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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    Additionally, public employees are forced to pay union dues.
    Actually, nobody is "forced to pay union dues". Paying dues is a well known part of working in a unionized workforce. So, if you don't want to pay union dues, then you don't apply for union work. It really is that simple.

    These dues are then funneled into democrat campaign contributions to promote policies that increase the number of public employees. The greater number of public employees increases the dues that the union collects.
    Up until the "Citizens United" ruling from the Supreme Court (a ruling that many in organized labor was not in favor of), it was illegal to use union dues for political purposes. Any political spending came from voluntary contributions to political action committees.


  2. #42
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    AFPD34...

    You are from Illinois aren't you? Golly things are going so swimmingly there economically and budget wise I guess you have time to spare to tell Wisconsin how to fix their problems...Although, then again it looks like our Governor could slip right into Springfield with the way he deals under the table.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    As long as the organization or municipality (city,county, state), or in this case the airport, can absorb the additional costs and not go into the red then good for them. For the most part this hasn't been the case elsewhere.

    Additionally, public employees are forced to pay union dues. These dues are then funneled into democrat campaign contributions to promote policies that increase the number of public employees. The greater number of public employees increases the dues that the union collects.

    A sample of the news that "doesn't get to these parts".....

    From WSJ http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...761790288.html

    Mr. Scanlon, who has run elections for AFSCME for nearly 15 years, acknowledged the connection between the number of government jobs and the union's political clout. "The more members coming in, the more dues coming in, the more money we have for politics," Mr. Scanlon said. AFSCME's membership has grown 25% in the past decade.

    AFSCME began the year with a $70 million budget to campaign for Democrats who supported its priorities in Washington. It wasn't planning to help those who opposed issues including health-care legislation and extending unemployment benefits.




    Sounds like a scam to me.

    Let me address the issue of dues. There is something called "Fair Share" where the union/mgmt contract is the documentation spelling out how operations are done. For all the union issues, there are many mgmt rights as well and that is spelled out in the contract. For instance OT call in procedures is addressed so that it is fair and not just those closer to mgmt get called in etc.

    Since the contract is the recognized documentation and it was the union efforst that sat down with mgmt to agree on it, all people fall under it. So the issue of Fair Share is that since everyone benefits by such language they pay their dues, regardless if they want to be union or not. Now in a right to work state, it is the choice of the individual to choose to be a part of the union of not, however, if there is a recognized contract between union and mgmt, then one not paying dues can be equivucated to freeloading. They still enjoy the fruits of the contract without paying their share. In a sense it would be like a tax-exempt entity in the community. They still enjoy the same services as other taxpayers, but don't pay their share.



    As for dues going to political issues, this is completely wrong and the information being submitted about this is wrong. It is illegal for a union to use members dues for political purposes. Dues pay for union business and representation. Typically the union officers are paid a stipend for their duties they do. Funds also go towards campaigns like TV radio ads to fight against staffing reductions or brownouts, as well as funds to be able to fight legal battles if they arise. The dues can not go towards any political campaign.

    For political campaigns a union can establish a Political Action Conduit (PAC) and/or political action committees. It is up to the member to put forth their own money to such funds. When the PAC wants to use the funds, the must ask permission from the contributor if they can use the funds. If the member does not agree with the views of the candidate and refuses to allow the PAC to use their money, the PAC can not use it. In fact anyone, even in a PAC, has to be documented by dollar contribution and there are limits as well.

    So really the information that union dues pay for political campaigns is absolutely and entirely wrong.
    The thoughts and opinions posted here are mine and mine alone and do not reflect the thoughts and or views of city or dept affiliation.

  4. #44
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
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    After reading all this I'm glad GA is a non-union state.
    Bring enough hose.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFPD34 View Post
    Now, in the private sector, when the money runs out, jobs go away. Businesses go away. When the money is running out, all but the essentials are dropped. Free office lunches, businesses trips, bonuses, new office furniture, upgraded computers, software, health insurance, contributions to retirement accounts: all that gone. To continue to pay for anything beyond keeping the lights on and salaries is plain stupid if the goal is to keep the business alive. See, in the private sector the purpose of a business is not to give you health care.

    In the private sector the purpose of a business is not to give you a retirement or sick days or trips to the vet. In the public sector, that's exactly what jobs are seen as. It makes me sick to watch angry, militant, ungrateful state employees WITH JOBS complain that they can't receive extravagant benefit and pension contributions from people who have no money because they are out of work. No one's asked them to dip into their savings. That's what people in the private sector are having to do. When the money runs out, there should be zero contributions to pensions and health insurance -- and if that doesn't cover the tab, then the job is cut. BUT not before

    But wait... we just want more don't we?
    It's also not the "purpose" of the public sector to give healthcare, retirement, sick days, etc. The "purpose" of public sector jobs is to provide services to the community/state/nation. This typically requires hiring people to provide those services. Employees typically expect to be compensated for their labor. Those items listed fall into the compensation category.

    You are correct that in the private sector, when money runs thin, jobs are cut and businesses close. Unfortunately or fortunately, in the public sector closing down often isn't an option. If GM shut down completely, I could still go to Ford, Toyota, Dodge, Kia, etc to buy a vehicle. What's the option for stuff like police, fire, street plowing, garbage collection, building inspection, etc. if the government just "shut down"?

    Your wrong to assert that public sector workers aren't suffering and having to "dip into their savings".

    The problem goes way beyond anything public sector unions have a hand in.

  6. #46
    Forum Member nyckftbl's Avatar
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    Some of you people really make it hard for certain union members to consider volllys "brothers"...f*cking clueless.
    Proud East Coast Traditionalist.

  7. #47
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Hey AFPD are you a Wisconsin resident?
    Sick 'em FyredUp!!!!

    Sick balls!!
    Jason Knecht
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  8. #48
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dickey View Post
    Sick 'em FyredUp!!!!

    Sick balls!!
    Nothing to sick, he ran home when I asked him if he was from Wisconsin.

    All, we need is an arm chair quarterback from a bankrupt, corrupt state to tell us how to solve our problems. Yeah, no thanks.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 03-14-2011 at 12:57 AM.
    “The person who risks nothing, does nothing, has nothing, is nothing, and becomes nothing. He may avoid suffering and sorrow, but he simply cannot learn and feel and change and grow and love and live.” Leo F. Buscaglia

    This place gets weirder and weirder every day...

  9. #49
    MembersZone Subscriber Dickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    Nothing to sick, he ran home when I asked him if he was from Wisconsin.

    All, we need is an arm chair quarterback from a bankrupt, corrupt state to tell us how to solve our problems. Yeah, no thanks.
    I can smell what you're stepping in and I totally agree!
    Jason Knecht
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    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

  10. #50
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    Crabby, Gonzo, FyredUp,

    You guys are making great points on here.

    Remember 10 years ago, when everyone in the private sector was riding the market, making their 10% bonuses, watching their 401k go through the roof, arguing about which BMW to buy? Remember 10 years ago, when we were happy with our 3% raise and an extra 1/2 shift of vacation?

    There's a sickness in this country...ENVY. When they had more than us, they ignored us. They consider us "Street People" (as cops/firemen were called at a local village council meeting). Our union forefathers (one of whom was my grandfather) fought and bled to get the rights that we enjoy today.

    Mordecai145
    Union Firefighter

  11. #51
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jccrabby3084 View Post
    So really the information that union dues pay for political campaigns is absolutely and entirely wrong.
    Again, thanks jc for a thoughtful and well articulated post. We all, myself included, would do well to follow your example.

    Correct me if I'm wrong...

    The more public employees there are the more union dues that are collected resulting in a more wealthy and powerful organization. Therefore it is in the best interest of the union, in order to maintain it's size, to promote the growth of government. Additionally the majority of public employees tend to vote democrat as democrat candidates are less likely to cut government programs.

    Many politicians will cater to public employee union desires to appease them and garner the coveted votes of their large memberships. Unfortunately even if it means further bankrupting their community.

    So... whether or not union dues pay for political campaigns (and I've heard it both ways) the unions have a large influence in government and not always in a good way.
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

  12. #52
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordecai145 View Post
    Crabby, Gonzo, FyredUp,

    You guys are making great points on here.

    Remember 10 years ago, when everyone in the private sector was riding the market, making their 10% bonuses, watching their 401k go through the roof, arguing about which BMW to buy? Remember 10 years ago, when we were happy with our 3% raise and an extra 1/2 shift of vacation?

    There's a sickness in this country...ENVY. When they had more than us, they ignored us. They consider us "Street People" (as cops/firemen were called at a local village council meeting). Our union forefathers (one of whom was my grandfather) fought and bled to get the rights that we enjoy today.

    Mordecai145
    Union Firefighter
    Following your logic then government was doing well 10 years ago also.

    After all there's a lot of tax on a new BMW and on the money made to purchase it.

    Now we're all in the same boat. While I agree, envy is a disease, that isn't what this is about.

    When you're grandfather (RIP) was a union worker governments didn't run huge deficits like they do now. That was a different time.
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

  13. #53
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Some of you people really make it hard for certain union members to consider volllys "brothers"...f*cking clueless.
    Co-signed !!!
    IAFF

  14. #54
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Some of you people really make it hard for certain union members to consider volllys "brothers"...f*cking clueless.
    My brother and I fought constantly. What's your point??
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

  15. #55
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    From the NYT... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/op...ef=davidbrooks


    ".......That’s because public sector unions and private sector unions are very different creatures. Private sector unions push against the interests of shareholders and management; public sector unions push against the interests of taxpayers. Private sector union members know that their employers could go out of business, so they have an incentive to mitigate their demands; public sector union members work for state monopolies and have no such interest.

    Private sector unions confront managers who have an incentive to push back against their demands. Public sector unions face managers who have an incentive to give into them for the sake of their own survival. Most important, public sector unions help choose those they negotiate with. Through gigantic campaign contributions and overall clout, they have enormous influence over who gets elected to bargain with them, especially in state and local races.

    As a result of these imbalanced incentive structures, states with public sector unions tend to run into fiscal crises. They tend to have workplaces where personnel decisions are made on the basis of seniority, not merit. There is little relationship between excellence and reward, which leads to resentment among taxpayers who don’t have that luxury..
    .."
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

  16. #56
    Forum Member snowball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blulakr View Post
    My brother and I fought constantly. What's your point??
    The point is that some of you look like a bunch of vultures circling a perfectly healthy dude who's only real problem is a bad case of the crabs, meaning a couple of rogue governors and Fox News.
    IAFF

  17. #57
    Forum Member Blulakr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowball View Post
    The point is that some of you look like a bunch of vultures circling a perfectly healthy dude who's only real problem is a bad case of the crabs, meaning a couple of rogue governors and Fox News.


    The train of change is a comin', like it or not.

    I'm just makin sure I have a ticket and a window seat.
    My wise and profound comments and opinions are mine alone and are in no way associated with any other individual or group.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    Some of you people really make it hard for certain union members to consider volllys "brothers"...f*cking clueless.
    You're right - in some respects we are - for lack of information. Witness the three or four threads here now on unions.

    Remember, too, that volunteers are just that - volunteers. We have "day" jobs and in that respect are no different that the millions of non-union, non-volunteer firefighter folks who don't know what's going on either.

    The unions are, unfortunately, dealing with the legacy stemming from the 50's and 60's, when the US had virtually no foreign competition in most markets. The industrial unions could demand pretty much what they wanted and get it, because, let's face it, who else was anyone going to buy from?
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  19. #59
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    Remember, too, that volunteers are just that - volunteers. We have "day" jobs and in that respect are no different that the millions of non-union, non-volunteer firefighter folks who don't know what's going on either.
    Ironically.. some of those day jobs are unionized...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    After reading all this I'm glad GA is a non-union state.
    Same with LA.

    Of course, we have civil service which basically screws the residents just as badly.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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