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    Default Extrication Question

    Hello All.

    I was asked by My nephew while taking our trip to the Barbershop if an Armored Car crashes how would we get the " Cop wookin peeple" out. And It started to make Me think a little. And the more I thought about it the more I wondered Myself. How the heck WOULD we get the cop wookin peeple out?

    My Youngest Brother was in the military for two tours of duty in Iraq. He was EOD and alot of times would show up to scenes where an IED attack occured and there were pts. still stuck inside Humvees or other armored apparatus. He was telling me of a device called a Rat Claw. apparently You hook it to the humvee door and the other end to another vehicle and Gun the throttle and rip the door off.

    This sounds like something that could be used in the Fire service for just such an occasion but to My knowledge there is nothing like this for the Fire Service.

    Have any of You ever worked an extrication involving an Armored Vehicle in the Municiple sector? If an Armored Car was involved in an MVC how would you get the cop wooken peeple out?
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    My Youngest Brother was in the military for two tours of duty in Iraq. He was EOD and alot of times would show up to scenes where an IED attack occured and there were pts. still stuck inside Humvees or other armored apparatus. He was telling me of a device called a Rat Claw. apparently You hook it to the humvee door and the other end to another vehicle and Gun the throttle and rip the door off.

    This sounds like something that could be used in the Fire service for just such an occasion but to My knowledge there is nothing like this for the Fire Service.
    In a war zone that's probably a great idea, but as far as a Fire Service application I don't think it's too practical.

    "Gun the throttle and rip the door off" doesn't do much for C-spine/back/any injuries.

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    Great post, I've actually never thought about extricating from an armored car.
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    One of our oldtimers was on an armored car wreck years ago (like, 15 years ago). I asked him about this today, he said they didn't have much luck with hydraulic tools, for the same reasons in the above mentioned Holmatro report, no surface to bite on/into), but that an air powered grinder, air chissel, and a plasma cutter eventually got them in. Evidentially both guys were DOA by the time they got in to them, which he said took well over an hour with numerious crews working.

    He also said that there were representitives from the armored car company on scene shortly after the wreck, and they stood guard around the truck until they were able to secure it after extrication.

    Just something to keep in mind.

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    The military does not take C spine and there are studies to show that they have less injuries they when we pull people out. Often time when the collar is put on it pushes the neck up causing verterbe (sp) to push together and crack if there is a fracture. I just took a class about this, was very intersting.

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    Check the extrication section of the forums, I believe there is a thread in there concerning Armored Car Extrication.... may have to click back a few pages
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    In MOST armored car crashes,whatever they HIT will be worse than the Armored car. Most armored car movements are timed and tracked,and VERY few lend themselves to forced entry with conventional tools. Sometimes the fastest way in is contact the company for a key. Obviously, if you're out in the sticks,this isn't an option. Don't think in today's age you are going to get a lot of info out of the Amored car company because you won't. Just look at it like a safe on big wheels. The door being a LITTLE easier to break into. T.C.

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    Take the money and run??? LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by admpaul View Post
    Take the money and run??? LOL
    TRUST ME,it will be MORE than a ten minute job. SURROUNDED by Many,Many GUNS. T.C.

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    Another thing to worry about is going to be the gaurds that have gotten knocked around a bit. All they know is that it could be a heist, MAKE SURE you announce your selfs and what is going on.
    Courage, Being Scared to Death and Saddling Up anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by admpaul View Post
    Take the money and run??? LOL
    Did Billy Joe catch up with her the very next day???

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    In a war zone that's probably a great idea, but as far as a Fire Service application I don't think it's too practical.

    "Gun the throttle and rip the door off" doesn't do much for C-spine/back/any injuries.
    There have been studies that have been done by the deparment of defense and by the Army Medical Center and School that shows that in the majority of IED blast that are able to disable the vehicle that there is a very small chance of C-spine injuries, and more commonly the crew will have L-spine and T-spine injuries if any from the explosion if it occured under the truck; However you are correct in about jerking the door off of a truck in a civillian setting being a terible idea. The rough estimate of an 1151 up-armored HMMVEE's weight is somewhere in the neighborhood of 12,000 pounds, and the latches on the doors are designed to fracture to facilitate extraction using commercial devices like the OP mentioned, or in our case a tow stap and a shackle. While deployed to Iraq in 200-2008 as a combat medic with 2BCT 3ID, I was more concerned with what type of life threatening hemmorage, or amputation the occupants may have suffered.

    Quote Originally Posted by admpaul View Post
    The military does not take C spine and there are studies to show that they have less injuries they when we pull people out. Often time when the collar is put on it pushes the neck up causing verterbe (sp) to push together and crack if there is a fracture. I just took a class about this, was very intersting.
    Where did you take this class? This is some information that s just now being taught to new medics and I was unaware that this research had made it out to the civillian sector yet. Its good to know that its out there, but its surprising how quickly information can move these days.

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    As it started to weigh on My mind a little bit more I decided that I would Contact Garda. I identified Myself as a Firefighter and asked to speak to somebody about this very question and what some of the procedures would be if something like this should ever happen. I was told that they would not give that information up. I told them I understood completely and asked if they would like to set up a training session with Our Fire Department sort of a face to face thing and My information was taken and told somebody would be in contact with me. So far nothing.

    I figure if you can get into the cab region and get the driver free. Then He would have access to the box. In any event I agree with former posts that state you should clearly ID yourself and call the Company to have a rep enroute. If all else fails just keep cutting and peeling untill something breaks loose.
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasmedic01 View Post
    Where did you take this class?
    Can't speak to the class, but I read a while back that the rest of the world takes an amused view of our fixation on spinal immobillization. Wish I could remember where....

    As I recall, they work toward clearing the C-spine, especially, on scene. I'm sure they err on the side of caution, but not to the extent we do here in the US, where even the hint of a possible spinal injury gets the full treatment.
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    There's a couple old threads with some info if you do a search:

    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...or+extrication (Afghanistan Duties)

    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...or+extrication (Armored Cars )

    While I never had to do it while in Iraq (I was working civil affairs rather than crash crew), what I heard discussed in our community was an emphasis on windows and hinges. K-12s and plasma torches were preferred.

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    Keep in mind that the guards will likely assume that any crash is a set-up and defend their cargo appropriately.

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    I took a heavy truck extrication class about a year ago. We some how had acuried an old amored truck to cut up.

    We found that the best way to get in was to cut the hinges with a partner saw and basicly force the door from the hinge side with a set of irons. This one had steel strap hinges on the outside of the door. Cutting through the exterior skin was doable but was slow going with a plasma cutter.

    The windows were basicly uncuttable with the tools we had on hand. We found the best way was to beat it out with a flat head axe. For the most part most of the "armor" slowed us down but did not defeat us. I think the truck was designed to look tougher then it looked.

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    Cool Auto X of Armored Car

    We have had some pretty challenging extrication jobs due to the Army up-armoring most of their vehicles. We bought an oxyacetylene torch/kit for these vehicles. A few relief cuts and with our high-pressure Amkus tools we're in; I'm sure that this would work in the case of an Armored Car.

    If this didn't work my next option would be to attack the hinges with our K12 Rotary Saw.

    A chainsaw to the window may work also, dunno haven't tried it.
    Last edited by mikeyboy; 02-27-2011 at 04:22 PM.
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    Being a former armored service employee, I can add in a little info. Not all armored cars are created equal. The vans are usually stock vans that have been turned into armored vehicles by a specialty company rather than built as armored vehicles from the ground up. So the armor is added behind the normal vehicle skin rather than integral. The windows are usually armored with sheets of lexan placed behind the windows. With the vans, the locking and latching mechanisms are usually within a box-like structure but again the skin and hinges are normal. The larger armored trucks have bodies that are built from the ground up to be armored vehicles. But they're meant to protect mainly from small-arms fire and forcible entry with hand tools. Both high powered rifles AND many devices available to the fire service will defeat these vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtngael View Post
    Both high powered rifles AND many devices available to the fire service will defeat these vehicles.
    So? Shoot your way in?

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    Whether or not your extrication tools are capable of making entry on a Armored Vehicle is the least of my concerns on this type of rescue.

    If the occupants are unconcious...begin extrication if law enforcement is on-scene. If the occupants are concious, chances are they will not let you enter and will protect entry with their lives. Typically, they will authorize entry only after another Armored Vehicle is present to transfer the load. These security guards are armed and required to protect millions of dollars in cash, it is not a good idea to make entry without authorization from the Armored Car company and/or a law enforcement officer present. The last thing you want is to have the Brinks report say "missing money after rescue"

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGITCH View Post
    So? Shoot your way in?
    I was just making the point that armored vehicles aren't THAT armored. Especially the windows. They'll stop handgun bullets and that's it.

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