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  1. #61
    Forum Member FIREMECH1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    To answer an earlier post on axle weights- The DOT laws cover commercial vehicles, they're federal, not state.
    Excellent point.

    I went through our next pumper order specs today, and one of the requirements was the point that the axle weight must follow under Federal, not State laws.

    I know you said commercial, but I assume it also implies or includes custom fire apparatuses. Correct me if I am wrong.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    To answer an earlier post on axle weights-

    The DOT laws cover commercial vehicles, they're federal, not state. For dually axles or super singles it's 20,000#. 34,000# for a set of tandem axles.
    Maximum gross vehicle weight is 80,000#. Anything more than that and you need a special permit- for EACH load.

    The first is the reason you see a lot of semi trailers with spread axles- that way, each can have 20k# on it.

    Steer axles are allowed 12,000. Certain types of tires will allow more, but the GVWR remains the same.

    Technically, that single rear axle quint would have a gvwr of 32,000#... Exceptions probably exist, but why design a rig that's overweight by federal standards? The weight limits are there for a reason. Strait trucks intended to carry Heavy loads get extra axles- to increase braking power!

    I'd be interested to see a CAT scale ticket for one of those quints.
    On the steer it is just more than tires that allows you to go over 12,000. Axle, wheels and tires all have to be rated for the weight carried. While the 12,34,34 rule is a federal rule it for interstate highways. Some states allow different axle weights and some have different gross weights. All of that pertains to a 5 axle closed axle semi. The only thing that the feds care about is the interstates.

    Many of the custom firetrucks are running upward to 20,000 pound steer axles on them.

  3. #63
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    HERE, they are Exempt. For now.Ran a experiment to run 100,000 on State Interstate highways. It was a Success so you may find Maine law changing to permanently allow it. Time will tell. T.C.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    Excellent point.

    I went through our next pumper order specs today, and one of the requirements was the point that the axle weight must follow under Federal, not State laws.

    I know you said commercial, but I assume it also implies or includes custom fire apparatuses. Correct me if I am wrong.

    FM1
    Nah, I meant commercial vehicles, as in trucks, not commercial chassis...
    Sorry for the confusion!

    As for the steer axle, I knew there must be more to it. That's just what the company told us during training- keeping it simple so as not to confuse the window lickers and knuckle draggers, I guess...

    Without a set of specs handy, it's kind of hard to differentiate between a heavy duty front end and an overweight one when crossing a scale. I always prefer NOT to have to pull over and get looked over by the DOT guys!

    Rescue1: I'm not surprised to hear that for Maine. Lots of heavy loads moving around up there: logging trucks, paper loads, and Poland Spring. That last one just loves to cram trailers FULL of bottles and jugs of water- regardless of what it weighs... Water loads suck, esp in hill country.

  5. #65
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    Wasn't this thread about the new batch of FDNY RMA's. Please note that a vehicle is not considered unsafe if its total loaded weight (GVWR) or axle loading (GAWR) is greater than local, state or federal weight laws. Those laws are more tailored to reduce road and infrastructure damage. If a MFG certifies a tandem axle & its associated components (i.e. brakes) with a capacity (GAWR) of 44,000 pounds that is exactly what it has been designed to be safely loaded and operated at. While you may be subject to a ticket for being over the 34,000 lb tandem axle weight law this doesn’t mean the vehicle is unsafe and is being operated beyond its designed GVWR or GAWR.

    Most Custom fire apparatus are equipped with 18,000 to 22,000 lb GAWR front axles due to the Cab over design and ability to place a greater % of the weight forward. Note the location of the Booster Tank, Pump and Engine on the chassis. A 12,000 lb front axle would never cut on today’s custom rigs ---- many - many years ago the Mack’s as well as many others were a bit light on the front axle capacities. The location of the toque box on Midmount Tower Ladders necessitates the use of front axles with a GAWR of 21,500 lbs and the wheel bases on these units must be shortened in order to try and get some of that weight off the front axle and shifted to the rear tandems thus resulting in a substantial rear overhang – tail swing. In some cases counter balance weights are placed on the chassis to the rear of the tandems to get some of the weight off the front axle.

    Here are the weight laws for NYC, NYS and the Feds. You should check those for your State and Municipalities. They may be similar to those listed below and provide specific regulations for fire apparatus/municipal vehicles like NYS has.

    New York City Weight Laws.
    • Weight per inch width of tire on one wheel 800 lbs.
    • Weight on any one wheel 11,200 lbs.
    • Weight on any one axle 22,400 lbs.
    • Weight on any two consecutive axles less than 10 feet a part 36,000 lbs.
    • Weight on any three axles (34,000 lb. Plus 1,000 lb. per foot and major fraction of a foot between first and last axles, measured center to center).
    • Total weight of vehicle shall not exceed 80,000 lbs.

    New York State Weight Laws for Fire Vehicles.
    • The total weight on any one wheel shall not be more than 16,000 lbs.
    • The total weight on a single axle shall not be more than 32,000 lbs.
    • The total weight on two consecutive axles, when such axles are spaced less than ten feet from center to center, shall not be more than 42,000 lbs.
    • The total weight on all axles of a two axle vehicle shall not be more than 52,000 thousand pounds.

    Federal Weight Laws applicable to the Interstate Highway System.
    • Single Axle: 20,000 pounds
    • Tandem Axle: 34,000 pounds
    • Gross Vehicle Weight: 80,000 pounds

    Be Careful.

  6. #66
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    Just viewed pics on the FFA website. I must say, this looks like a very nice body design! In particular, I like the grab n go extinguisher cmpt, and that nifty compartment they designed for the clip on pipe. Opens on top AND on the side. I can see the top flap getting in the way, though- perhaps it could be made hinged on one side, to open flat against the top of the body. Either way, it looks like a hell of a rig!

    Will any of these be shown at the Harrisburg show??

    Those rescues look good, too- THREE winches! I also like the compartments built into the rear of the body- fill em with all the search related tools, and the crew can grab em as they exit.

    Low sides open on the outside, high sides to the inside. That's one way to solve the dilemma of which tool to relagate to the top shelf ( where it's harder to get at)! Simply eliminate the high shelves. Also reduces by 50% the number of compts available to thieving bastards to rifle through.

    Is that a skylight I see in the crew compartment?

  7. #67
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    I saw the Rescue and Aerial at FDIC. Nice Rigs. Ferrara did a good job on them. The one thing that stood out to me was the brackets on each of the compartment doors that allow for a padlock to be put on them. I guess nothing is sacred in NY!

    I also saw a FDNY Engine at the Seagrave Booth. Are they still building engines for them?

    Good luck with the rigs guys!

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    Just viewed pics on the FFA website. I must say, this looks like a very nice body design! In particular, I like the grab n go extinguisher cmpt, and that nifty compartment they designed for the clip on pipe. Opens on top AND on the side. I can see the top flap getting in the way, though- perhaps it could be made hinged on one side, to open flat against the top of the body.
    They who?

    I also saw the rigs in Indy. I noticed a few things that I would take exception to. Having said that, they were mostly cosmetic, but if that is the workmanship that they decided to put on "display" at a major trade show, I would hate to see some of their standard builds.

    I am not saying the jury is out, but I am still not impressed with Ferrara.
    RK
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    They who?

    I also saw the rigs in Indy. I noticed a few things that I would take exception to. Having said that, they were mostly cosmetic, but if that is the workmanship that they decided to put on "display" at a major trade show, I would hate to see some of their standard builds.

    I am not saying the jury is out, but I am still not impressed with Ferrara.
    "they" being either the FDNY truck committee, or the FFA engineers. I assume it was FDNY who asked for the compt to be built this way. I'm not affiliated with either, and have no idea whose concept this is, so I used "They" to mean "Whomever designed this."

    For Fire562: Dirtballs will steal from anyone at anytime the opportunity presents itself- that's what makes them dirtballs... I've spoken to city guys who said they tend to equip the engines that sit at hydrants with as little as possible, because idiots will steal whatever isn't nailed down... Locking cmpts work well, too, as long as you don't lose or misplace the key!

    I agree, it's pretty #$%&ing sad when when we have to resort to this, and locking hydrant/FDC/ standpipe caps; special hydrant wrenches; or security personnel to keep an eye on the truck when we're busy helping somebody!!

  10. #70
    Forum Member Chauffeur6's Avatar
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    Junk. The city will be replacing them within 5 years because they won't be able to take the abuse. More taxpayer money flushed down the ****ter.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    I've spoken to city guys who said they tend to equip the engines that sit at hydrants with as little as possible, because idiots will steal whatever isn't nailed down...
    Huh? Many two piece companies still out there? I doubt this is the case in NYC as they are masters of standardization, with good reason.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffer6 View Post
    Junk. The city will be replacing them within 5 years because they won't be able to take the abuse. More taxpayer money flushed down the ****ter.
    What is the issue? Fit and finish? The aerial? Choice of materials?

    BTW, they won't be replacing them within 5 years... maybe the 6th. Remember, there's a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFDACM02 View Post
    Huh? Many two piece companies still out there? I doubt this is the case in NYC as they are masters of standardization, with good reason.
    Rochester, NY. They ran Quint/ midi companies for years. The midi's kept a lot of the miles off the quints by handling the EMS runs and service calls. At fires, they were a good way to avoid the not so good hoselaying/carrying ability of the quint- quint goes right to the scene, midi supplies the quint. There were issues at reverse lays, and high rise calls with a%&holes stealing stuff from the trucks.

    They're reorganizing now- the midis are on the way out ( if there are still any left, haven't been to the website in a while), and they are going to regular truck/engine houses- with quints as the truck company ( E-Ones).


    Come to think of it, did FDNY EVER run companies like that?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronsMan53 View Post
    What is the issue? Fit and finish? The aerial? Choice of materials?

    BTW, they won't be replacing them within 5 years... maybe the 6th. Remember, there's a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty.
    Not for nothing, Irons, the issues you listed are all purchaser related.

    If there were a lot of fit/finish issues, as Memphis Alluded to, it kinda makes me wonder if this rig was rushed thru post production JUST to get it to Indy in time.

    If somebody doesn't do a final inspection, or lets lots of niggling little stuff go without addressing it- then really, shame on them. The ladders esp are a total custom job- they're designed esp FOR FDNY, and they are like no others FFA makes. I can definitely see the first few off the line needing a few adjustments, esp if NY is as particular about delivery dates as they are about warranty!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaze View Post
    I don't know if anyone seen this, http://www.ferrarafire.com/CustomerS...roduction.html

    To meet it looks like the production itself is near completion, but not service. Does anyone know the companies that will be using these (pieces of junk)

    But after all a truck is only as good as its specs.
    If you look at the pics, you'll see that Rescue 3, Big Blue, is getting one of them. Already has the decals on it. The other two rescues couldn't tell ya.

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    Nevermind, read back and question was answered.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 03-29-2011 at 07:12 PM.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    You guys would put a stick, a pump, and 500 water on a single rear???
    That's what Ladder 3, my last assignment at DFD was. Never had a problem with handling as most of the weight was centrally located and the center of gravity on Sutphens is a lot lower than most aerials. It's a great truck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Two questions for everyone who has the single screw quints with 500 gallons...

    1. Are they legal according to your state's axle laws?

    2. How often do you burn through brakes?
    1. Yes, otherwise Dalton couldn't run it. The fire department has to follow all of the road laws, including license plates, that civillians have to follow.

    2. No worse thn the tandem axle tower or any of the engines.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    Not for nothing, Irons, the issues you listed are all purchaser related.

    If there were a lot of fit/finish issues, as Memphis Alluded to, it kinda makes me wonder if this rig was rushed thru post production JUST to get it to Indy in time.

    If somebody doesn't do a final inspection, or lets lots of niggling little stuff go without addressing it- then really, shame on them. The ladders esp are a total custom job- they're designed esp FOR FDNY, and they are like no others FFA makes. I can definitely see the first few off the line needing a few adjustments, esp if NY is as particular about delivery dates as they are about warranty!
    I am aware of that. I was just throwing those out there to rope him in.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire562 View Post
    I saw the Rescue and Aerial at FDIC. Nice Rigs. Ferrara did a good job on them. The one thing that stood out to me was the brackets on each of the compartment doors that allow for a padlock to be put on them. I guess nothing is sacred in NY!

    I also saw a FDNY Engine at the Seagrave Booth. Are they still building engines for them?

    Good luck with the rigs guys!
    They, Seagrave, are still in business and are still making pumpers for the FDNY.

    The Pumpers will out last the new aerials.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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