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerialguy11 View Post
    OK so I know I'm not the only one seeing this and yet it was only 3 bidders!
    Care to share the names/brand and I had a Top Mount Enclosed CAFS Pumper bid on a Custom and was a performance spec with about the same spread with 6 bidders.

    Interesting to see what those FD's who bought brand X and paid X $ and then see the same builder low ball a similiar truck whether a Pumper or Aerial and wonder geez they didn't even kiss me...or give me Kool Aid refreshment
    In the first engine I ever specked I found out that If and when done correctly, the bid process comes down to far more than just price. This Engine came in with 2 bids, under boro policy says there must be 3 so the bids were never opened, tossed in the shredder and the Bidding process was re-opened for another month and again only 2 bids came in. At this point we were now allowed to continue on. The bids were E-One at 500K and KME at 420K. Now keep in mind we went over our spec word for word with 4 companies, Sutphen, E-One, Pierce and KME. (Seagrave never returned phone calls) Anyway, we opened the bids are started pouring through them, comparing them to the bid speck. Now we understood that (for exsample) E-One uses 3/16" aluminum plate and KME uses 1/8" But since we speced 3/16" (for strength reasons not mfg reasons) KME should have bid an "Exception" and explained why 1/8" was sufficiant. But they didn't. there were other issues they missed, like the mobile data terminal (we handed them the toughbook specifications at our sit down with them). My point is, that there can be any number of reasons one rig comes in cheaper than the other. I don't know the specifics here but Im just sayin.
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    Default Bid Deficiencies

    We had a bid for an aerial ladder where one bidder was $30,000 below everyone else. We did a spread sheet with our specs with each section a line in the spread sheet. We evaluated the bids for compliance to our specs and if not complient, what would it cost the bidder to be complient. (Estimated)
    Items I remember that were were not to spec by the low bid were size of alternator, size of water tank, number and size of crosslays and 20 other items. When evaluted this way the low bid would have been $50,000 higher to be complient. So we bought the low complient bid which was $20,000 less than the so called low bid. Many bidders will try to smoke screen the areas they are not complient with.

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    KME is great for providing bids that are almost completely non-compliant and then say that the department should review them " in the spirit of competitive bidding". They don't take total exception to the bid and just hope their price is low enough to get noticed.You'll really see this in a bid where a town council or mayor will make the final purchase decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sven73 View Post
    KME is great for providing bids that are almost completely non-compliant and then say that the department should review them " in the spirit of competitive bidding". They don't take total exception to the bid and just hope their price is low enough to get noticed.You'll really see this in a bid where a town council or mayor will make the final purchase decision.
    Just as famous as Piece is for providing written specs to departments for inclusion into their written specs so that they favor Piece?
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 02-19-2011 at 10:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sven73 View Post
    KME is great for providing bids that are almost completely non-compliant and then say that the department should review them " in the spirit of competitive bidding". They don't take total exception to the bid and just hope their price is low enough to get noticed.You'll really see this in a bid where a town council or mayor will make the final purchase decision.
    And that's really not being competitive. They're not competing on what was asked for in the spec. They'd rather change the fire department's operation to meet what they have to sell. They do it by approaching people who don't understand what the department is trying to accomplish.

    We had that happen with ours in 2006. A different manufacturer (two, actually) pulled the same thing. Their price was way low but what they were offering didn't even resemble what we wanted, and wouldn't have met our needs. The only way we could have considered their proposal would have been to throw out our entire spec, rewrite it around theirs, and rebid. At that point, after removing any proprietary items, everyone else would have been able to underbid them.

    Since we already had four good, compliant proposals, we were able to go with one that met our needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Just as famous as Piece is for providing written specs to departments for inclusion into their written specs so that they favor Piece?
    (Almost) everyone does that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    (Almost) everyone does that.
    True, but they are not as obvious about it.
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    Actually Buff, no one is holding a gun to the truck committee"s head and forcing them to accept any manufacturers spec to be published. If the department does that with Pierce, E-1, KME, Crimson, Ferrara, or anyone else, the decision was made by the fire department, not the manufacturer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sven73 View Post
    Actually Buff, no one is holding a gun to the truck committee"s head and forcing them to accept any manufacturers spec to be published. If the department does that with Pierce, E-1, KME, Crimson, Ferrara, or anyone else, the decision was made by the fire department, not the manufacturer.
    Ahahahaahahaahaha. Ok, whatever. I'll reserve further comment. Maybe it's time for Pa. to do one of those investigations (that the State of NJ did) in Bucks County.
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    Buff-?????

    Are you usaying someone is holding a gun to someone's head on a truck committee to purchase their truck? ( tongue in cheek )

    If the company in question is a typical Pa department then I assume they do not have to go to bid? They can buy from whomever they want, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    A ladder with a 2K pump in a Borough with hydrants that could probably barely give you 1K???

    You didn't get the kool aid. You guys all got the chip implants.
    Lmao, is that why I woke up with a shaved spot on my head?! We have good hydrants in the boro, I believe the last of the 6" and 4" is gone, and plenty of new 8-12" mains runnin through. I was hoping no one would see that pump under the roll up doors.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Ahahahaahahaahaha. Ok, whatever. I'll reserve further comment. Maybe it's time for Pa. to do one of those investigations (that the State of NJ did) in Bucks County.
    Hmmm, that could be interesting. For what its worth, next door will be taking delivery of a Seagraves mid year! Should be a kick azz truck too, can't wait to see it. But you're right, with huge trucks come huge price tags, along with the "Cause I Can" mentality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sven73 View Post
    Buff-?????

    Are you usaying someone is holding a gun to someone's head on a truck committee to purchase their truck? ( tongue in cheek )

    If the company in question is a typical Pa department then I assume they do not have to go to bid? They can buy from whomever they want, correct?
    Sven, I'm not going to say anything more, because you and I both know what goes on.

    Company XYZ wants Brand P, but is required by their municipality to go to bid.

    So Brand P sales person gives XYZ them the wording for their spec to ensure that it is exclusive to Brand P, thereby causing other bidders to have to take exceptions, getting the bid thrown out, the end result being that Brand P gets awarded the Bid by XYZ. There is no gun involved.

    But no, that would never happen, especially in Bucks and Montgomery Counties.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtg55 View Post
    I was hoping no one would see that pump under the roll up doors.....
    Lock them doors when you have curious visitors in the station....I even warned you I was coming!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Lock them doors when you have curious visitors in the station....I even warned you I was coming!
    Hahaha, that you did. It's a good truck, just a bit "confused". Thats all.


    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Company XYZ wants Brand P, but is required by their municipality to go to bid
    Pirsch still makes fire trucks?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Sven, I'm not going to say anything more, because you and I both know what goes on.

    Company XYZ wants Brand P, but is required by their municipality to go to bid.

    So Brand P sales person gives XYZ them the wording for their spec to ensure that it is exclusive to Brand P, thereby causing other bidders to have to take exceptions, getting the bid thrown out, the end result being that Brand P gets awarded the Bid by XYZ. There is no gun involved.

    But no, that would never happen, especially in Bucks and Montgomery Counties.
    I would say more often than not it is the dept. that prefers brand X and asks for help from brand X to ensure the dept gets what they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don120 View Post
    I would say more often than not it is the dept. that prefers brand X and asks for help from brand X to ensure the dept gets what they want.
    In Montgomery and Bucks Counties, they dont HAVE to ask for help!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtg55 View Post
    Pirsch still makes fire trucks?!
    No, but it only took Pierce 50 years to figure out something Pirsch knew all those years ago. That Aluminum makes for good aerial ladders. ha ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    No, but it only took Pierce 50 years to figure out something Pirsch knew all those years ago. That Aluminum makes for good aerial ladders. ha ha
    Both have good qualities for building an aerial, the one serious downfall of steel is the corrosion inside the extrusions from condensation. It's the hidden enemy of steel ladders that has directly resulted in steel aerial failures. Granted its on older apparatus, but when its your ***** 100 ft in the air, things like that matter.

    I do find it funny that they offer aluminum now, being that I sat across the table from pierce reps who said with confidence that aluminum aerials kill firefighters. Mfg's can point out all the "cons" of the competitor compared to their product, but don't be ridiculous and make ***** up.
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    Smile

    I can not recall ever driving across and Aluminum bridge before, however there is always a first time.

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    Rooftoptrucky, are actually saying "I do find it funny that they offer aluminum now, being that I sat across the table from pierce reps who said with confidence that aluminum aerials kill firefighters. Mfg's can point out all the "cons" of the competitor compared to their product, but don't be ridiculous and make ***** up."
    The Pierce rep for the Monroeville, PA area is a good friend of mine and I find it very hard to believe that he would make such a statement. I suggest that you follow the last line that you posted.
    Last edited by Engine153; 03-02-2011 at 11:28 AM.

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    I cannot recall ever flying in a steel airplane, and I don't think there will be a first time.

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    Yea I do see what you mean, However the Daily Maintenance is very expensive to keep them rivet popers up in the sky.

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