1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    So what exactly did pierce do? Give us a bench seat up front and have the engine tunnel split the rear? Or did they go Hush style and have a completely open cab? Neither of these things are new.

    Maybe I'm a bit slow, but what exactly does CF mean? I've always heard mack CF but never knew what those two letters meant.
    CF: Cab Forward. or charlie foxtrot...
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    thanks, thats what I figured. Although I think denoting that is stupid, if this new thing is a cab forward, what the heck is every other cab style?

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    Nothing new here. Move the engine back and set it lower in the frame rails.

    Trucks have been made like that going back to the 1940's.

    They had to do something as the new emissions and cooling requirements were making driver & officer space non existent and the doghouse hight was up to the drivers elbows.

    Trade off space in front for space in the back.
    One more thing: Whats the approach angle on the front end of that beast?
    While it might work well in flat paved cities , it would need it's own wrecker to tow it out of our hilly roads. That big front end would end up bottomed out everywhere.
    Last edited by islandfire03; 03-26-2011 at 12:26 PM.

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    Default Speaking of cooling

    I was wondering just that. How are they going to cool it? I don"t see any side air intakes. Is that grill functional or just ornamental? Then to hear and see a no grill unit even amplifies my question how are they going to cool it? I am sure there will be glitches (aka: puc pump problems).

    I must agree the letters CF have no patent on them but come on they have this huge marketing machine I am sure they could have done without it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrtrks View Post
    I was wondering just that. How are they going to cool it? I don"t see any side air intakes. Is that grill functional or just ornamental? Then to hear and see a no grill unit even amplifies my question how are they going to cool it? I am sure there will be glitches (aka: puc pump problems).
    The radiator is located above the pump, and uses the same forced-air cooling system that's used on earth-moving equipment and city buses. The grill is ornamental only.

    I'll try to post some pics after lunch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyrtrks View Post
    I was wondering just that. How are they going to cool it? I don"t see any side air intakes. Is that grill functional or just ornamental? Then to hear and see a no grill unit even amplifies my question how are they going to cool it? I am sure there will be glitches (aka: puc pump problems).

    I must agree the letters CF have no patent on them but come on they have this huge marketing machine I am sure they could have done without it.
    I am hearing rumors from some Mack purists that seem to think Mack has "CF" trademarked. Rumors only at this time.
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    Here's a picture of the radiator, which is under the metal grating. Photo taken standing in the hosebed looking forward.

    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 03-26-2011 at 10:28 PM.
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    Cooling ductwork from the radiator down to the engine.




    Showing the duct work going into the engine. Also, you'll see that all of the filters have been remote located to the driver's side frame rail (like an ARFF rig), the dipsticks are also located at the same located, and the alternator is top mounted for easy service. The batteries are mounted between the frame rails all the way at the front.

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    Photos of the cab....





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    The medium block engine tunnel (the big block will be 8" taller).



    View from the driver's side rear-facing jumpseat.

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    I have a few more pictures and a lot of details about the new chassis design and layout if anyone is interested.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 03-26-2011 at 10:36 PM. Reason: Grammar
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    Ok, what are the Las Vegas odds that next year at FDIC or one of the bigger shows, that Spatan, HME or one of the of the other larger apparatus builders comes out with their version of "cab forward" set-up? The process of manufactures copying each other amazes me. The cycle will just keep repeating it's self.

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    The cab has some nice fit and finish and definitely a nice amount of room for the chauffeur and officer....BUT there is no room in the rear of the cab. This design is killing so much valuable real-estate. This is taking three step backwards. From what I was told by my friend who sells Pierce is that this was designed as a SPEC item to keep others away from the bid.

    Great job Pierce on the booth was very nice but I am disappointed with this product. Really not much room at all when you really get down to thinking about how much space the dog house kills in the rear of the cab. Maybe they will work to lower the dog out so the rear is usable and then this cab would truly be something revolutionary, maybe thats the long term plan until then I will keep with more room for the crew in the rear.
    cp

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    Ladderman, I don't believe that this cab was meant to be revolutionary, it was meant to address the biggest complaint that they've gotten from the customer, which is a lack of room for the driver and officer. Easiest way was to shift the engine tunnel to the rear.

    There's no doubt that fitting four people in the rear is going to be very tight without the extended cab option, but for a career department that regularly rides with only three or four total personnel, I don't see that the space is all that tight. When I sat in the rear seats, I found the room to be very reasonable (and I'm not a small guy), the only time it was tight is when someone sat directly across from me.

    I'm curious, what would you be doing with the space in the middle of the rear of the cab if the tunnel wasn't there? If this was coming to my place of business, we could still mount our EMS cabinet on the rear wall, and now we've got a great mounting surface for the TIC, radio chargers, irons, etc. I don't see the great loss in the rear.

    On a side note, when I asked the factory rep how they were going to address customers concerned with the tunnel in the rear, he pointed out that they had five other chassis to choose from, all without a rear tunnel.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 03-27-2011 at 01:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by taskforce16 View Post
    Ok, what are the Las Vegas odds that next year at FDIC or one of the bigger shows, that Spatan, HME or one of the of the other larger apparatus builders comes out with their version of "cab forward" set-up? The process of manufactures copying each other amazes me. The cycle will just keep repeating it's self.
    They already have- thirty years ago.

    I want to know what the Las Vegas odds are that Piece will claim this as a "new, revolutionary concept that they invented."
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    They already have- thirty years ago.

    I want to know what the Las Vegas odds are that Piece will claim this as a "new, revolutionary concept that they invented."
    Thirty years ago? Who was putting the engine between the frame rails 30 years ago? The engine used to be above the frame rails when it was used in this position. In fact, it was so high and tight that the jump seat riders could rarely even see each other and only had about 18 to 20 inches of width. Further, the radiator was in the middle of the cab and the cabs didn't tilt.

    I can't remember anyone who was doing this thirty years ago. Can you name an on-road chassis builder who was putting the engine between the frame rails back then?

    If Seagrave had introduced it you would be bowing in the direction of Clintonville on your Aerialscope prayer rug and touting its praises to anyone who still takes you seriously. Since it was Pierce's idea its, "Tut, tut, move along. Nothing to see here."

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    Quote Originally Posted by firepundit View Post
    Thirty years ago? Who was putting the engine between the frame rails 30 years ago? The engine used to be above the frame rails when it was used in this position. In fact, it was so high and tight that the jump seat riders could rarely even see each other and only had about 18 to 20 inches of width. Further, the radiator was in the middle of the cab and the cabs didn't tilt.

    I can't remember anyone who was doing this thirty years ago. Can you name an on-road chassis builder who was putting the engine between the frame rails back then?

    If Seagrave had introduced it you would be bowing in the direction of Clintonville on your Aerialscope prayer rug and touting its praises to anyone who still takes you seriously. Since it was Pierce's idea its, "Tut, tut, move along. Nothing to see here."
    Ahhhhhh another disciple who thinks that Pierce is the second coming of christ has come out of the woodwork.......

    I said nothing about "engine between the frame rails." Although I cannot speak for taskforce16, but I believe he, and I were both referring to the "cab-forward" idea.

    Go drink some more of the kool-aid. Your dehydration has affected your mental state- most specifically your "reading for comprehension" ability. Oh, and for the record, it might be hard for you to swallow, but Pierce did not invent pumps-under-cabs, aluminum ladders, rear-steering rearmounts, or the cab-forward design, or anything else they claim to have invented that has already existed in the fire service in the last 100 years. Including fire!

    (oh and BTW Seagrave is not my favorite...... )
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 03-27-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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    You guys kill me LOL!!!!!

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    The E-One Hurricane chassis from 30 years ago had a cab forward design ???

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Ahhhhhh another disciple who thinks that Pierce is the second coming of christ has come out of the woodwork.......

    I said nothing about "engine between the frame rails." Although I cannot speak for taskforce16, but I believe he, and I were both referring to the "cab-forward" idea.

    Go drink some more of the kool-aid. Your dehydration has affected your mental state- most specifically your "reading for comprehension" ability. Oh, and for the record, it might be hard for you to swallow, but Pierce did not invent pumps-under-cabs, aluminum ladders, rear-steering rearmounts, or the cab-forward design, or anything else they claim to have invented that has already existed in the fire service in the last 100 years. Including fire!

    (oh and BTW Seagrave is not my favorite...... )
    We know, Toyne is the favorite. You may have mentioned it once or twice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Pierce did not invent pumps-under-cabs, aluminum ladders, rear-steering rearmounts, or the cab-forward design, or anything else they claim to have invented that has already existed in the fire service in the last 100 years.
    Can you provide a link to anything that shows that Pierce claims to have "invented" any of these things?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Can you provide a link to anything that shows that Pierce claims to have "invented" any of these things?
    I only wish they would have named it "FWD"

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    They already have- thirty years ago.

    I want to know what the Las Vegas odds are that Piece will claim this as a "new, revolutionary concept that they invented."
    Congratulations, your Pierce bashing has officially surpassed the annoyance level of any of the Pierce Kool-Aid drinkers around here. I guess the day of both sides giving it a rest will never come, even though I've been praying it would for years. Try acting your age for a change, not your shoe size.

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    One possible solution to the legroom issue. Since this is a tilt cab, why not locate jumpseat 3 and four back to back on top of the doghouse? We did this on our Spartan/RD Murray quint, and it adds a LOT room to what could have been a really tight fit. They aren't on a doghouse, but the concept is the same.

    Obviously, this may be a bit awkward with the big block doghouse and a flat roof cab.

    Shows promise, anyway. I'm interested to see what ideas fire depts come up with for using this cab!

    Wasn't the old Arrow a cab forward design? I know our old late 70's early 80's Pemfab cabs were. Not tilt cab, tho. I do know that doghouse felt mighty good riding in that canopy cab on a chilly, blustery day!

    Come to think of it, our 80' Seagrave ladder had a flat floor in the front as well. Crew cab sucked- that doghouse was so big your one shoulder was wedged against the window, and the other against the doghouse. (which was right below head level) Packing up was NO fun. No wonder the original owner opted to put all the other SCBA in compartments...

    I agree, the manufacturer bashing got old a long time ago... ( as did the Kool-aid drinker accusations)

    I'm from a municipal dept that has to use the bid process. I cannot remember when we last had two rigs from the same manufacturer in the firehouse at the same time... It comes down to whether or not the committee did it's homework and chose wisely. If yes, the truck served us well. If not... Then not so much. I can't remember the last true "lemon" we got that WE specced out ourselves-THAT WAS THE FAULT OF THE BUILDER. We've had good luck with pretty much everyone we've used lately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffer6 View Post
    Congratulations, your Pierce bashing has officially surpassed the annoyance level of any of the Pierce Kool-Aid drinkers around here. I guess the day of both sides giving it a rest will never come, even though I've been praying it would for years. Try acting your age for a change, not your shoe size.
    Couldn't agree more!

    I am not true fan of any particular brand, but from the pics of the new Dash CF....I like it ! Too bad it took this long to give some room back to the 2 sitting in the front...The last time I saw one with that much space in the front was from a 1974 Thibault 4 door(TCM) cab we had.

    I hope the other manufacturers do a similar cab.

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