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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    I have read thru some of the other threads on the current union and collective bargaining debates and have not seen this idea mentioned. I apologize if I'm regurgitating someone elses idea.

    I work in the private sector as an auto mechanic. If all of my co-workers were to band together as a union and demand more pay and better bennie's with the threat of striking my employer would likely have to close the doors. Even if we were to only ask to be compensated equally with public employees, my employer would not be able to sustain a profitable and competitive business while absorbing the increase in labor costs.

    My power lies in my ability to sell my services to the highest bidder, not in union bargaining. Even if it means having to move my family to another location, I can and will do so. My employer knows this and compensates me as much as the market will bear to keep me happy and productive.

    Contrast that with public employees unions. Governments can raise taxes\fees or simply spend more than they take in to cover expenses such as labor costs. They can and have done this for a long time. They don't have to live within their means in the same way private business does. This simply is unsustainable and must not continue.
    Okay.. so you work in the private sector as an auto mechanic.

    The average cost of labor per hour for an automotive technician in my area is $90 an hour.

    For your employer to keep you happy and productive, if you ask for a pay increase.. he will just raise the labor rate to compensate and what he charges for parts, and also passes on a recycling fee for the waste oil. coolant and such.

    Your clients expect the same services, whether it be something as simple as an oil change or complete motor rebuild.

    So.. how is that any different from municipalities? Even if they downsize personnel, the citizens expect the same level or service... or is that "unsustainable", too?
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 03-13-2011 at 09:05 PM.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Okay.. so you work in the private sector as an auto mechanic.

    The average cost of labor per hour for an automotive technician in my area is $90 an hour.

    For your employer to keep you happy and productive, if you ask for a pay increase.. he will just raise the labor rate to compensate and what he charges for parts, and also passes on a recycling fee for the waste oil. coolant and such.

    Your clients expect the same services, whether it be something as simple as an oil change or complete motor rebuild.

    So.. how is that any different from municipalities? Even if they downsize personnel, the citizens expect the same level or service... or is that "unsustainable", too?
    What the HELL are you doing introducing logic into a discussion?
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-13-2011 at 09:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    IF a lazy slug is protected on a Union job it is because his supervisor is either too lazy or too stupid to know that he needs to document the behavior and if it happens continuously they can be fired. That is the reality despite what people who refuse to face the truth want to believe.

    You CAN be fired as a Union employee, you just can't be vindictively fired because the boss is having a bad day.

    Frankly, LA, your ignorance has never shined brighter than when you talk about Unions, and especially the IAFF. I will gladly pay my dues to the Union for all they have given me in return.
    That's great and that is your right.

    Part of the reason they don't write them up is because it's simply too difficult a process to get them fired. My father went through that many times as a state employee supervisor.

    Civil service is the same way here. Most times it's simply not worth the effort as the majority of the suspensions and firings are reversed by the board, often on very minor procedural technicalities.

    I have no use for unions in general and specifically the IAFF.

    I have seen what some of the actions of the IAFF have done to manpower levels at VFDs firsthand as we lost 2 members, and another neighboring department lost another 2 members directly because of language inserted into a career's contract directly at the request of the (IAFF) union local.

    I have also seen union member's living in our district bring up untrue information with the neighboring local's support to the town council regarding my VFDs response times and manpower levels in an effort to get career firefighters into the door.

    Again, I have no use for an organization that attempts to undercut another fire service organization in that way.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-13-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    What the HELL are you doing introducing logic into a discussion?
    Someone has to counter the idiocy being posted here....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    1) If the state is truly broke jusitify the $140 million in tax breaks to PRIVATE businesses, industry, and corporations.
    Because tax breaks to small business is what it takes to bring business into the state. Just take a look at what Doyle did with the film business. By his rescinding of the tax breaks for film, he got at least a total of five movies to leave the state. Miller Brewing's headquarters is now in Chicago because the state of Wisconsin refused to offer tax incentives to them.
    It's called a long term goal, in my honest opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    2) Why reject the $137 million in concessions the State Employees offered WILLINGLY?
    He didn't. He didn't have to deal. It's along the lines from Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    3) Why, if collective bargaining was about saving money, remove ALL the fiscal elements of his budget bill so he could have the collective bargaining element rammed through?
    They were removed because 14 senators refused to do their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    4) Why deny the Democratic Assembly members the chance to debate the budget bill before ramming the bill through?
    Who was denied what? Three plus weeks in Illinois; close to thirty plus hours of actual debate on the floor is not allowing their voice to be heard? I guess death threats and threats of firefighters striking is called "debate"?

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    5) Why is walker either so ignorant, uninformed or just bald faced LYING, about the sitting legislators and himself being affected by the increase in helath care and pension costs? It is against the law in Wisconsin to change a sitting legislators compensation package up or down.


    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    6) How can you support a man who will cut $900 from education and $500 from health care for the poorest citizens, children, and the elderly.
    Long term health of the state finances could be one reason. Maybe people felt that Barrett would have bankrupted the state in the long run. I don't know. Your comments tho, are awfully close to the talking points you accuse others of using from Mark Belling and Vick McKenna. BTW; read the bill yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    7) Why are you so uninformed about why the pension isn't as solvent as it once was? Tommy Thompson began the economic decline in Wisconsin. he STOLE from the pension fund, borrowed to fund operating costs, and spent money frivolously on things like airplanes.
    I don't know about the state's pension; we caught Norquist stealing from ours years ago and spent years trying to stop him. From what I understand tho, the state is in better shape than ours is. That is over 100% funded, which is a very good thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    9) It makes me sick to listen to bitter, angry, uninformed, led around by the ring in their nose right wingers whine because their jobs and life suck.
    I'm not bitter. I'm also not led around by my nose. Don't be hat'n!! Don't walk out on strike, either!

    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    10) Please tell us what YOU do for a living.
    Union firefighter.


    Look, I'm not overly thrilled with what is going on. I don't think it is that bad, tho, honestly. I could be wrong. I do know this state has been going in the wrong direction for years, financially. I respect you and your opinion and value it, believe me, I do.
    Just don't buy into the bullsh*t. Don't walk out on strike, as Joe Conway advocates; anyone who walks is wrong.
    Last edited by Jasper 45; 03-13-2011 at 09:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's great and that is your right.

    I have no use for unions in general and specifically the IAFF.

    I have seen what some of the actions of the IAFF have done to manpower levels at VFDs firsthand as we lost 2 members, and another neighboring department lost another 2 members directly because of language inserted into a career's contract directly at the request of the (IAFF) union local.

    I have also seen union member's living in our district bring up untrue information with the neighboring local's support to the town council regarding my VFDs response times and manpower levels in an effort to get career firefighters into the door.

    Again, I have no use for an organization that attempts to undercut another fire service in that way.
    Oh..like you who states that volunteers can do the job for free, so the community can lay off the career guys? You are an (expletive) hypocrite.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Oh..like you who states that volunteers can do the job for free, so the community can lay off the career guys? You are an (expletive) hypocrite.
    If the community is getting effective fire protection with volunteers, there should be no need to bring in career firefighters.

    And yes, if a community is unable to afford their current career staffing, or as a community, they decide that they would like to shift thier funding away from the fire department to another area, and they can get effective fire protection with volunteers, yes, I have no issue with career members being replaced by volunteer staffing.

    There is no "right" to a career position. You are hired at the will of the residents, and if they can no longer afford you or decide that they want to go the way of volunteers, it is their choice.

    Bottom line is the union has no right to insert language into a contrast prohibiting members from volunteering in their free time, with the clear intent of weakening volunteer coverage.

    They also have no right to insert their noses into a community where there are no career members in an effort to "convince" the community that they need career members, especially if they are using false data.

    Bottom line, the IAFF is interested in jobs, and honestly not fire protection outside of the urban areas, unless of course it's unionized career personnel. After all they are a union, and jobs means dues. If they were interested in fire protection, the anti-volunteer stance they had for many years wouldn't had been there. Maybe if the IAFF would just come out and say that I could live with the organization.

    This debate isn't about the IAFF, but the powers unions have in general in today's government.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 03-13-2011 at 09:24 PM.
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    Your same old tired bovine scat...

    Most of the things that all firefighters benefit from have been from initiatives from the IAFF.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasper 45 View Post
    Because tax breaks to small business is what it takes to bring business into the state. Just take a look at what Doyle did with the film business. By his rescinding of the tax breaks for film, he got at least a total of five movies to leave the state. Miller Brewing's headquarters is now in Chicago because the state of Wisconsin refused to offer tax incentives to them.
    It's called a long term goal, in my honest opinion.

    Sorry, NO. You don't take money out of the pocket of the middle class to put it in the pocket of millionares. Who don't EVER pay their fair share of taxes anyways.

    He didn't. He didn't have to deal. It's along the lines from Obama.

    So two wrongs make a right in your book?


    They were removed because 14 senators refused to do their job.

    Um, I said ASSEMBLY. Not the senate.

    Who was denied what? Three plus weeks in Illinois; close to thirty plus hours of actual debate on the floor is not allowing their voice to be heard? I guess death threats and threats of firefighters striking is called "debate"?

    This is simply not even close to what I was talking about. I was talking about the assembly where the republican legislators voted while democrats were still calling for the right to speak.

    I am not responsible for what people do and frankly, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the deaths threats are either fabricated or being done by republican supporters. They have been trying to portray the demonstrators as violent from day one. Including trying to make people belive footage with palm trees was at the Capitol in Madison.


    Long term health of the state finances could be one reason. Maybe people felt that Barrett would have bankrupted the state in the long run. I don't know. Your comments tho, are awfully close to the talking points you accuse others of using from Mark Belling and Vick McKenna. BTW; read the bill yet?

    Nope, my opinions are mine. I don't need Mark Belling to tell me what to think.

    I don't know about the state's pension; we caught Norquist stealing from ours years ago and spent years trying to stop him. From what I understand tho, the state is in better shape than ours is. That is over 100% funded, which is a very good thing.

    It is still in very good shape. Probably not for much longer. Let's see how much walker steals from it.

    I'm not bitter. I'm also not led around by my nose. Don't be hat'n!! Don't walk out on strike, either!

    I won't go on strike because it is morally wrong.


    Look, I'm not overly thrilled with what is going on. I don't think it is that bad, tho, honestly. I could be wrong. I do know this state has been going in the wrong direction for years, financially. I respect you and your opinion and value it, believe me, I do.

    I guess you guys wouldn't think it is too bad. If you want details PM me.

    Just don't buy into the bullsh*t. Don't walk out on strike, as Joe Conway advocates; anyone who walks is wrong.

    Joe Conway is not my local president. he does not control MY actions.
    It's all bought and paid for...on so many levels and the stench is awful.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Okay.. so you work in the private sector as an auto mechanic.

    The average cost of labor per hour for an automotive technician in my area is $90 an hour.

    For your employer to keep you happy and productive, if you ask for a pay increase.. he will just raise the labor rate to compensate and what he charges for parts, and also passes on a recycling fee for the waste oil. coolant and such.

    Your clients expect the same services, whether it be something as simple as an oil change or complete motor rebuild.

    So.. how is that any different from municipalities? Even if they downsize personnel, the citizens expect the same level or service... or is that "unsustainable", too?
    You obviously don't undersand the private sector and market forces.

    If I ask for a pay increase my employer will likely do several things. Some of which are..
    A; review my work performance
    B; compare my current wage with others in the area
    D; determine if he can pay me more while still maintaining a profit
    E; assess the risk of me leaving for better pay elsewhere

    He cannot "just raise the labor rate" as you claim, and this is a key point. Unlike government, business must remain competitive in the marketplace. Raise the labor rate and you lose customers.

    I do not disagree that citizens have gotten spoiled on government services. We all need to make due with less.
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Look, YOU need to get far more informed before you go off on rants.

    1) If the state is truly broke jusitify the $140 million in tax breaks to PRIVATE businesses, industry, and corporations.

    2) Why reject the $137 million in concessions the State Employees offered WILLINGLY?

    3) Why, if collective bargaining was about saving money, remove ALL the fiscal elements of his budget bill so he could have the collective bargaining element rammed through?

    4) Why deny the Democratic Assembly members the chance to debate the budget bill before ramming the bill through?

    5) Why is walker either so ignorant, uninformed or just bald faced LYING, about the sitting legislators and himself being affected by the increase in helath care and pension costs? It is against the law in Wisconsin to change a sitting legislators compensation package up or down.

    6) How can you support a man who will cut $900 from education and $500 from health care for the poorest citizens, children, and the elderly.

    7) Why are you so uninformed about why the pension isn't as solvent as it once was? Tommy Thompson began the economic decline in Wisconsin. he STOLE from the pension fund, borrowed to fund operating costs, and spent money frivolously on things like airplanes.

    8) Do some more research and stop listening to talk radio...despite what Mark Belling says, on average public employees in Wisconsin earn 8% less than their private sector counterparts.

    9) It makes me sick to listen to bitter, angry, uninformed, led around by the ring in their nose right wingers whine because their jobs and life suck.

    10) Please tell us what YOU do for a livng. I am on the edge of my seat in anticipation.

    Have a nice day.
    1) Wisconsin didn't give out $140 million to private businesses. Wisconsin lowered its corporate tax rate. Corporation only have one place to raise money to pay taxes imposed on them. They raise their sales price in the amount of the tax plus an additional amount to cover their cost of collecting and remitting the tax. Lower corporate taxes and people pay less for their goods and services, plus their products are more competitive in the market place.

    Illinois, raised their corporate and personal tax rates last year. (probably a former union members idea) While several surrounding states including Wisconsin lower there's and are attracting businesses form Illinois. Lower taxes always improves business prospects.

    2) $137 million in concessions the State Employees offered? lol? You must be referring to the $137 million budget shortfall Wisconsin is facing this year. Did you know that, 78.3% of people makeup facts when they're either ill informed or just plain don't know?

    3) Collective bargaining isn't about saving money, it's about getting the most for one side. And why remove all the fiscal elements to hold a vote? Because to vote on that particular item, the democrates that fled to Illinois (and that I'm sure you hold in high regard) didn't need to be present.

    4) You mean like the Democrates let the Republicans do for Obama Care? Hell the Republicans didn't even get a chance to see it until hours before the vote.

    5) Huh?

    6)I'm all for cutting education. Money doesn't fix our broken education system in the US. We've been spending money on education for years, but according to the U.S. Department of Education’s 2007 “Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study” (TIMSS), the U.S. trails behind the following countries in average scores:

    Singapore
    Taiwan
    Japan
    Republic of Korea
    Hong Kong
    Sweden
    Netherlands
    Hungary
    Slovenia

    But they don't have poor little childern in those countries do they.

    7) Party's over... It's broke, and the time to fix it has arrived.

    8) Do some more research yourself, and you'll find that state and local government workers make about the same salary as those in the private sector but get more generous benefits. Remember is all about the facts, facts, facts... And comparing apples to apples. Don't be one of the 78.3% I mentioned above.

    9) It makes me sick to hear people disseminate information about things that they know a little about, but not enough to hold an intelligent conversation about.

    10) I can see the pitchforks coming out now.

    and a tip of the hat, Sir

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    You obviously don't undersand the private sector and market forces.

    If I ask for a pay increase my employer will likely do several things. Some of which are..
    A; review my work performance
    B; compare my current wage with others in the area
    D; determine if he can pay me more while still maintaining a profit
    E; assess the risk of me leaving for better pay elsewhere

    He cannot "just raise the labor rate" as you claim, and this is a key point. Unlike government, business must remain competitive in the marketplace. Raise the labor rate and you lose customers.

    I do not disagree that citizens have gotten spoiled on government services. We all need to make due with less.
    Or.. your employer can tuck it to you by laying you off and hiring someone at a lower pay rate. I worked in the private sector... been there, had that done to me, and in the guise of saving money it has actually cost the company customers and good will... something that isn't easily recaptured.

    I had an employer back in my college days who used to use the "union" word whenever they raised the prices of their services.. funny thing was, there was no union....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post

    And yes, my hatred for the IAFF does go beyond that.
    I'm sure they're all broken up over it too.
    IAFF

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Or.. your employer can tuck it to you by laying you off and hiring someone at a lower pay rate. I worked in the private sector... been there, had that done to me, and in the guise of saving money it has actually cost the company customers and good will... something that isn't easily recaptured.
    He most certainly could. Although doing that would tarnish his reputation as an employer and make his business less attractive to skilled potential employees.
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFPD34 View Post
    1) Wisconsin didn't give out $140 million to private businesses. Wisconsin lowered its corporate tax rate. Corporation only have one place to raise money to pay taxes imposed on them. They raise their sales price in the amount of the tax plus an additional amount to cover their cost of collecting and remitting the tax. Lower corporate taxes and people pay less for their goods and services, plus their products are more competitive in the market place.

    Illinois, raised their corporate and personal tax rates last year. (probably a former union members idea) While several surrounding states including Wisconsin lower there's and are attracting businesses form Illinois. Lower taxes always improves business prospects.

    2) $137 million in concessions the State Employees offered? lol? You must be referring to the $137 million budget shortfall Wisconsin is facing this year. Did you know that, 78.3% of people makeup facts when they're either ill informed or just plain don't know?

    3) Collective bargaining isn't about saving money, it's about getting the most for one side. And why remove all the fiscal elements to hold a vote? Because to vote on that particular item, the democrates that fled to Illinois (and that I'm sure you hold in high regard) didn't need to be present.

    4) You mean like the Democrates let the Republicans do for Obama Care? Hell the Republicans didn't even get a chance to see it until hours before the vote.

    5) Huh?

    6)I'm all for cutting education. Money doesn't fix our broken education system in the US. We've been spending money on education for years, but according to the U.S. Department of Education’s 2007 “Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study” (TIMSS), the U.S. trails behind the following countries in average scores:

    Singapore
    Taiwan
    Japan
    Republic of Korea
    Hong Kong
    Sweden
    Netherlands
    Hungary
    Slovenia

    But they don't have poor little childern in those countries do they.

    7) Party's over... It's broke, and the time to fix it has arrived.

    8) Do some more research yourself, and you'll find that state and local government workers make about the same salary as those in the private sector but get more generous benefits. Remember is all about the facts, facts, facts... And comparing apples to apples. Don't be one of the 78.3% I mentioned above.

    9) It makes me sick to hear people disseminate information about things that they know a little about, but not enough to hold an intelligent conversation about.

    10) I can see the pitchforks coming out now.

    and a tip of the hat, Sir
    Hey AFPD are you a Wisconsin resident?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    Additionally, public employees are forced to pay union dues.
    Actually, nobody is "forced to pay union dues". Paying dues is a well known part of working in a unionized workforce. So, if you don't want to pay union dues, then you don't apply for union work. It really is that simple.

    These dues are then funneled into democrat campaign contributions to promote policies that increase the number of public employees. The greater number of public employees increases the dues that the union collects.
    Up until the "Citizens United" ruling from the Supreme Court (a ruling that many in organized labor was not in favor of), it was illegal to use union dues for political purposes. Any political spending came from voluntary contributions to political action committees.

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    AFPD34...

    You are from Illinois aren't you? Golly things are going so swimmingly there economically and budget wise I guess you have time to spare to tell Wisconsin how to fix their problems...Although, then again it looks like our Governor could slip right into Springfield with the way he deals under the table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    As long as the organization or municipality (city,county, state), or in this case the airport, can absorb the additional costs and not go into the red then good for them. For the most part this hasn't been the case elsewhere.

    Additionally, public employees are forced to pay union dues. These dues are then funneled into democrat campaign contributions to promote policies that increase the number of public employees. The greater number of public employees increases the dues that the union collects.

    A sample of the news that "doesn't get to these parts".....

    From WSJ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...761790288.html

    Mr. Scanlon, who has run elections for AFSCME for nearly 15 years, acknowledged the connection between the number of government jobs and the union's political clout. "The more members coming in, the more dues coming in, the more money we have for politics," Mr. Scanlon said. AFSCME's membership has grown 25% in the past decade.

    AFSCME began the year with a $70 million budget to campaign for Democrats who supported its priorities in Washington. It wasn't planning to help those who opposed issues including health-care legislation and extending unemployment benefits.




    Sounds like a scam to me.

    Let me address the issue of dues. There is something called "Fair Share" where the union/mgmt contract is the documentation spelling out how operations are done. For all the union issues, there are many mgmt rights as well and that is spelled out in the contract. For instance OT call in procedures is addressed so that it is fair and not just those closer to mgmt get called in etc.

    Since the contract is the recognized documentation and it was the union efforst that sat down with mgmt to agree on it, all people fall under it. So the issue of Fair Share is that since everyone benefits by such language they pay their dues, regardless if they want to be union or not. Now in a right to work state, it is the choice of the individual to choose to be a part of the union of not, however, if there is a recognized contract between union and mgmt, then one not paying dues can be equivucated to freeloading. They still enjoy the fruits of the contract without paying their share. In a sense it would be like a tax-exempt entity in the community. They still enjoy the same services as other taxpayers, but don't pay their share.



    As for dues going to political issues, this is completely wrong and the information being submitted about this is wrong. It is illegal for a union to use members dues for political purposes. Dues pay for union business and representation. Typically the union officers are paid a stipend for their duties they do. Funds also go towards campaigns like TV radio ads to fight against staffing reductions or brownouts, as well as funds to be able to fight legal battles if they arise. The dues can not go towards any political campaign.

    For political campaigns a union can establish a Political Action Conduit (PAC) and/or political action committees. It is up to the member to put forth their own money to such funds. When the PAC wants to use the funds, the must ask permission from the contributor if they can use the funds. If the member does not agree with the views of the candidate and refuses to allow the PAC to use their money, the PAC can not use it. In fact anyone, even in a PAC, has to be documented by dollar contribution and there are limits as well.

    So really the information that union dues pay for political campaigns is absolutely and entirely wrong.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

  19. #44
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    After reading all this I'm glad GA is a non-union state.
    Bring enough hose.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFPD34 View Post
    Now, in the private sector, when the money runs out, jobs go away. Businesses go away. When the money is running out, all but the essentials are dropped. Free office lunches, businesses trips, bonuses, new office furniture, upgraded computers, software, health insurance, contributions to retirement accounts: all that gone. To continue to pay for anything beyond keeping the lights on and salaries is plain stupid if the goal is to keep the business alive. See, in the private sector the purpose of a business is not to give you health care.

    In the private sector the purpose of a business is not to give you a retirement or sick days or trips to the vet. In the public sector, that's exactly what jobs are seen as. It makes me sick to watch angry, militant, ungrateful state employees WITH JOBS complain that they can't receive extravagant benefit and pension contributions from people who have no money because they are out of work. No one's asked them to dip into their savings. That's what people in the private sector are having to do. When the money runs out, there should be zero contributions to pensions and health insurance -- and if that doesn't cover the tab, then the job is cut. BUT not before

    But wait... we just want more don't we?
    It's also not the "purpose" of the public sector to give healthcare, retirement, sick days, etc. The "purpose" of public sector jobs is to provide services to the community/state/nation. This typically requires hiring people to provide those services. Employees typically expect to be compensated for their labor. Those items listed fall into the compensation category.

    You are correct that in the private sector, when money runs thin, jobs are cut and businesses close. Unfortunately or fortunately, in the public sector closing down often isn't an option. If GM shut down completely, I could still go to Ford, Toyota, Dodge, Kia, etc to buy a vehicle. What's the option for stuff like police, fire, street plowing, garbage collection, building inspection, etc. if the government just "shut down"?

    Your wrong to assert that public sector workers aren't suffering and having to "dip into their savings".

    The problem goes way beyond anything public sector unions have a hand in.

  21. #46
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    Some of you people really make it hard for certain union members to consider volllys "brothers"...f*cking clueless.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Hey AFPD are you a Wisconsin resident?
    Sick 'em FyredUp!!!!

    Sick balls!!
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
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    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Sick 'em FyredUp!!!!

    Sick balls!!
    Nothing to sick, he ran home when I asked him if he was from Wisconsin.

    All, we need is an arm chair quarterback from a bankrupt, corrupt state to tell us how to solve our problems. Yeah, no thanks.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-14-2011 at 12:57 AM.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Nothing to sick, he ran home when I asked him if he was from Wisconsin.

    All, we need is an arm chair quarterback from a bankrupt, corrupt state to tell us how to solve our problems. Yeah, no thanks.
    I can smell what you're stepping in and I totally agree!
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

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    Crabby, Gonzo, FyredUp,

    You guys are making great points on here.

    Remember 10 years ago, when everyone in the private sector was riding the market, making their 10% bonuses, watching their 401k go through the roof, arguing about which BMW to buy? Remember 10 years ago, when we were happy with our 3% raise and an extra 1/2 shift of vacation?

    There's a sickness in this country...ENVY. When they had more than us, they ignored us. They consider us "Street People" (as cops/firemen were called at a local village council meeting). Our union forefathers (one of whom was my grandfather) fought and bled to get the rights that we enjoy today.

    Mordecai145
    Union Firefighter

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