1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    232

    Default Engage the pump issue

    We have a new used engine that has a pump issue, I think.
    When the pump lever is engaged in the cab, the "ready to pump" light sometimes comes on in just a couple seconds, sometimes it takes 5 minutes. It seems like a standard pump shift mechanism, see image.
    Any leads for the non-mechanic guy to figure out what the issue is?
    Last edited by hinesfire; 03-02-2011 at 10:54 AM. Reason: removed inaccurate photo

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    Ok, so what does the pump actually do? Not the light. The pump.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    232

    Default

    At the pump panel the pump delays engagement.

  4. #4
    Forum Member
    nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    Ok, here's the thing. You're describing a problem with the pump shift LIGHT not coming on right away. Who cares what the light is doing. Is the problem you're trying to describe actually the pump not shifting right away? The light should come on when the transfer case shifts. It sounds like the light is working fine and its the shift that isn't working properly.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    232

    Default

    Yes although the light is what we were focused on it is in inconsistant on when in fact the delay in the pump to engage that is the issue. Seems very odd that sometimes it goes right in, other times we wait. Its that mechanical action we are asking about.

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    HuntPA's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Northwest PA
    Posts
    510

    Default

    Trying not to be simplistic, but here are our pump shift procedures for a shift like yours:

    1. Shift transmission to "Neutral"
    2. Shift pump lever to the center position
    3. Wait for sound of air shift as it disengages the transfer case
    4. Shift pump to "Pump"
    5. Wait for sound of air shift as transfer case engaes
    6. Shift transmission into "D"

    We had a similar issue and found that people were either rushing the shift in the transfer case, or they were not disengaging the transmission. Not putting the transmission in "N" before shifting from road to pump will normally cause a very unpleasant (and expensive) grinding. Sometimes, however, if the transmission was in neutral and the transfer case was in neutral, the operator would place the transmission in drive and then shift the pump. That would cause a delay.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    nmfire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Maryland (DC Suburb)
    Posts
    5,738

    Default

    The neutral position for the transfer case has always been one of those he-said-she-said things. 50% of the people tell you "OMG never stop the pump shift in neutral, it will screw it all up". Just throw it right to pump or road. Then the other 50% will say "OMG you have to stop the pump shift in neutral or it will screw it all up."

    I was always taught not to stop the pump shift in neutral and it always engages flawlessly.

    To original poster, when you throw the lever, do you hear the air?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,703

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hinesfire View Post
    Any leads for the non-mechanic guy to figure out what the issue is?
    Don't be offended by my answer....but based on the line above...have it checked out by someone who is mechanically inclined for the apparatus. Last thing you want to do is possibly cause more damage.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  9. #9
    MembersZone Subscriber
    CKirk922's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Watching From The Sideline Now
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HuntPA View Post
    Trying not to be simplistic, but here are our pump shift procedures for a shift like yours:

    1. Shift transmission to "Neutral"
    2. Shift pump lever to the center position
    3. Wait for sound of air shift as it disengages the transfer case
    4. Shift pump to "Pump"
    5. Wait for sound of air shift as transfer case engaes
    6. Shift transmission into "D"

    We had a similar issue and found that people were either rushing the shift in the transfer case, or they were not disengaging the transmission. Not putting the transmission in "N" before shifting from road to pump will normally cause a very unpleasant (and expensive) grinding. Sometimes, however, if the transmission was in neutral and the transfer case was in neutral, the operator would place the transmission in drive and then shift the pump. That would cause a delay.
    DIDDo for us. We had some speedie petes who would get all flustered and not wait for the shift.

    When it does not work right off the bat, we go back to ground zero, take a breath and slowly pop through the steps.
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  10. #10
    Forum Member
    islandfire03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,662

    Talking

    Have someone get on a creeper and observe the shaft and linkage moving when you operate the road/pump lever.
    What we found on our hale pump is that road crap would get on the exposed end of the shift shaft and slow it's movement down or keep it from moving far enough to engage fully.
    Or it could be an air supply issue to the shift valve.

  11. #11
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pa Wilds
    Posts
    599

    Default

    The engine must be completely stopped with the transmission in neutral, before shifting into pump gear. Any power rotation of either the drive shaft or counter shaft will cause problems with transfer case engagement. The manual for Hale Muscle pumps specifically states go directly from road to pump position with the shift. I am, however inclined to agree with HuntPA's suggestion to pause at the neutral position on the pump shift lever, as I have experienced some difficulties when slapping the lever right down to the pump position. Hale does mention that you should use the operating manual supplied with the engine because some apparatus builders use valves other than that supplied by Hale. Sometimes it is helpful to bump an automatic into drive for a second, and then back to neutral, just to get the counter shaft moving slowly right before shifting into pump gear. This has the effect of preventing the slide collar splines from getting buck toothed aganst the splines for the pump drive.

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    "Ready to Pump" light....

    Obviously you know how to put it into pump gear/mode. Stop the rig, count to 2, put in neutral, count to 2, apply parking brake, count to 2, swing lever to "engage pump", count to 2, put transmission in drive. Pump is now engaged, and light is on.

    With the pic you have, I have never seen a single light pump engagement setup. With the setup that you have with the Hale system, I would look at the switch on top of the transfer valve that activates the "ready to pump" light. More than likely, the switch its self is sticking, and giving you a no-go light.

    To test this, put it into pump gear/mode, and look at your master discharge gauge. If the light is off, and your seeing pressure on the discharge gauge, then I would look into the switch.

    You also need to check your throttle up capabilities. If the light is off, you have discharge pressure, do you also have throttle up control. This is dependent if you have a vernier hand throttle control, and not cable operated.

    Going along with Kuh, sometimes it helps putting it in reverse to stop the motion of the shafts. But I seriously doubt that this will help your issue.

    FM1

    EDIT: I see no reason to stop in the neutral position in the movement from road to pump. This is for both waterous and hale pumps.
    Last edited by FIREMECH1; 03-02-2011 at 04:47 AM.
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  13. #13
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    232

    Default

    Here is the revised, picture of our lever. The original one was the only thing I could find without my camera.
    I sat in the engine last night and engaged & disengaged the pump several times. I believe I could hear the pump (pto?) engage, each time, well before the indicator lights come on.
    I appreciate all the suggestions and better yet, help understanding of the mechanics that are going on when you engage the pump. We will continue to explore.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #14
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    1,156

    Default

    With a Hale you should be able to tell if the pump has engaged when you put it in gear. You should be able to hear the whine of the gear box. If your not hearing it there is a shifter issue on the PTO. As said above either low air or the shifter its self is hanging up. If you have limited knowledge on these it might be cheaper in the long run to have a shop look at it.

  15. #15
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    So of Can. / N. of Mexico
    Posts
    869

    Default Pump Shift

    With the Hale pump, the pump shift is done by an air cylinder and a manual three position air shift valve.
    Set parking brake
    Shift transmission to neutral.
    With the manual air valve, shift to center position. Hesitate for a second or two. This allows the air on the road position side of the air cylinder to vent to atmosphere.
    Then shift the manual valve to the pump position. This puts air pressure on the pump side of the air cylinder and shifts the gear box shaft to pump mode.
    Hesitate for a second or two and then shift the trans to drive. If the pump has shifted correctly you should see the speedometer go to around 15 mph at idle.

    To disengage, Shift trans to neutral and ALWAYS wait for the speedo to go to zero before attempting to shift the pump back to road mode. This is where you'll get the horrendous gear grinding noises if you don't wait. Then hesitate in the center neutral position for the air to vent off the pump side of the air cylinder and then shift to road mode.

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    With the manual air valve, shift to center position. Hesitate for a second or two. This allows the air on the road position side of the air cylinder to vent to atmosphere.
    Then shift the manual valve to the pump position. This puts air pressure on the pump side of the air cylinder and shifts the gear box shaft to pump mode.
    If you have a Hale pump manual, it says to go directly from road to pump, not stopping in the center/neutral position.

    Waterous is also the same. Why people say or do this, I don't know. But it does not need to stop in the center/neutral position while making the road to pump transfer.

    FM1

    EDIT: Looking at the pic, #2 probably says "Shift to pump".
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  17. #17
    Forum Member
    Trkco1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    270

    Default

    Going along with Kuh, sometimes it helps putting it in reverse to stop the motion of the shafts. But I seriously doubt that this will help your issue.
    Isn't putting the shift lever in the neutral position do the same thing? This is a serious question, I'm just trying to learn, I haven't operated a pump in years.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB-KTF

  18. #18
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Bryn Athyn, Pa.
    Posts
    1,625

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trkco1 View Post
    Isn't putting the shift lever in the neutral position do the same thing? This is a serious question, I'm just trying to learn, I haven't operated a pump in years.
    No, that just allows the tailshaft to spin free. Touching reverse causes the transmission tailshaft to stop and actually begin to move in the opposite direction, and along with it, the input shaft to the transfer case. This, in turn, relieves the buck (or butt) tooth condition and allows the shift into pump mode to be completed.

    The condition is not uncommon to new Waterous pumps and usually clears itself in a year or so. Like anything else on pumps, the more you use them the better they will work. I don't know if it happens with Hale or Darley pumps.

    The neutral position is frequently used in conjunction with the shift manual override.

  19. #19
    Forum Member
    Trkco1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    270

    Default

    Thanks for the info.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RFB-KTF

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pa Wilds
    Posts
    599

    Default

    donethat: while most engines still operate the speedometer when in pump gear, there are a significant number of newer, computer controlled speedometers that do not show any speed when pumping. This is a shame, as being able to check the relative speed on the speedometer can be a valuable tool to make certain that the pump is in gear and in the correct pumping gear. For others, you should make a mental note of the reading when in pump gear and at idle, then check this before exiting the cab every time you place the pump in gear. If you still have a manual transmission, and accidentally place the transmission in the wrong gear (Ex. Mack in 3rd instead of 5th) you will have a much lower speedometer reading than normal. (3 mph vs 15 mph)

  21. #21
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trkco1 View Post
    Isn't putting the shift lever in the neutral position do the same thing? This is a serious question, I'm just trying to learn, I haven't operated a pump in years.
    Putting the shift lever in the neutral position just locks it into the "last" position it was in, at the transfer case. If you go from road to neutral, the transfer case is locked into road. It kills, or locks out the air system. Conversely, if you go from road to pump, then to neutral, the transfer case is locked into pump gear.

    Putting it in reverse has no bearing when you put the pump shift selector in neutral. Sometimes you do need to put the trans in reverse to be able to align the shift collars on the transfer case, to get it in pump gear.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  22. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    So of Can. / N. of Mexico
    Posts
    869

    Default Pump Shift

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    If you have a Hale pump manual, it says to go directly from road to pump, not stopping in the center/neutral position.

    Waterous is also the same. Why people say or do this, I don't know. But it does not need to stop in the center/neutral position while making the road to pump transfer.

    FM1
    FM1,
    I understand what the manuals say. And I have been shifting them with the hesitation for over 30 years because it works, everytime.To each their own.

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    So of Can. / N. of Mexico
    Posts
    869

    Default Speedometer Reading

    Quote Originally Posted by KuhShise View Post
    donethat: while most engines still operate the speedometer when in pump gear, there are a significant number of newer, computer controlled speedometers that do not show any speed when pumping. This is a shame, as being able to check the relative speed on the speedometer can be a valuable tool to make certain that the pump is in gear and in the correct pumping gear. For others, you should make a mental note of the reading when in pump gear and at idle, then check this before exiting the cab every time you place the pump in gear. If you still have a manual transmission, and accidentally place the transmission in the wrong gear (Ex. Mack in 3rd instead of 5th) you will have a much lower speedometer reading than normal. (3 mph vs 15 mph)
    KuhShise,
    I checked our latest new 2011 rig last night. The speedometer reads about 18 mph at idle with the pump engaged. And goes back to (o) when the trans is shifted back to neutral. Just like all the mechanical transmissions over the years. I was told the speedo signal comes from the trans computer to the J1939 gage package. I was also told this signal could be programmed to the off position. So if you have an electronic rig that does not have this capability, it could be a programming choice made by the truck manufactuer to not show this input.

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by donethat View Post
    KuhShise,
    I checked our latest new 2011 rig last night. The speedometer reads about 18 mph at idle with the pump engaged. And goes back to (o) when the trans is shifted back to neutral. Just like all the mechanical transmissions over the years. I was told the speedo signal comes from the trans computer to the J1939 gage package. I was also told this signal could be programmed to the off position. So if you have an electronic rig that does not have this capability, it could be a programming choice made by the truck manufactuer to not show this input.
    donethat is correct. The speedo reading has to be acknowledged through a laptop to the trans computer. Some builders turn them off, or have them turned off. Either way, with a laptop and software, you can turn it on, or have your Allison trans dealer turn it on.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pa Wilds
    Posts
    599

    Default Thanks!

    donethat & FireMech: Really appreciate the info. Guess we need to have the Sutphen "Re-sparked" to bring up the speed-o reading. I always depended upon this when we had the old mechanical shift Macks. Never thought much about it as we advanced through the Pierce, and just thought it was the way things were when we got the Sutphen. The KME engine and aerial both read before you exit the cab. Never gave it much thought. Thanks again.
    Last edited by KuhShise; 03-10-2011 at 11:29 PM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. World Of Fire Report: 07-21-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-24-2005, 09:05 AM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 07-17-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-19-2005, 12:30 AM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 06-28-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-03-2005, 02:08 PM
  4. Need help with large warehouse
    By arhaney in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 03-11-2005, 11:27 AM
  5. Pump Prime Tutorial
    By svfd162 in forum The Engineer
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-27-2002, 10:04 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register