Thread: Big Ladder

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    Default Big Ladder

    My department is going to looking at a new ladder truck purchase. I would like to consider something in excess of 100'. Does anyone have any experience with a ladder this large that can share pro's and con's? I would really like to explore the idea of a 121' stick. We have been hampered many times in the past with our 75' stick not having the reach to be effective for the setbacks in our area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firesarge69 View Post
    My department is going to looking at a new ladder truck purchase. I would like to consider something in excess of 100'. Does anyone have any experience with a ladder this large that can share pro's and con's? I would really like to explore the idea of a 121' stick. We have been hampered many times in the past with our 75' stick not having the reach to be effective for the setbacks in our area.
    E-One's offering a 137' aerial and I believe utilizing the same, "best on the market" jacking system and with their "never had a failure" reputation. I'm not a salesman nor a user actually, but I cannot overlook the facts as presented. If they'll build other features as you need, then I can't find fault with wanting their product.

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    Of course you know that even with 200' ladder, there will be times when you'll say, "Man, if we just had 10 more feet of ladder."

    Ole' man Murphy.

    C6

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    First of all, I think you need to define the reach you are looking for a little more clearly.

    If you're talking setbacks, then I take it to mean you're talking more so about side reach. Just be aware that when you get into these longer ladders like the 137' that you are going to have reduced tip loads while at full extension at 0 degrees. For a lot of people, this is OK and works great for them but its something you need to be aware of.

    In the case of the 137', you don't get the full 750 tip load until side reach is reduced to 82'. It's difficult to get much more side reach then that without a heavier chassis with that tall of a ladder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddmcbr View Post
    First of all, I think you need to define the reach you are looking for a little more clearly.

    If you're talking setbacks, then I take it to mean you're talking more so about side reach. Just be aware that when you get into these longer ladders like the 137' that you are going to have reduced tip loads while at full extension at 0 degrees. For a lot of people, this is OK and works great for them but its something you need to be aware of.

    In the case of the 137', you don't get the full 750 tip load until side reach is reduced to 82'. It's difficult to get much more side reach then that without a heavier chassis with that tall of a ladder.
    Good advice, and something that should be investigated early in the process.

    C6

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddmcbr View Post
    First of all, I think you need to define the reach you are looking for a little more clearly.

    If you're talking setbacks, then I take it to mean you're talking more so about side reach. Just be aware that when you get into these longer ladders like the 137' that you are going to have reduced tip loads while at full extension at 0 degrees. For a lot of people, this is OK and works great for them but its something you need to be aware of.

    In the case of the 137', you don't get the full 750 tip load until side reach is reduced to 82'. It's difficult to get much more side reach then that without a heavier chassis with that tall of a ladder.
    Smeal's 125 gives you 121' of reach horizontal.500# at the tip flowing water UNRESTRICTED. Just another one to add to the list. T.c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    E-One's offering a 137' aerial and I believe utilizing the same, "best on the market" jacking system and with their "never had a failure" reputation. I'm not a salesman nor a user actually, but I cannot overlook the facts as presented. If they'll build other features as you need, then I can't find fault with wanting their product.
    Watched this ladder at work at the E-One plant. That is a long way to reach! Was flowing full volume a 0 degrees.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    I hear ya on the reach! We, too went with a 105' stick primarily for horizontal reach. Our tallest buildings are two old mills, and are 4.5 stories each- and set right alongside the street. However, being in the sticks, we have MANY houses set well off the road often 50' plus in the village, hundreds outside... Also have two garden apartment complexes, a senior living community accessable on only 2 sides, a small strip mall, some light industrial, 3 large schools, etc.

    About the only time the stick is used for height is in drills and/or water tower mode.

    The guys are right on- make sure you do your research, and discuss with the manuf's EXACTLY what you plan on doing with your ladder. This is NOT a good application for an NFPA minimum light duty aerial.

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    I will keep these things in mind when I start my resaerch. Is the top fly section of the large ladders too narrow to be FF friendly or are they still workable? Our current ladder has a comfortable width on the top fly. By the way we set up on a working fire yesterday morning and came up about 20 feet short of reaching the gutter on the street side, very disapointing!

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    The E-One 137 was plenty wide enough for an average guy.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    The E-One 137 was plenty wide enough for an average guy.
    Regardless of length, I've always found that E-One's fly section is wider than any other ladder on the market.

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    The top four fly sections of the five section 137' ladder are the same size as the four sections of the 110' ladder that Boston and many other departments run. The bottom fly is the same size as the bottom fly section of the 95' platform with the same outriggers as the 95' platform. They are hanging more fly sections off the end instead of a big platform.

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    Sutphen sells a very nice 100' stright stick. It has a 3:1 safety factor and a 500 lb. tip load at any angle flowing water. I have ridden on Sutphen many times, that is what Dalton has. Very nice trucks. The ladder is very rigid and sound, though a bit bouncey without a platform

    E-one's HP100 is also a very nice rig. It has a 550lb. tip load wet, but they don't specify what angles that is good for. It has a 2.5:1 safety factor rating. I have also ridden an E-One truck, that is what we have here at Havelock.

    As you can see, they're very close in performance. The main difference is the box frame ladder that the Sutphen has, it is claimed to make it stronger. I really couldn't tell if that were true or not. Personally, I prefer the Sutphen, better built and they last longer chassis wise). Dalton has 3 E-One pumpers, they're not holding up nearly as well as the older Sutphen 100' tower Dalton has. Unfortunately, Sutphen doesn't offer anything over 100' in a straight stick, and only 110' in their platform option.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 03-10-2011 at 11:16 PM.

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    If the E-One uses the same jacks as its 95 ft tower ladder you'll love the truck. The jacks set up in no time. No pinning, low to the ground(step over them) and if you can open the cab door fully, you can jack the truck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    E-One's offering a 137' aerial and I believe utilizing the same, "best on the market" jacking system and with their "never had a failure" reputation. I'm not a salesman nor a user actually, but I cannot overlook the facts as presented. If they'll build other features as you need, then I can't find fault with wanting their product.
    We recently replaced an old 135' E-One, and I can tell you with utmost certainty that had they offered it or the new 137' when we made our purchase we would have stuck with it. As fate would have it, it wasnt available so it was replaced with an E-One 100 tiller. The 135 was built in 89' and due to boro replacement agreement, it was due for replacement. It was Purchased by Pooler FD in Pooler Georgia and will placed into front line service.
    The Rig was truely awesome. From an engineering standpoint, you had 135' stick on a jack span of 13'8", impressive. It was awesome and by far the easiest rig we had to drive and the OAL was only 44' from tip of ladder to tailboard. For those that need or want the extra reach it is a phenomenal rig.
    The 137, from what im told by people at e-one is basically the same rig, only on a Cyclone 2 chassis. There were some minor changes to the aerial itself, making it stronger and able to meet newer NFPA standards, but basically the same. The Jack system was improved however it's span in now a foot wider at 14'8. I can go on and on about the rig but in all honesty, the only thing I can suggest is to call e-one and ask to have it visit your firehouse. Look at it, take it for a spin, and by all means climb it, 35 more feet doesn't sound like much but its a BIG difference, and one hell of a view. Best of luck and if you have any questions feel free to ask.
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post

    E-one's HP100 is also a very nice rig. It has a 550lb. tip load wet, but they don't specify what angles that is good for.
    Good luck.
    As per NFPA, the "rated" tip load must be at any angle and extension. Sp the tip load must be the same at full extension straight up or straight off the side of the rig.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoofTopTrucky View Post
    As per NFPA, the "rated" tip load must be at any angle and extension. Sp the tip load must be the same at full extension straight up or straight off the side of the rig.
    That is not correct. What it actually means is you cannot call it a 750 pound tip load ladder unless it will take the 750 pounds "carried on the outermost rung of the outermost fly section with the aerial ladder placed in the horizontal position." Further the aerial must be able to carry its rated capacity in any configuration.

    There is a paragraph that allows for multiple ratings in multiple configurations.

    Any modern aerial will accommodate a higher tip load at elevation as opposed to horizontal since there is less reliance on the jack system (1.5:1 safety factor) and more on the structure (2:1 safety factor.) In the case of the 137' ladder the horizontal ratings are drastically reduced since the jack spread is narrow. With a wider jack spread they could stretch that 82', 750 pound reach but then they couldn't claim the 2.5:1 safety factor they advertise. So, they picked their marketing angle and went with it since most people aren't buying long ladders for horizontal reach.

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    Default Comments on the E-ONE CR137

    I wanted to take a minute to clear up a couple of items in your conversation about the E-ONE 137 ft. ladder. For full disclosure, I am an E-ONE employee.

    The CR137 is a 5 section aluminum ladder.
    The outermost fly section is an impressive 19.75 inches wide and just slightly less than 18 inches high.
    The base section is even more impressive at over 48.5 inches wide and a little less than 33.5 inches tall.
    The jack spread is the same as the CR100 and 95 Platform, or 13 ft. 8 inches fully deployed.
    The range of operation is from -4 to 80 degrees.
    The tip load at full extension, zero degrees is 250 lbs. dry and zero while flowing water.
    At full extension, tip loads increase up to 750 lbs. dry and 500 lbs. while flowing water depending on the angle of operation.
    Equipment allowances are in addition to these ratings.
    The side reach, based on NFPA, is 126 ft.
    The usable side reach (from end of jack to the end of the ladder) is 119 ft. 2 in.
    All E-ONE aerials carry a 2.5 to 1 aerial structural safety, exceeding the NFPA requirement of 2.0 to 1. This is based on full extension, at zero degrees.
    We exceed NFPA's 1.5 to 1 Stability requirement at full, extension zero degrees.

    There was also a question about the HP100.
    Angle of operation is -6 to 76 degrees.
    Tip load is 500 lbs. manpower plus equipment, wet or dry, at full extension, zero degrees, for the entire range of operation.
    Jack spread is 12 ft. fully deployed.

    The above information can be found on our aerial load and reach charts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoofTopTrucky View Post
    As per NFPA, the "rated" tip load must be at any angle and extension. Sp the tip load must be the same at full extension straight up or straight off the side of the rig.
    Well, there ya go, there's that answer. Thank you sir.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turfderf2 View Post
    I wanted to take a minute to clear up a couple of items in your conversation about the E-ONE 137 ft. ladder. For full disclosure, I am an E-ONE employee.

    The CR137 is a 5 section aluminum ladder.
    The outermost fly section is an impressive 19.75 inches wide and just slightly less than 18 inches high.
    The base section is even more impressive at over 48.5 inches wide and a little less than 33.5 inches tall.
    The jack spread is the same as the CR100 and 95 Platform, or 13 ft. 8 inches fully deployed.
    The range of operation is from -4 to 80 degrees.
    The tip load at full extension, zero degrees is 250 lbs. dry and zero while flowing water.
    At full extension, tip loads increase up to 750 lbs. dry and 500 lbs. while flowing water depending on the angle of operation.
    Equipment allowances are in addition to these ratings.
    The side reach, based on NFPA, is 126 ft.
    The usable side reach (from end of jack to the end of the ladder) is 119 ft. 2 in.
    All E-ONE aerials carry a 2.5 to 1 aerial structural safety, exceeding the NFPA requirement of 2.0 to 1. This is based on full extension, at zero degrees.
    We exceed NFPA's 1.5 to 1 Stability requirement at full, extension zero degrees.

    There was also a question about the HP100.
    Angle of operation is -6 to 76 degrees.
    Tip load is 500 lbs. manpower plus equipment, wet or dry, at full extension, zero degrees, for the entire range of operation.
    Jack spread is 12 ft. fully deployed.

    The above information can be found on our aerial load and reach charts.
    Havelock has an E-One HP75, very nice truck. I love the simplicity of set-up. I came from a Sutphen background. Dalton had E-ones when I got there, engines that is. They were the Hush pumpers. Kinda burned me on E-Ones until I started at Havelock where they have the HP75. Glad ya'll got rid of the Hush man, garbage.

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    We have Five SMeal 125's and they work great Nice to drive, ride in and climb. Plenty of room on the fly and I am a big guy. Never climbed and E one but i am sure they are nice climbed a pierce, ALF, and Stuphen and I will take the smeal over them any day. I looked at a pic of the 137 and it looks like the waterway doesn't go all the way to the top. I like the fact that in the SMeal 125 it goes all the way to the top. JMO.

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