1. #26
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Could you please detail for us your crystal ball? Your argument is a hypothetical.
    Its called history. No "No-Fly Zone" operation has ever ended without ground operations. Even with our bombings, the rebels continue to lose ground to the Libyan government. At some point, we will either have to give up and leave, or put troops on the ground to assist the rebels.

    You mentioned conservatives supporting bombing Libya 30 years ago, and not wanting to do it now makes them hypocrits. Ok fine, valid point. But what does that make the Democrats who openly criticized the last administration on Iraq and Afganistan, including sacred Obama, and promised to bring our troops home if elected in 2008. Three years later, they get us involved in a 3rd "non-war". Bush had 17 UN resolutions and the support of the majority of Congress to enter Iraq. Obama had 1 UN resolution, and never even consulted Congress. I would say "pot meet kettle" at this point, but I wouldn't want to appear to be making a black joke and be called a racist.

    My belief is it should take a declaration of war by Congress to allow our military to bomb and attack another country, something that hasn't been done since World War II. Every conflict we have been involved in since then has simply been a half assed skirmish that our military has had to fight with one hand tied behind their back. It has become an easy out for our politicians, to start wars, without being forced to call it one.

  2. #27
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    I don't know what you edited from you to me, originally. Doesn't matter. But know that I also consider you a Brother, and a friend.

    FM1
    Just a stupidly long drawn out arguement. It wasn't worth it brother. And I take your point on the MEU's size.

    Group hug?!?

  3. #28
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We couldn't afford Iraq. That didn't stop conservatives from demanding unconditional support of the president.
    Oh really, only conservatives? I do remember one high profile demo-rat that went right along with them by the name of Hillary Rodham Clinton, among so many more.

    Still not the president's fault.
    Never said it was, how about we stick to the facts as they are. I never said it was Obama's fault that we have no money to get parts. Was I stated was that he shouldn't be getting us involved in yet another middle eastern conflict when we're already broke.

    I never attacked the military folks. Though if you read some of the comments on the link I posted you'll see that didn't stop anyone from calling me every unpatriotic name around.
    Never said you did either. In fact, I never once attacked you for your beliefs about Iraq, I never even posted on that thread. I'm sorry that paople ganged up on you on that thread and you were gang raped and you're still butt hurt from it. Get over it, that thread has nothing to do with the discussion here so stop bringing it up and bitching about it.

    Or it could turn out for the better.
    **** in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up the fastest. We see what Obama's hope has gotten us so far.

    Via heavily edited video. Also, do you believe individuals aren't allowed to have personal opinions? Can you point to a story where this individual injected his personal bias?
    So, I assume you have PROOF that it was heavily edited? I believe everyone has a right to a personal opinion. But when that personal opinion crosses the line to discrimination, that makes it a problem. Let someone make a comment like that about a minority and see what happens. And yeah, the story was on every news network there was, both liberal and conservative.

    I asked that question about Hussein.
    Ok, I see your point now. If Iraq was wrong we'll go somewhere else we don't belong to make another wrong and it'll make everything right. Because we all kow two wrongs make a right don't they.

    My kids are grown. What's your point?
    If you are so dense that you didn't get the point then I refuse to explain it to you as if you were a child. Figure out like a big boy.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 04-01-2011 at 10:28 AM.

  4. #29
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Oh really, only conservatives? I do remember one high profile demo-rat that went right along with them by the name of Hillary Rodham Clinton, among so many more.
    As a member of the minority party.
    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    **** in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up the fastest. We see what Obama's hope has gotten us so far.
    I remember hearing conservatives say the same thing during the Balkans Campaign in the 90's. Refresh our memories of the number of casualties during the military operation.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    So, I assume you have PROOF that it was heavily edited? I believe everyone has a right to a personal opinion. But when that personal opinion crosses the line to discrimination, that makes it a problem. Let someone make a comment like that about a minority and see what happens. And yeah, the story was on every news network there was, both liberal and conservative.
    Here's one of many articles. But for more information click here. You finish your article with a hypothetical.


    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Ok, I see your point now. If Iraq was wrong we'll go somewhere else we don't belong to make another wrong and it'll make everything right. Because we all kow two wrongs make a right don't they.
    Said no such thing. Stop dissolving into fantasy.


    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    If you are so dense that you didn't get the point then I refuse to explain it to you as if you were a child. Figure out like a big boy.
    Wow. Finishes with a pejorative. You really showed me.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #30
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As a member of the minority party.
    But agreed none the less.

    I remember hearing conservatives say the same thing during the Balkans Campaign in the 90's. Refresh our memories of the number of casualties during the military operation.
    They said something about Obama's campaign of hope? Now we have fortune tellers in the government, damn.

    Here's one of many articles. But for more information click here. You finish your article with a hypothetical.
    Hypothetical nothing, it's a fact. Hapens all the time, I would quote you articles, but you're a big boy, if ts such a big deal, you look it up.

    Said no such thing. Stop dissolving into fantasy.
    See, ****es you off when someone turns your words around, but you have no problem doing that to others do you.


    Wow. Finishes with a pejorative. You really showed me.
    No, I told you. Had I shown you I would have printed out a pretty little picture for you since you obviously have problems with reading. Nothing pejorative at all, merely stating a fact that you couldn't figure out the analogy on your own. But if you insist, cry some more, it'll get me used to that little baby that'll be here in September. See, now that was pejorative.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 04-01-2011 at 01:58 PM.

  6. #31
    Forum Member
    scfire86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HB
    Posts
    10,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    No, I told you. Had I shown you I would have printed out a pretty little picture for you since you obviously have problems with reading. Nothing pejorative at all, merely stating a fact that you couldn't figure out the analogy on your own. But if you insist, cry some more, it'll get me used to that little baby that'll be here in September. See, now that was pejorative.
    Mere words can't describe how that makes me feel.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #32
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Memphis Tn,USA-now
    Posts
    5,436

    Default

    Isn't turnabout fair play?
    I thought the peace protesters would be going ballistic over this,and to some extent they are.They've been protesting providing air cover to people trying to overthow a dictator but I guess it's for the better.At least we don't have too many know nothing actors and actresses speaking their minds about subjects which they have little to no knowledge about.Shouldn't Sean Penn have been volunteering to serve as a human shield to prevent this use of air power?
    Yesterday,I heard that Eric Holder was moving ahead to try in military courts Kahleed Sheik Muhommad and others suspected of having taken part in the planning and execution of the Sept 11 attacks.
    I guess that it's okay when it's a liberal making these decisions because God knows that THEY know how to bring people to justice,right?God forbid that President Barack Hussein Obama should make an announcement that George Walker Bush was correct in wanting to have these terrorists tried in a military court where the security would be better.It just wouldn't do to say that he was right,would it?
    I wasn't aware that there was an outcry over President Reagan ordering the bombing of Libya back on April 13,1986.For the first few months of that year,my destroyer USS Mahan DDG 42 was sailing racetrack patterns around the 32 degrees,30 minutes North latitude line defying the territorial claim Muhmmar Khadaffi made that the Gulf of Sidra was internal waters.President Reagan wanted to show that it was international waters,just like the Gulf of Mexico,and thus open to all nations for navigation.We even got close enough to shore one night to see lights on the horizon and were told that they were lights of Benghazi.Never heard a threat warning light off once,either.
    When the bombs started falling,we had already been relieved by the next carrier battlegroup,headed for homeport and were three days out of Charleston when the news came over the radio.We'd been extended twice on that 6 month Med cruise and were well into the 8th month when we got word that yes,indeed we were really heading for home.
    No one gave a rat's *** about troop morale on extended tours,at least for the Navy.You were doing a job and they didn't want you leaving until it was done or you were relieved on station.
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    What's even funnier is how during the Bush Administration war critics were called unpatriotic or traitors. We were told that criticism of the president while there were troops on harms way was detrimental to troop morale, and would embolden our enemies. Here's (Aid and Comfort to the Enemy) almost 500 posts that prove it. I guess troop morale isn't an issue any longer.

    More funny is that during the 80's, conservatives were wanting Reagan to bomb Libya into the Stone Age. Now that Obama is actually attempting to overthrow Gaddafi there are some who believe this action is an impeachable offense.

    Yup, the laughs never stop.
    Last edited by doughesson; 04-07-2011 at 12:26 PM.

  8. #33
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Memphis Tn,USA-now
    Posts
    5,436

    Default

    Were our troops used in ground combat ops in Croatia,or Bosnia/Herzegovenia?
    No fly zones were implemented then and when our troops deployed there,it was as part of a UN peacekeeping force.Clinton didn't want the military to do what it does best:break things and kill people.He wanted them to be heavily armed cops,which is NOT what a combat unit is designed to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    Its called history. No "No-Fly Zone" operation has ever ended without ground operations. Even with our bombings, the rebels continue to lose ground to the Libyan government. At some point, we will either have to give up and leave, or put troops on the ground to assist the rebels.

    You mentioned conservatives supporting bombing Libya 30 years ago, and not wanting to do it now makes them hypocrits. Ok fine, valid point. But what does that make the Democrats who openly criticized the last administration on Iraq and Afganistan, including sacred Obama, and promised to bring our troops home if elected in 2008. Three years later, they get us involved in a 3rd "non-war". Bush had 17 UN resolutions and the support of the majority of Congress to enter Iraq. Obama had 1 UN resolution, and never even consulted Congress. I would say "pot meet kettle" at this point, but I wouldn't want to appear to be making a black joke and be called a racist.

    My belief is it should take a declaration of war by Congress to allow our military to bomb and attack another country, something that hasn't been done since World War II. Every conflict we have been involved in since then has simply been a half assed skirmish that our military has had to fight with one hand tied behind their back. It has become an easy out for our politicians, to start wars, without being forced to call it one.

  9. #34
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Were our troops used in ground combat ops in Croatia,or Bosnia/Herzegovenia?
    No fly zones were implemented then and when our troops deployed there,it was as part of a UN peacekeeping force.Clinton didn't want the military to do what it does best:break things and kill people.He wanted them to be heavily armed cops,which is NOT what a combat unit is designed to do.
    Call it what you will, but troops on the ground all the same.

  10. #35
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    477

    Default

    Funny how the argument against Iraq was that it was an illegal war against an oil-rich Muslim nation that was no threat to American national security or interests.

    I'm sorry, how is Libya different?

  11. #36
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    Funny how the argument against Iraq was that it was an illegal war against an oil-rich Muslim nation that was no threat to American national security or interests.

    I'm sorry, how is Libya different?
    Different because he was going to attack, kill and injure his people.




    .... oh, wait.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  12. #37
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    Funny how the argument against Iraq was that it was an illegal war against an oil-rich Muslim nation that was no threat to American national security or interests.

    I'm sorry, how is Libya different?
    Is the answer Libya doesn't have much oil?

  13. #38
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Memphis Tn,USA-now
    Posts
    5,436

    Default

    12% of the world's oil supply isn't "much"?
    But,this isn't about oil.Even I can see that the intent was to level the playing field when one side of a fight has airpower and the other is a militia(citizens armed on their own hook to depose a dictator) with no air power and only such heavy weapons as they are able to capture while using light infantry arms.
    Are the people against any US intervention in this fight in favor of Khadaffi being able to run roughshod over his own people?What would that say about the United States if we didn't think that other people's Freedom was worth fighting for,just because it "doesn't involve us"?

    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    Is the answer Libya doesn't have much oil?

  14. #39
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    12% of the world's oil supply isn't "much"?
    But,this isn't about oil.Even I can see that the intent was to level the playing field when one side of a fight has airpower and the other is a militia(citizens armed on their own hook to depose a dictator) with no air power and only such heavy weapons as they are able to capture while using light infantry arms.
    Are the people against any US intervention in this fight in favor of Khadaffi being able to run roughshod over his own people?What would that say about the United States if we didn't think that other people's Freedom was worth fighting for,just because it "doesn't involve us"?
    So, you supported the US liberation of the Iraqi people, right?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  15. #40
    MembersZone Subscriber
    voyager9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Southern NJ
    Posts
    2,007

    Default

    Not about Democrats, but a good article on the US in Libya over at USNI blog: All ahead slow in Libya

    President Obama rushed into Libya due to circumstances on the ground and for reasons that have largely been articulated at a high level, and not a detailed level. That typically means US policy is both political and strategic, but neither the political nor strategic reasons are good for domestic political consumption. After the initial phases of US military activity, under the NATO flag the US military policy for Libya has become “the least we can do which is also the most we will provide.”
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

  16. #41
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    12% of the world's oil supply isn't "much"?
    But,this isn't about oil.Even I can see that the intent was to level the playing field when one side of a fight has airpower and the other is a militia(citizens armed on their own hook to depose a dictator) with no air power and only such heavy weapons as they are able to capture while using light infantry arms.
    Are the people against any US intervention in this fight in favor of Khadaffi being able to run roughshod over his own people?What would that say about the United States if we didn't think that other people's Freedom was worth fighting for,just because it "doesn't involve us"?
    Probably the same as they used to think, oh wait, nobdy cared whether we were involed unles it was a world war situation. In fact, our interfering with every country's issues is what lead to us being hated in the world to begin with. We can't be a world police. Look at what it's doing to our economy. If we're to be the world's police then there shouldn't have been any issues with us going to Iraq as well then right?

  17. #42
    105
    105 is offline
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    I trust the Democrats and Republicans about as much as I trust a Cobra versus a cotton mouth.
    That pretty much sums it all up right there.

  18. #43
    Back In Black
    ChiefKN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The Nice Part of New Jersey
    Posts
    6,981

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    In fact, our interfering with every country's issues is what lead to us being hated in the world to begin with.
    That is not why we are hated...

    We are hated because we have freedom. Freedom that isn't controlled (for the most part) by a religious belief. Another reason is that we have the right to pick our political leadership.

    Lastly, it is a fundamental belief in this country that we believe that all of mankind has these rights by virtue of being human.

    That threatens a good majority of the world.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  19. #44
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Memphis Tn,USA-now
    Posts
    5,436

    Default

    If they hate us for helping out every time some nation suffers a natural disaster or needs help ousting a dictator,just wait until we manage to elect some isolationist President who won't allow the troops to leave our shores unless the country is attacked and more civilians killed as a result.
    The countries who hate us the most have also been among the first to scream for help from Uncle Sam when they need and/or want it to solve their problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Probably the same as they used to think, oh wait, nobdy cared whether we were involed unles it was a world war situation. In fact, our interfering with every country's issues is what lead to us being hated in the world to begin with. We can't be a world police. Look at what it's doing to our economy. If we're to be the world's police then there shouldn't have been any issues with us going to Iraq as well then right?

  20. #45
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Memphis Tn,USA-now
    Posts
    5,436

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    So, you supported the US liberation of the Iraqi people, right?
    That's right.If Operation Iraqi Freedom was started over oil,why are we paying closer to $4.00/gallon for gasoline instead of getting gas stipends as the troops still on duty in Iraq watch the sand dunes collapse as we suck that country dry for our own tanker fleet?(Don't get me started on how few US flagged tankers and other merchies there really are)
    Last edited by doughesson; 04-11-2011 at 02:46 PM.

  21. #46
    105
    105 is offline
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    198

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    If they hate us for helping out every time some nation suffers a natural disaster or needs help ousting a dictator,just wait until we manage to elect some isolationist President who won't allow the troops to leave our shores unless the country is attacked and more civilians killed as a result.
    The countries who hate us the most have also been among the first to scream for help from Uncle Sam when they need and/or want it to solve their problems.
    As valid today as it was in 1973.

    http://www.americanrhetoric.com/spee...eamericans.htm

  22. #47
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long time no Sea
    Posts
    2,253

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    You are extremely naive if you think this Libyan operation will only remain an air effort.
    Isn't it amazing how true that statement has been proved.

    The top ten democratic slogans are spot on.

    We found out today that the administration and the democrats are really not willing to cut anything. They are the ones playing games. The Army got half pay today and that was definitely not done by the House. This is the dems Playing games friends.

    Can your believe that Reid actually said that the Republicans do not care about womens health? How did he get planned parenthood get on the same level as womens health. This is the spin and shell game. Like comparing football with terrorism.

    Remember, his former counterpart, Nancy Pelosi said in November 2006, that it was perfectly OK for the Government to lie if it is in the best interests of the nation. Can you imagine what the media and dems would do if Boehner or Bush had said that? Typical.

    Remember, The GOP promised before the mid terms that they intended to cut 100 billion in spending and the democrats have the nerve to be surprised? The democrats failed to meet the requirements by not setting a budget for the last two years, like they are supposed to do. Incredible.
    Last edited by jam24u; 04-08-2011 at 05:09 PM.

  23. #48
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    If they hate us for helping out every time some nation suffers a natural disaster or needs help ousting a dictator,just wait until we manage to elect some isolationist President who won't allow the troops to leave our shores unless the country is attacked and more civilians killed as a result.
    The countries who hate us the most have also been among the first to scream for help from Uncle Sam when they need and/or want it to solve their problems.
    So all of those Islamic extremists that were/are still in Afghanistan loved us sooooo much for helping them against USSR right? Same with Iraq when we helped to oust the old Govt. and ole Saddy took their place. Iran ring a bell. All we get from helping is **** on, so why do we do it?

    No one ever comes to our aid when we have natural disasters or any kind of national crisis, say, 9/11.

    Actually, they'll probably be happy to be rid of the arogant attitude that our foreign policy makers have established of thinking we can fix everything in this world. It's NONE of our business, we don't belong there. But, if you guys want to keep putting your heads in the dirt and ignore the issues, go right ahead, just don't fault others for seeing that it's not right.

  24. #49
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the southeast.
    Posts
    1,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 105 View Post
    Awesome.

  25. #50
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    477

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    12% of the world's oil supply isn't "much"?
    But,this isn't about oil.
    Actually, this time, it is. Ever wonder WHY France, of all countries, got involved FIRST?



    Even I can see that the intent was to level the playing field when one side of a fight has airpower and the other is a militia(citizens armed on their own hook to depose a dictator) with no air power and only such heavy weapons as they are able to capture while using light infantry arms.
    Way to swallow the hook.

    Are the people against any US intervention in this fight in favor of Khadaffi being able to run roughshod over his own people?
    Obama raked Bush up and down for involving the US in Iraq without any threat to our national security.

    I'm sorry, when exactly did Libya threaten our national security? Or do the rules change when a Democrat is in office?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. World Of Fire Report: 06-07-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-08-2005, 08:41 AM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 05-03-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-06-2005, 08:04 PM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 04-10-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-13-2005, 11:03 PM
  4. World Of Fire Report: 01-13-05
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-16-2005, 10:13 PM
  5. World Of Fire Report: 08-10-04
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-12-2004, 08:21 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register