EMS Educational Standards

[bossteen]

Broadening & raising a standard are two different things.

You want to further your education...by all means...DO IT.

You want to raise educational standards because you think it will create better medics/intermediates/basics...I fly the BS flag. To me it's just another reason for some EMT's to say, "Hey, I got a degree. Give me more money!"
I've seen some of the best medics come from a certificate class, & the worst come from a college. Experience can be your best teacher.

Are you of the opinion that a full time fire academy is a waste of time? After all, a full time academy is not needed, but I would argue it makes a better entry level FF than a part time FF1/2 class.

Do you believe a fire science degree gives a FF a better understanding of fire behavior than someone without that educatio, assuming the same experience? Not everyone has the benmefit of the fire load of FDNY or the EMS experience of a high performance high volume ALS system, clearly with all experience equal, the better educated member will have a better understanding therefore higher likelyhood of making the best decision for the situation.

[ffscm72]

Are you of the opinion that a full time fire academy is a waste of time? After all, a full time academy is not needed, but I would argue it makes a better entry level FF than a part time FF1/2 class.

As a volunteer I say...yes (learn the basics & help on an awareness level). As career employee...no. (learn more to advance yourself any chance you get). I believe I see what direction you're taking with this...But you & I have seen some GREAT fire facilities that don't require the AA or BS degree from a college to make great FF I'm sure.

Do you believe a fire science degree gives a FF a better understanding of fire behavior than someone without that education, assuming the same experience? Not everyone has the benmefit of the fire load of FDNY or the EMS experience of a high performance high volume ALS system, clearly with all experience equal, the better educated member will have a better understanding therefore higher likely hood of making the best decision for the situation.

Would you say that the conferences that I'm sure you attend are a waste of time because it's not a full time class? Of course not you get great information from those w/ the experience we sometimes lack.

[ffscm72]

Right, I was just trying not to make the job out to be more than it is. After all, we aren't doctors.

there is the cockiness i was speaking of...grant it's a joke. But there you feel that you are doing more....That cric isn't staying in forever. it will be replaced. So you can do it...whooptie doo. Doesn't make you more than what you are...An EMT w/ advance skills. but still an EMT. Y

You still haven't been able to tell me why you would need an AA or BS degree to do the skills that you do. All i've heard thus far is how much of a "god" you are because you have advance skills. Skills that anyone can learn. ANYONE. you're not that special....Needed yes, special no.

There isn't much science involved. It's good to know why things are happening but ultimately it boils down to this.

A physician (at least in our state) gives you a written set of guide lines.
If you see this, read this, smell this (whatever)...do this.
You can use these drugs for this...but not this
You can use these diagnostic tools...for this or that
You can use these tools for these specific criteria

The actual science is done after the patient leaves your hands & into the hands of a qualified physician. You just keep them stable, & give them your initial finding as well if your treatment(s) (he/she told you how to do) work or not.

to me it's like this
EMT-B = entry level FF (is shown how to do basic task, the grunt)<--this would be me
EMT-I= Exp. FF to Lt. (has the exp & given some more responsibilities[i shouldn't say much about EMT-I as do not have that here in my state.])
EMT-P= Cpt. to ***. Chief (has furthered his exp with some for courses, & has responsibilities that the other 2 do not. Can make decisions like the head cheese, but of course have to be approved prior to or during.)<---this would be you
Physicians= The Chief (Responsibility for it all. He makes the policies as well as procedures & in some cases the procedures, depending on the state & local law.)<---not you or me no matter how much we think we know. I've accepted my role...have you? I doesn't really sound like it.

[JohnVBFD]

there is the cockiness i was speaking of...grant it's a joke. But there you feel that you are doing more....That cric isn't staying in forever. it will be replaced. So you can do it...whooptie doo. Doesn't make you more than what you are...An EMT w/ advance skills. but still an EMT. Y

Honestly, you are in the 2%. No matter what anyone says, you are not open to any other option/opinion/thought..but the one you have.

Quite honestly you are being the LA of this thread. You are arguing vehemently against improving the base eduction of a higher position for no reason what so ever.

[Iceman26]

there is the cockiness i was speaking of...grant it's a joke. But there you feel that you are doing more....That cric isn't staying in forever. it will be replaced. So you can do it...whooptie doo. Doesn't make you more than what you are...An EMT w/ advance skills. but still an EMT. Y

You still haven't been able to tell me why you would need an AA or BS degree to do the skills that you do. All i've heard thus far is how much of a "god" you are because you have advance skills. Skills that anyone can learn. ANYONE. you're not that special....Needed yes, special no.

There isn't much science involved. It's good to know why things are happening but ultimately it boils down to this.

A physician (at least in our state) gives you a written set of guide lines.
If you see this, read this, smell this (whatever)...do this.
You can use these drugs for this...but not this
You can use these diagnostic tools...for this or that
You can use these tools for these specific criteria

The actual science is done after the patient leaves your hands & into the hands of a qualified physician. You just keep them stable, & give them your initial finding as well if your treatment(s) (he/she told you how to do) work or not.

to me it's like this
EMT-B = entry level FF (is shown how to do basic task, the grunt)<--this would be me
EMT-I= Exp. FF to Lt. (has the exp & given some more responsibilities[i shouldn't say much about EMT-I as do not have that here in my state.])
EMT-P= Cpt. to ***. Chief (has furthered his exp with some for courses, & has responsibilities that the other 2 do not. Can make decisions like the head cheese, but of course have to be approved prior to or during.)<---this would be you
Physicians= The Chief (Responsibility for it all. He makes the policies as well as procedures & in some cases the procedures, depending on the state & local law.)<---not you or me no matter how much we think we know. I've accepted my role...have you? I doesn't really sound like it.

Where do you get this from? I haven't seen one person in here even intimate they think they are anything close to a god. I sure haven't, nor have I been cocky about anything. I made a joke about a skill I hopefully never have to use. I don't think I'm a doctor, I don't pretend to be one. The disconnect here is in making your point as such that we are in fact not doctors, is that you're completely cutting down the level of certification and skill. Whether you're doing that on purpose or not, I don't know, but you're doing it. Not anyone can learn the stuff, let alone be good at it. There's a reason people fail out of paramedic school all the time, sometimes on multiple tries. There's a reason not everyone wants to go through the training and spend the time and money it takes just to get a certification that takes on a considerable more amount of responsibility. That's why this debate's strayed from the actual topic of whether a degree would be helpful or not and has come down to defending a level of certification and what it entails. Your complete lack of respect and attitude toward paramedics is nothing short of insulting, and while not a doctor or anything close to it, I sure as hell have earned the right to more respect than that for the position I hold.

And no, I'm not someone with some paragod complex. I'd just as soon do what's within my scope and get a patient to definitive care of the hospital than try to do too much and look like the hero. Things can get complicated enough on their own, I don't need to make them more so. And I love having good EMT's around (sorry, EMT-B's, I don't want you to remind me again that we're all the same I just have a different letter and a few more simple skills at my disposal) because great Basics make the medic's job a hell of a lot easier and make them look that much better. When you have bad Basics and you're having to do everything it makes it that much harder, so when I have Basics there that work hard and care about their jobs, I appreciate them as much as anyone. I treat them well, with respect, and as equals, and will help out with their duties after the run when my job is done if there is time. You have an obvious hate-boner for paramedics, whether all the ones you work with are the bad or what, but that's no excuse to be so narrow-minded and spiteful about things. I've had some horsecrap EMT's in my day but I don't view them all in that light. I give everyone a chance.

As for making it a mandatory degree, I don't know. I see both sides of the debate and haven't made up my mind yet. It wouldn't be the worst idea and I certainly wouldn't be up in arms about it. Easier to say now that I'm already one and wouldn't have to make a degree myself but there are definitely a lot of benefits to doing that, I think. Still up in the air on it.

[FireMedic049]

there is the cockiness i was speaking of...grant it's a joke. But there you feel that you are doing more....That cric isn't staying in forever. it will be replaced. So you can do it...whooptie doo.

That wasn't "cockiness", that was mocking you. There is a difference.

I don't "feel that (I'm) doing more", for many of my patients I am doing more than an EMT can.

Doesn't make you more than what you are...An EMT w/ advance skills. but still an EMT.

See, this is another example of you devaluing the job. You are acknowledging there is a difference between an EMT and a Paramedic and at the same time insinuating that they are the same.

You still haven't been able to tell me why you would need an AA or BS degree to do the skills that you do.

You're right, I haven't told you why a degree is needed and there's a reason why I haven't done that. I don't think that the degree is needed in order to be a good medic, but I understand the reason why some feel that way.

In general, I couldn't care less if that becomes the requirement. For one, it probably wouldn't apply to current paramedics, I already have a college degree (non-Fire/EMS related B.S.) plus by the time that becomes the standard, I could very well be no longer providing care as a Paramedic.

All i've heard thus far is how much of a "god" you are because you have advance skills. Skills that anyone can learn. ANYONE. you're not that special....Needed yes, special no.

That may be all you are hearing, however that's not what is being said. Yes, just about anybody could learn to do any individual skill in the Paramedic "tool box". However, not everybody can put together the entire package as evidenced in part by a Paramedic graduation rate of less than 100% of everybody that enters the training program.

I'm not saying that I'm "special" in any fashion. For the most part, anything I can do as a paramedic could be done by any other paramedic in the country - some better, some worse and a lot just the same. So, I'm clearly not "special". However, as a Paramedic, I am absolutely different than an EMT. Not "better", just different because I have more education/training, additional skills and tools along with a lot more responsibility and accountability using them.

There isn't much science involved. It's good to know why things are happening but ultimately it boils down to this.

A physician (at least in our state) gives you a written set of guide lines.
If you see this, read this, smell this (whatever)...do this.
You can use these drugs for this...but not this
You can use these diagnostic tools...for this or that
You can use these tools for these specific criteria

The actual science is done after the patient leaves your hands & into the hands of a qualified physician. You just keep them stable, & give them your initial finding as well if your treatment(s) (he/she told you how to do) work or not.

to me it's like this
EMT-B = entry level FF (is shown how to do basic task, the grunt)<--this would be me
EMT-I= Exp. FF to Lt. (has the exp & given some more responsibilities[i shouldn't say much about EMT-I as do not have that here in my state.])
EMT-P= Cpt. to ***. Chief (has furthered his exp with some for courses, & has responsibilities that the other 2 do not. Can make decisions like the head cheese, but of course have to be approved prior to or during.)<---this would be you
Physicians= The Chief (Responsibility for it all. He makes the policies as well as procedures & in some cases the procedures, depending on the state & local law.)<---not you or me no matter how much we think we know.

You sure are dancing around a lot in this discussion and pretty much the only thing you're accomplishing is reaffirming the conclusion that you know far less than you think you do.

Let's recap a little here. You say that your issue is that some Paramedics think they are gods and try to make the job "more" than it is. You assert that the job of an EMT and a Paramedic are the same. You are shown clear examples that that isn't the case. You assert that we do not diagnose and have no discretion in treating our patients. You are told that that isn't the case either. You continue to dispute all of these things even though I'm not the only one telling you this. Now you are trying to drag "science" into the discussion?

I've accepted my role...have you? I doesn't really sound like it.

I've accepted what my role is and I'm pretty darn good at it too. It probably doesn't sound like it to you because it's hard to hear good with your head up your *****!

[L-Webb]

Are any of your states using the EMT-A yet?

GA just started this year, I not sure if the EMT-I can stay at that level or if they have to bridge over. No problem for me as I will be a medic by christmas.. Man I'm jittery about that.
Not scared, I just understand the weight of the job.

[jtucker1384]

Are any of your states using the EMT-A yet?

GA just started this year, I not sure if the EMT-I can stay at that level or if they have to bridge over. No problem for me as I will be a medic by christmas.. Man I'm jittery about that.
Not scared, I just understand the weight of the job.

I totally agree there is definitely more responsibility when you are a medic as apposed to an EMT. Oh I'm sorry I mean EMT-B. I should have my license not to much longer after Christmas. I have to say the guy that has been posting his stupidity is gravely mistaken it takes so much more to become a medic than he thinks. Oh damn I did it again I mean EMT-P. If I recall to get my basic license i did what was it a total of like 36 hours of clinicals. Shoot I did that much in like the first week of doing clinicals in medic. It take time and dedication to become a medic and its proven with every class out there when you start a class with like 20-25 and graduate with 10 that is proof in itself not everyone is cut out to be a medic. I have spent more time studying and spending a lot of my free time at hospitals and on ambulances while making no money than a EMT would even think about. I as well as I'm sure everyone who has ever taken medic and is a paramedic takes offense to the crap this guy is saying and discrediting everything we work for and towards. He is probably someone who tried and failed miserably at becoming a paramedic.

[efd808]

there is the cockiness i was speaking of...grant it's a joke. But there you feel that you are doing more....That cric isn't staying in forever. it will be replaced. So you can do it...whooptie doo. Doesn't make you more than what you are...An EMT w/ advance skills. but still an EMT. Y

You still haven't been able to tell me why you would need an AA or BS degree to do the skills that you do. All i've heard thus far is how much of a "god" you are because you have advance skills. Skills that anyone can learn. ANYONE. you're not that special....Needed yes, special no.

There isn't much science involved. It's good to know why things are happening but ultimately it boils down to this.

A physician (at least in our state) gives you a written set of guide lines.
If you see this, read this, smell this (whatever)...do this.
You can use these drugs for this...but not this
You can use these diagnostic tools...for this or that
You can use these tools for these specific criteria

The actual science is done after the patient leaves your hands & into the hands of a qualified physician. You just keep them stable, & give them your initial finding as well if your treatment(s) (he/she told you how to do) work or not.

to me it's like this
EMT-B = entry level FF (is shown how to do basic task, the grunt)<--this would be me
EMT-I= Exp. FF to Lt. (has the exp & given some more responsibilities[i shouldn't say much about EMT-I as do not have that here in my state.])
EMT-P= Cpt. to ***. Chief (has furthered his exp with some for courses, & has responsibilities that the other 2 do not. Can make decisions like the head cheese, but of course have to be approved prior to or during.)<---this would be you
Physicians= The Chief (Responsibility for it all. He makes the policies as well as procedures & in some cases the procedures, depending on the state & local law.)<---not you or me no matter how much we think we know. I've accepted my role...have you? I doesn't really sound like it.

I'm sorry but we are doing more, I have no paragod complex and feel the local volunteers we intercept with are top notch. But really...there is a difference between a basic and a medic. In my system I don't have to call for any orders, granted we are the exception. I am in a close knit system where we call the doc's by their first names and hang out off duty. We mix epi-nebs (which isn't in our protocals) we are all critical care and can hang heparin, tridil, tpa, insulin, dobutamine, ect. I work with one of the best EMT's I know, he is a kick *** partner, and I treat the vollies with great respect and have many friends that run the rural area. But I busted my *** and spent many, many nights in a rig or the ED to learn my job, and I earned the right to call myself a Paramedic. If that is cockiness I am sorry, I am not disrespecting you, but we do a hell of alot more in the back than blood pressures

[jtucker1384]

I'm sorry but we are doing more, I have no paragod complex and feel the local volunteers we intercept with are top notch. But really...there is a difference between a basic and a medic. In my system I don't have to call for any orders, granted we are the exception. I am in a close knit system where we call the doc's by their first names and hang out off duty. We mix epi-nebs (which isn't in our protocals) we are all critical care and can hang heparin, tridil, tpa, insulin, dobutamine, ect. I work with one of the best EMT's I know, he is a kick *** partner, and I treat the vollies with great respect and have many friends that run the rural area. But I busted my *** and spent many, many nights in a rig or the ED to learn my job, and I earned the right to call myself a Paramedic. If that is cockiness I am sorry, I am not disrespecting you, but we do a hell of alot more in the back than blood pressures

Amen well said brother

[ChiefKN]

in Delaware they have raised the standards for EMT-P's to must have AA. I personally think it's stupid being you are nothing more than an EMT with way more drugs. Your job is to wheel & heal. You are not a rolling Dr. Do your job, treat the symptom as it presents itself & get the patient to definitive treatment facility. That's all you are meant to do. Not diagnose the problem. Just treat the symptom & transport to a Doctor w/ 9 years of medical school & a life time of training. Also so medics should not be allowed to be medic w/o having at least 5 years of BLS under their belt....I'm a lil' anti-medic. TO many of ya think you're gods (not all). But the more of you that go thru college to be a medic tend to be WAY to cocky for your own good. Give me a medic that took the non-college course & has a life time of experience over any of these NKOTB!

I had to go back through the thread for this...

I disagree.

In New Jersey, the "paramedics" are Mobile Intensive Care Paramedics... and that's an accurate description.

The comment that they are EMTs with more drugs... is to really not understand what they are doing in the field.

They are pushing IV medications. For most RN's that is a big deal.

I think that it would be worthwhile for the Paramedic level to require college level education.

[jtucker1384]

I had to go back through the thread for this...

I disagree.

In New Jersey, the "paramedics" are Mobile Intensive Care Paramedics... and that's an accurate description.

The comment that they are EMTs with more drugs... is to really not understand what they are doing in the field.

They are pushing IV medications. For most RN's that is a big deal.

I think that it would be worthwhile to require the Paramedic level to require college level education is worthwhile.

To even expand further on this I did a clinical and a nurse was there and she was about to start her last year in nursing. She couldn't push drugs, do IV's or anything like that. Also in most cases medics in an ER can do just as much as nurse and sometimes more.

[ffscm72]

You all can continue to think highly of yourselves if you wish...that is fine. I don't dispute that you have a lot of responsibilities & are very much needed. But when it comes down to it...most (dependent on the state) ride on the coat tails of some physician to do your job. Your job is the same as any other EMT (w/ more responsibility in respects to drugs). Otherwise, it aint that deep (nor shallow); assess, treat to stabilize, & transport. You show your ignorance by trying to make job sound harder than what it is. To those of you that know where your place is, my hats off to you. You make the job a heck of a lot easier & better to work with.
This can go on & on & on & it is plainly obvious we have different opinions. Every place is different if you work in a place that allows more than what we do here...awesome keep up the good work. Stay safe & out of this crazy heat!

[ChiefKN]

You all can continue to think highly of yourselves if you wish...that is fine. I don't dispute that you have a lot of responsibilities & are very much needed. But when it comes down to it...most (dependent on the state) ride on the coat tails of some physician to do your job. Your job is the same as any other EMT (w/ more responsibility in respects to drugs). Otherwise, it aint that deep (nor shallow); assess, treat to stabilize, & transport. You show your ignorance by trying to make job sound harder than what it is. To those of you that know where your place is, my hats off to you. You make the job a heck of a lot easier & better to work with.
This can go on & on & on & it is plainly obvious we have different opinions. Every place is different if you work in a place that allows more than what we do here...awesome keep up the good work. Stay safe & out of this crazy heat!

Actually, I'm not a Paramedic and my EMT expired years ago. I'm an RN and I don't work in emergency medicine.

You continue to show your ignorance if you think that 140 hours of EMTB training is anything similar to EMTP and the years of study to get you to administer the care that an EMTP provides.

You realize that in most cases, the EMTP is providing care without the direct consultation of a physician, right? They rely on protocols. With those protocols their assessment skills and judgement are critical.

There is a world of difference between Basic and Paramedic. That difference would be better served with a solid educational background.

[JohnVBFD]

You show your ignorance by trying to make job sound harder than what it is.

You keep calling everyone else ignorant, with inflated ego's, having a god-like complex, yet you have not walked in their shoes.

What do you think that makes you? Think about that. Go back with an open mind, re-read every post you have made on this subject with a completely open mind. Hell have your child read it, and ask them who they think is being ignorant, inflating or superior.

I have no dog in the fight. I'm not a medic, I am still just what we call in Va an EMT-Enhanced who is working on EMT-I.

[ffscm72]

Actually, I'm not a Paramedic and my EMT expired years ago. I'm an RN and I don't work in emergency medicine.

You continue to show your ignorance if you think that 140 hours of EMTB training is anything similar to EMTP and the years of study to get you to administer the care that an EMTP provides.

You realize that in most cases, the EMTP is providing care without the direct consultation of a physician, right? They rely on protocols. With those protocols their assessment skills and judgement are critical.

There is a world of difference between Basic and Paramedic. That difference would be better served with a solid educational background.

that's not what I am saying...lord people are you reading my post or the parts that just **** you off most...lol SMH

All I'm saying is an EMT-P is just an EMT. NOT a basic EMT, but an EMT non the less. Limit medical knowledge, although more advance than EMT-B, but still limited. That's all i'm saying. I guess I'm just putting my point across correctly.

[efd808]

that's not what I am saying...lord people are you reading my post or the parts that just **** you off most...lol SMH

All I'm saying is an EMT-P is just an EMT. NOT a basic EMT, but an EMT non the less. Limit medical knowledge, although more advance than EMT-B, but still limited. That's all i'm saying. I guess I'm just putting my point across correctly.

No one is fighting the fact that we are ALL emt's, I am not sure what happened that made the paramedic **** up your leg. You make it sound as if we pull up in a 1970 caddy throw them in the back and bust *** to the hospital. You either just 1st respond or are on a bls squad, either way you help your community. But we don't ride the coat tails of doctors, if we screw up in the field it's on us. I will never take for granted what any emt does, but from your post you make it sound like we have a book and a phone to do my job.


You keep talking of these doctors like one of them is hiding in the street side compartment and i just open the door and get orders, I had a 3 y/o hit at 65 by a semi on the interstate once, when we got there bystanders said a doctor threw him in his own car and left for the hospital......he was a urologist!!! The kid died, would the outcome have been the same, I am quite sure. We do much more on our own without the advice of the puppetmaster.

Now I have nothing against you and wish you nothing but the best, but quit making it sound as if we are trained at the same level. I have never treated a basic as if he were under me, nor will I ever. Have a good day and stay safe out there....ambulance driver...just kidding bud!!

[ffscm72]

You keep talking of these doctors like one of them is hiding in the street side compartment and i just open the door and get orders, I had a 3 y/o hit at 65 by a semi on the interstate once, when we got there bystanders said a doctor threw him in his own car and left for the hospital......he was a urologist!!! The kid died, would the outcome have been the same, I am quite sure. We do much more on our own without the advice of the puppetmaster.

Now I have nothing against you and wish you nothing but the best, but quit making it sound as if we are trained at the same level. I have never treated a basic as if he were under me, nor will I ever. Have a good day and stay safe out there....ambulance driver...just kidding bud!!

SMH again...lol I know we are not trained at the same level. But the job is the same...different level...same job...different level..same job. Maybe if I say it over & over again ya'll will get what I'm trying to say...lol

[ChiefKN]

that's not what I am saying...lord people are you reading my post or the parts that just **** you off most...lol SMH

All I'm saying is an EMT-P is just an EMT. NOT a basic EMT, but an EMT non the less. Limit medical knowledge, although more advance than EMT-B, but still limited. That's all i'm saying. I guess I'm just putting my point across correctly.

I'm not ****ed, not at all...

If your point is that EMTP has the actual letters E.M.T. in the name, then I understand. Otherwise, I have no fricking clue what your point is.

As for "limited medical knowledge".... you could say that about a neurosurgeon too... their knowledge is limited, in large part, to their specialty. Again, not sure what your point is.

[ChiefKN]

SMH again...lol I know we are not trained at the same level. But the job is the same...different level...same job...different level..same job. Maybe if I say it over & over again ya'll will get what I'm trying to say...lol

Just because they dress the same and respond to the same calls does not mean that "the job is the same".

It is not.