1. #26
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    as many of you have stated .........not all the hydrants have the stortz on the Steamer .......slowly they come .........so ya gotta "adapt" and overcome.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
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    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    First order of business is to KEEP THE DALMATIAN IN THE CAB! Just can't stand grabbing PEE to spin off the hydrant caps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1 View Post
    as many of you have stated .........not all the hydrants have the stortz on the Steamer .......slowly they come .........so ya gotta "adapt" and overcome.
    Quite honestly I don't know if I WANT storz on the steamer of the hydrants, given that we hit them with HUMATS 70% of the time. Don't think I'd feel comfy with a HUMAT sitting on the hydrant with 1/3rd of a turn.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Quite honestly I don't know if I WANT storz on the steamer of the hydrants, given that we hit them with HUMATS 70% of the time. Don't think I'd feel comfy with a HUMAT sitting on the hydrant with 1/3rd of a turn.
    Elton John's rocket man comes to mind....
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Quite honestly I don't know if I WANT storz on the steamer of the hydrants, given that we hit them with HUMATS 70% of the time. Don't think I'd feel comfy with a HUMAT sitting on the hydrant with 1/3rd of a turn.
    we aint got NO stinkin HUMATS ! .......
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

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    Anyone tested head to head flow of HUMAT vs TFT Oasis or (other relay valve (AWG/Kochek Hydrassist))? Application is relay pump at middle of LDH lay (vs at hydrant). Relative friction loss, function, reliability, etc.

    Going to be purchasing with AFG $ so looking at options. Will be 5"S on all four sides. HUMAT is tried/true claims to beat TFT. TFT claims great things and looks like better design/style for our application.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Anyone tested head to head flow of HUMAT vs TFT Oasis or (other relay valve (AWG/Kochek Hydrassist))? Application is relay pump at middle of LDH lay (vs at hydrant). Relative friction loss, function, reliability, etc.

    Going to be purchasing with AFG $ so looking at options. Will be 5"S on all four sides. HUMAT is tried/true claims to beat TFT. TFT claims great things and looks like better design/style for our application.
    Ask Chiefengineer11, I am almost positive we did this a few years ago. He might not be available for a few days, I know he is enroute to Breda to pick something up to run to Baltimore for the show.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Ask Chiefengineer11, I am almost positive we did this a few years ago. He might not be available for a few days, I know he is enroute to Breda to pick something up to run to Baltimore for the show.
    I'm back for a day, then off to Breda to get a demo. I'm not aware of any tests, but it would be a great thing to have, to know which units have the least friction loss. Also, which are the easiest to operate. Right now Humats do the job quite well. If anyone would do any testing, it would be Oreland Fire Co./Supplee Bros. Certainly, if they had, Bill would have reported it at our Engineers' Association meeting. But maybe we can con him into it. I know they're big fans of "Z" valves for relay work, but not for hanging on hydrants.

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    "Z" valve? Have not heard that term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    "Z" valve? Have not heard that term.
    I was just looking in Harrington's catalog for one, but I couldn't find it.

    It's a relay valve shaped, as you might imagine, like a Z. If I remember correctly, when it's not being used to boost pressure, water flows in one of the points on the Z, through and out the other point. When it's being used to boost or support a line, a line to an engine is connected to one of the ends and the line from the engine goes to the other end. A valve in the center is switched so that the water is diverted into the engine, pressure is boosted and sent back out. It's very efficient, especially in the boost mode. Then, the water is moving through it in a straight line.

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    We hook up to hydrants with a 10' length of 5" hard suction.

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    Humats have an internal 3.5" Chamber. There is a constriction through the body and the lower chamber. This increases with volume. Don't have a number for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB1OEV View Post
    We hook up to hydrants with a 10' length of 5" hard suction.
    Try that in our area, you come away with two couplings and a shredded pile of rubber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    I'm back for a day, then off to Breda to get a demo. I'm not aware of any tests, but it would be a great thing to have, to know which units have the least friction loss. Also, which are the easiest to operate. Right now Humats do the job quite well. If anyone would do any testing, it would be Oreland Fire Co./Supplee Bros. Certainly, if they had, Bill would have reported it at our Engineers' Association meeting. But maybe we can con him into it. I know they're big fans of "Z" valves for relay work, but not for hanging on hydrants.
    Google came up with this info. Apparently HUMAT lower friction loss than Akron. Which is logical based on their catalog info which says Akron has 3-1/2" bore and Humat 4".

    http://firelink.monster.com/training...lay?print=true

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck_3 View Post
    Humats have an internal 3.5" Chamber. There is a constriction through the body and the lower chamber. This increases with volume. Don't have a number for you.
    I don't have any numbers either, but at really high flows it could be significant. Somewhere in my stuff I have a graph for 3-1/2" (3" waterway) Waterous valves, which I know will pass well over 2000 gpm. When supporting a hydrant with a Humat, the water paths are in a straight line, passing through two of the 3-1/2" passages. We've never tested for actual loss, but we've never come up short on water, either. With 185 psi on 20" and 22" mains, the losses probably are doing us a favor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    Try that in our area, you come away with two couplings and a shredded pile of rubber.
    You probably have pressure in your hydrants. All of ours are the no pressure PVC type.

    I should have said we use the flexible hard suction, we still have quite a bit of the solid rubber stuff in the attic though. It looks better in parades to have the original equipment on the trucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB1OEV View Post
    You probably have pressure in your hydrants.
    As in lots of it.

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    Default Z valve

    Here is a picture of a Z valve. As CE11 mentioned only one company in our area has this valve. It is very efficient for use in line for long relays. Has similiar FL to a large flow hydrasist. Pumps the same as a hydrasist.

    It has an advantage over a hydrasist in that it can also be used at the drafting site. Our LDH Task Force has a procedure to place a second engine at the draft site ready to draft as a back-up in case of a problem with the draft engine - usually cleaning stainers. Since the Z valve has a gate on the side inlets the second engine can be ready and jump into service without a problem. You can pump the boosting inlet without connecting to the boosting engine supply side of the valve. This cannot be done with the hydrasist or the Humat. A jumbo gated WYE 5" x 2 - 5" Stortz will can the same thing for the drafting situation.

    Mike
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    I have read with some interest, opinions about scrapping 3" line owing to the use of 5" supply lines. Let me say there is a place for 3" line in the fire service. Although I would not set-up a new engine with 3" supply, some older apparatus that is already equipped with it can function quite well using a split bed and dual lay at single family dwellings. Most SFD homes have a flow requirement of under 1,000 gpm, even with exposures. Considering the friction loss in 3" at Q squared, or 25 psi per 100 ft for a flow of 500 gpm, a pressure of 165 psi should be more than adequate to send 1,000 gpm down a 600 ft. lay of dual 3" lines to the attack engine.
    When on a "Big Box" or for large set-back homes, a 3" supplying a water thief or leaderline wye can be an ideal use of the 3" that you took out of main bed service. If we are connecting two 1 3/4" lines and a 2 1/2" line to a water thief, being fed by 200 ft. of 3" line, the correct engine pressure would be around 250 psi for a total flow of 700 gpm through the water thief. About 150 gpm on the two 1 3/4" with automatic nozzles and 400 gpm through a 2 1/2" auto on 200 or 300 ft of 2 1/2" line. With 7 FF's on the lines this is very possible, and if short handed, use a blitz fire on the 2 1/2" line. (Full utilization of a 1500 gpm engine rated at 750 gpm @ 250 psi)
    When training pump operators in relay techniques, simply exchange 800 ft. of 5" supply (don't lay the 5") but use a 50 ft. section of 3" in its place. At 1500 gpm through the 50 ft. of 3" you will generate 112 psi of friction loss, so all engine pressures and volumes will be correct, but you do not need to lay out the 800 ft. of 5" line. You will be able to get a flow of about 1700 gpm with an engine pressure of 150 psi. Do not attempt to run this volume into a pony suction but adapt the steamer from 6" down to 2 1/2". If you set your engines with the pump panels facing each other, it will be possible for both pump operators to observe the effects of throttling up or down on the other engine. Always route the relay hose around the side away from your pump operators position. When running large volumes of water through smaller hose, be aware of the possibility to tear poorly bonded linings out of the hose. Always check for shaking and/or leaks and find the cause. Have fun & be safe.
    If you still have "Mae West" style of hydrants, a 25 ft. section of 3" will have a friction loss of 12 psi at 700 gpm, so by connecting to the hydrant with dual 3" - 25 footers, simply bring your intake down to 10 psi and you will never cause problems in the water system, since the hydrant will always be at 15 psi or more.
    Last edited by KuhShise; 07-22-2011 at 12:30 PM. Reason: spelling & add paragraph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    My god- there's still a Dept in the US that uses 3" as a supply line?
    MORE than one. In fact, I believe Harve and most of PG county is still using it. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefengineer11 View Post
    As in lots of it.
    STILL can use HARD sleeve, Just NOT the new see thru lightweight stuff. As far as the z's they work GREAT. We have 2 on iur Reel truck along with a half a mile of 5". T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt1262 View Post
    Here is a picture of a Z valve. As CE11 mentioned only one company in our area has this valve. It is very efficient for use in line for long relays. Has similiar FL to a large flow hydrasist. Pumps the same as a hydrasist.

    It has an advantage over a hydrasist in that it can also be used at the drafting site. Our LDH Task Force has a procedure to place a second engine at the draft site ready to draft as a back-up in case of a problem with the draft engine - usually cleaning stainers. Since the Z valve has a gate on the side inlets the second engine can be ready and jump into service without a problem. You can pump the boosting inlet without connecting to the boosting engine supply side of the valve. This cannot be done with the hydrasist or the Humat. A jumbo gated WYE 5" x 2 - 5" Stortz will can the same thing for the drafting situation.

    Mike
    Note that the red arrow is the direction of water flow. Hook it up backwards, you WON'T be happy. T.c.

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