1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfd1992 View Post
    This.

    Agreed that having the ladder footed, tied off, secured in some way is best.

    But...

    How many of us hang Christmas lights, clean gutters, paint, etc. with a ladder set on the driveway, and have someone footing it?
    If the ladder is placed onto concrete or asphalt I have someone butt it. If no one is available I will tie it off with a piece of webbing or wait until someone is available.

    Now if the ladder is placed on dirt, gravel, or grass, and I can get the butt spurs to dig in sufficiently, then no I do not have someone butt the ladder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    You can choose to work how ever you want but I see zero benefit, unless a life is at risk, for hurrying and not securing the ladder first.
    Well now you're saying something a little different aren't you. If we're speaking of VES, we are likely highly suspicious that life may be at risk. So in fact, your statement contradicts itself, as I know you see benefit in doing what ever it takes when life is at risk. Securing the ladder each time you move from window to window would also be counterproductive to the VES concept that searches need to be where the potential occupants are in the most danger working toward the least dangerous area, securing the ladder each time would be far slower.
    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Funny thing is my volly FD has a total of 22 people on it, a good response is 14, but it has been far less many times since most of us work out of town. My career FD on a still gets 13 people, on a working still we get 8 more. We manage to place ladders and if they are on concrete or asphalt we butt or secure them, grass or dirt most likely not.
    Even at 21 firefighters on scene using two per ladder must mean other tasks fall lower on the priority scale? We face similar staffing issues and never have enough soon enough.

    The only real "mistake" you made here Brother is using the word "NEVER" with regard to the fireground. You and I both know that fires are far too dynamic for "never" and "always".

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFuss View Post
    Wait, there are houses out there with grass in front of them? You guys are pullin my leg...
    Sure, you can spot them driving down the street when you see a pair of sneakers hanging over the power lines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    None of the FDs I have EVER been on send people to do ladder raises by themselves, especially for a rescue or VES. I am sorry that your FD is critically short handed and this is not a what if, but reality, situation for you.
    Really? When you are the OVM on my truck you are expected to be able to take, throw, use, rescue, etc on a ground ladder all by your lonesome. Sure, if you are seen coming down with a hefty hauler nobody on our dept is stupid enough not to run over and foot it, but the fact remains. Honestly, that surprises me a lil.
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    To answer the original question.... The rule of thumb is to always butt a ladder (...and the caviate to that statement is ) especially when the surface on which the ladder is grounded is extremely solid (concrete, hard compacted gravel, ect) or extremely slick such as compacted wet grass or mud.

    The back half of the statement implies some lee-way in butting on a tractionable surface. I'm sorry to say, but good judgement, situational awareness, and department policies will answer your question. Tying a ladder off, butting with a tool, or burying a ladder in the ground may be options in a pinch...just not options for the norm.

    I guess one question comes to my mind... If you are VESing, I hope you have the manpower there to commit to the operation...That is not a threat or accusation, rather, FF safety first, because falling from 10' or 20' is not a good thing.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Well now you're saying something a little different aren't you. If we're speaking of VES, we are likely highly suspicious that life may be at risk. So in fact, your statement contradicts itself, as I know you see benefit in doing what ever it takes when life is at risk. Securing the ladder each time you move from window to window would also be counterproductive to the VES concept that searches need to be where the potential occupants are in the most danger working toward the least dangerous area, securing the ladder each time would be far slower.
    Even at 21 firefighters on scene using two per ladder must mean other tasks fall lower on the priority scale? We face similar staffing issues and never have enough soon enough.

    Look, VES is an option with my career FD. It is a 2 man operation. Both may not enter, but a 2 person crew is sent to do VES. It is FAR faster, and safer, using 2 than just one person. The ladder gets moved faster from widow to window. There is a butt man if needed, or someone to hand a victim out the window to, or to help get larger victims out the window in the first place. You may not do it that way, I am not telling you you are wrong, I am merely saying the way WE do it. I wonder why that creates such a problem for you?

    If 21 FFs is not enough to handle needed fireground ops we go to this magical device called a radio and call for a MABAS box alarm, and if we need more than that we call subsequent MABAS box alarms. We have excellent response from our neighbors in personnel, equipment, and response time.



    The only real "mistake" you made here Brother is using the word "NEVER" with regard to the fireground. You and I both know that fires are far too dynamic for "never" and "always".

    You are correct, I shouldn't have said never. As soon as you say never fate reaches out and kicks you right square in the nads and proves you oh so wrong.

    I strongly believe in securing the ladder on a hard surface. I do myself or the victim no good if the ladder falls and consequently so do we. The fact is the majority of us here can and have climbed a ladder placed in a manner it shouldn't have been. We are trained, we control our emotions (for the most part, and some do better than others), and we ascend and descend smoothly and don't rock or bounce the ladder. Now put a scarede crapless victim on the ladder and tell me that will remain the same.
    I think the truth is we are far closer to agreeing than not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Okay, to all of you that have gotten so worked up over what I said. You have issues with department policy of both my volly and career FDs, groovy. I'll be sure to tell them all the guys at FH.com said they were wrong.

    I never said I can't raise a ladder by myself and in fact I have raised, on more than a few occasions, all the way up to a 28 foot ladder by myself. I teach the 24 foot single FF raise both at the tech college and to my fellow volunteers.

    Of course there will always be situations where you may need to raise a ladder by yourself. An example would be someone pops up at a window and you are alone for whatever reason. My point is IF AT ALL POSSIBLE the ladder should be butted or secured, especially if you are making a rescue. It does absolutely no good at all to get someone out of a window escaping a firey death only to have the ladder kick out and have them die through face planting into the concrete.

    You want to challenge my manhood or courage or comfort level over working on ladders? Good for you. I worked construction for many years and routinely worked off from ground ladders up to 40 foot long. You can choose to work how ever you want but I see zero benefit, unless a life is at risk, for hurrying and not securing the ladder first.

    Funny thing is my volly FD has a total of 22 people on it, a good response is 14, but it has been far less many times since most of us work out of town. My career FD on a still gets 13 people, on a working still we get 8 more. We manage to place ladders and if they are on concrete or asphalt we butt or secure them, grass or dirt most likely not. So no we are not blessed with an over abundance of personnel. Maybe I could come and train you guys on more efficient fire ground ops?

    Operate how ever you wish. I never said YOU have to do a damn thing that we do. Nor did I challenge your comfort level working on ladders. I stated how we do it and my personal opinion on whether or not to butt or secure a ladder.
    Relax. No one said you guys do it wrong. I just stated that you were incorrect in saying that no one does it unless they are short staffed or it's absolutely needed. MANY departments throw them with a single man. Like I said, we have 5-man trucks over here and still do that. It's how we, and many other large east coast cities, operate.

    No, I don't need you to come teach all 2000 of us how to operate on a fire ground when we do it daily. Not sure why you have to call us out though when there's different ways to do things. You can do what works for you and we will do what works for us. We have been doing it this way for years with 180,000 runs/year without a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truckedup133 View Post
    Really? When you are the OVM on my truck you are expected to be able to take, throw, use, rescue, etc on a ground ladder all by your lonesome. Sure, if you are seen coming down with a hefty hauler nobody on our dept is stupid enough not to run over and foot it, but the fact remains. Honestly, that surprises me a lil.
    Look, I am not critcizing the way you do things. Frankly, it is inconsequential to me here in Wisconsin how you throw ladders. I am sure what you do is established policy for your FD. What we do is established policy for us with enough leeway to allow for those "emergency situations within the already occuring emergency."

    Why are you surprised that someone might do something differently than you do? Read almost every post here and you will find that happening.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipeman1822 View Post
    Relax. No one said you guys do it wrong. I just stated that you were incorrect in saying that no one does it unless they are short staffed or it's absolutely needed. MANY departments throw them with a single man. Like I said, we have 5-man trucks over here and still do that. It's how we, and many other large east coast cities, operate.

    I NEVER said no one does it unless they are short staffed. If you can find where I said anything about anyone's staffing except for my 2 FDs I will either apologize for saying it or explain what I meant.

    No, I don't need you to come teach all 2000 of us how to operate on a fire ground when we do it daily. Not sure why you have to call us out though when there's different ways to do things. You can do what works for you and we will do what works for us. We have been doing it this way for years with 180,000 runs/year without a problem.

    And just like the Brother from Indiannapolis that is surprised by what we do, and you being from the east coast, need to understand that there are thousands of fire departments in this country and they most certainly ALL have their own ways of doing things. I don't believe I said anyone needed to change. I explained what WE do and was called on my comfort level of working on ladders, whether I was even capable of doing a one person raise, and manpower not doing other fire ground tasks. So who called out who? Believe me I don't see us changing our operations anytime soon.
    I still believe that butting, or securing the ladder, if you are on concrete, asphalt, or even frozen ground may save not only your ***, but the *** of the victim. You and others can disagree and do as you please. That doesn't change the validity of my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipeman1822 View Post
    I agree. We have 5-man trucks here. Two trucks on every box alarm and an additional truck on the working fire dispatch. We still throw ladders alone. That is expected right out of rookie school. It's just faster. Each truck throws 3-5 ladders for every fire. Most are just there in case needed for egress, but having 2-3 people throw each ladder for 5 ladders would waste time and personnel.
    I'm with ChiefKN, RFD and pipeman this one. We trained and trained on single member ladder throws, and it's expected for the truck crew throwing ladders to be able to handle everything up to at least a 24' or 28' double section ladder by oneself. When you get up to 28's and 35's that are three section, well, some may need assistance. This is where the two member carry method, where both members stand in the middle and carry a ladder in each hand together comes in (we tried it here after seeing D.C. do it). If I'm the O.V. and need to vent horizontally, I can ascend the ladder and operate solo, or use the ladder itself to take the window. Some are more comfortable than others while working on them, simple as that.

    As far as VES goes; as an outside team of a Ladder Company, our O.V. and Driver work as a team but independent of each other since they're outside the IDLH. If a VES is initiated by the outside crew, we recommend one member footing (for accountability purposes too) while the other enters and exits. If a vic is recovered, the member inside may need a hand getting the victim to the ladder so the footer can help. Some departments VES on everything, others just use it as a tool and use when applicable; we fall under the latter (no pun intended) of the two.
    Last edited by RFDGloWorm; 03-01-2011 at 06:22 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post

    Why are you surprised that someone might do something differently than you do? Read almost every post here and you will find that happening.

    ....Touche'.
    "It's a living thing brian..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDGloWorm View Post
    I'm with ChiefKN, RFD and pipeman this one. We trained and trained on single member ladder throws, and it's expected for the truck crew throwing ladders to be able to handle everything up to at least a 24' or 28' double section ladder by oneself. When you get up to 28's and 35's that are three section, well, some may need assistance. This is where the two member carry method, where both members stand in the middle and carry a ladder in each hand together comes in (we tried it here after seeing D.C. do it). If I'm the O.V. and need to vent horizontally, I can ascend the ladder and operate solo, or use the ladder itself to take the window. Some are more comfortable than others while working on them, simple as that.

    Look, let me repeat this one last time...

    Just because as a normal operation we don't do single ladder raises doesn't mean we can't do it if needed, and that we haven't trained on it.

    The 2 ladder carry is normal ops for us on my career FD, usually it is the 24 foot extension and a 16 foot roof ladder, although it can be the 35 foot extension and the 20 foot roof ladder, or any combnation there of.

    As far as VES goes; as an outside team of a Ladder Company, our O.V. and Driver work as a team but independent of each other since they're outside the IDLH. If a VES is initiated by the outside crew, we recommend one member footing (for accountability purposes too) while the other enters and exits. If a vic is recovered, the member inside may need a hand getting the victim to the ladder so the footer can help. Some departments VES on everything, others just use it as a tool and use when applicable; we fall under the latter (no pun intended) of the two.

    Wow! A 2 person VES team. I wish we would have thought of that.

    We VES when it is an appropriate tactic.

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    Thanks for the responses. I got my answer 100 posts back and I didn't even think of using the hooks

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    If you're still interested in the topic, urban firefighter magazine's new issue has an article called location location location which is all about where to put your ladders and why.

    its free and includes a great deal of knowledge

    urbanfirefighter.com
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    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fact is, given that the majority of our ventilation is PPV, there are little opportunities to throw ladders at incidents due to building construction. We still do truck work - It simply rarely involves ladders.


    Flattered that you decided to use a quote of mine.

    Really, I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fact is, given that the majority of our ventilation is PPV, there are little opportunities to throw ladders at incidents due to building construction. We still do truck work - It simply rarely involves ladders.


    Flattered that you decided to use a quote of mine.

    Really, I am.
    If only you knew that he used it because it is possibly the most idiotic thing you have ever said. Minus the whole kid in the car thing.
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    I don't mind fire rolling over my head. I just don't like it rolling UNDER my a**.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFuss View Post
    Those are the houses that SELL grass. I have to walk a few blocks and get to a park to see some ground cover. It's still mostly dirt.
    I pity you city guys. I sit in my kitchen and can see deer, hawks, cardinals, wood peckers, morning doves, the occasional bald eagle and every once in a while opposums and racoons. My pond out back has got fish, frogs, turtles, and a musk rat. I have had wood ducks nesting here. Sand hill cranes, Canadian geese and ducks fly over in warmer weather to the river across the street.

    My little part of paradise is just over 14 acres in a small rural community of around 700. I have a mixture of farm field, small woods, and the pond. I smile every time one of the guys I work with talk about moving up "Nort ay?" Sure I have a heck of a commute now, around 100 miles, but the money I spend on my house is for my retirement, not something to sell and move to a different house when I retire.

    Honestly, I don't know how you guys do it. The noise, the neighbors so close you can hear then fart in their living room, no grass, no nature...I would go out of my mind.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-02-2011 at 02:33 AM. Reason: Clarity, thanks Chief!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    the neighbors so lose you can hear then fart in their living room
    You either forgot a "c" or an "o".... either way, I'm with ya.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    You either forgot a "c" or an "o".... either way, I'm with ya.
    OH MY GOD!! Um, add a C. I hope to never live so close to someone with a hind end so loose i can here it functioning!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Fact is, given that the majority of our ventilation is PPV, there are little opportunities to throw ladders at incidents due to building construction. We still do truck work - It simply rarely involves ladders.


    Flattered that you decided to use a quote of mine.

    Really, I am.
    I sure hope so. It's not even sad, but funny to me now. I feel you are probably a good guy but on a different planet in terms of out look and that's fine. Maybe you mean the best in terms of getting all your men home in the morning but your personal limits you impose or are compelled to impose are different than mine and that's ok. Regardless, and wether I like it or not, you're a brother and I feel no need to argue further with you.

    But having said that, truck work without ladders is just silly.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    If the ladder is at the correct angle it SHOULD not slip out on concrete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by admpaul View Post
    If the ladder is at the correct angle it SHOULD not slip out on concrete.
    Really? Put a firefighter on that ladder, carry tools, OR rescuing a scared out of their mind victim and let's see how smoothly the climbing goes and how much the ladder bounces.

    Sorry, if the personnel are available, or there is something to tie off to, securing the ladder is the right choice. Falling 10 feet or more to the concrete will do you or your victim not one bit of good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by admpaul View Post
    If the ladder is at the correct angle it SHOULD not slip out on concrete.
    While this seems "obvious", when putting a wall/roof ladder to the sill for VES, there's a good chance the angle will be more shallow than the "correct" climbing angle. In most cases the correct angle sticker on ladders are too steep for comfort when wearing SCBA and carrying tools. But knowing the anticipated obstacles and properly selecting the ladder will certainly be a plus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by admpaul View Post
    If the ladder is at the correct angle it SHOULD not slip out on concrete.
    Anything that should never happen will always happen.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    I was just addressing the orginal question about ladders slipping on concrete. I do teach my students that ladders MUST be healed or tied off.

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