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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    There are a lot of evil dictators in the world. There is Al-Bashr in Sudan, Kim Jong-Il in North Korea, and thats just for starters. When did it become our problem to bomb each and every country that is ruled by one? Gaddafi is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Just imagine this was the United States in question. A group of citizens rebel, including a small contingent of soldiers and their equipment. They begin attacking government installations with military might and precision. What response would you expect from the US government? Precisely why I feel like we shouldn't have picked sides in the Libyan rebellion, who are we to say who is right, no matter how bad Gaddafi has been?
    Thank you, pretty much my whole point. Crap like this is what got people ****ed off to begin with and got the terrorist's attention on us to begin with.

    I say if we are directly threatened, and I mean they attacked us in some way or there is undeniable proof that they are planning to attack, then fine, bomb their asses back to the stone age. But if it doesn't concern us, well, maybe we shouldn't be concerned about it.


  2. #22
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    There are a lot of evil dictators in the world. There is Al-Bashr in Sudan, Kim Jong-Il in North Korea, and thats just for starters. When did it become our problem to bomb each and every country that is ruled by one? Gaddafi is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Just imagine this was the United States in question. A group of citizens rebel, including a small contingent of soldiers and their equipment. They begin attacking government installations with military might and precision. What response would you expect from the US government? Precisely why I feel like we shouldn't have picked sides in the Libyan rebellion, who are we to say who is right, no matter how bad Gaddafi has been?
    Interesting. During the 80's, conservatives wanted Reagan to bomb Libya into smithereens. Now they openly criticize the president for attempting to do just that.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  3. #23
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Wow, education where you're from that bad? You seem to have trouble reading don't you. My problem with him is that WE ARE BROKE ALREADY and now he is leading us into yet another conflict that we cannot afford. Hope that cleared it up for you as to what is his fault and what isn't.
    We couldn't afford Iraq. That didn't stop conservatives from demanding unconditional support of the president.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Oh yeah, I never said anything about spare parts, I said REPAIR parts. We're not allowed to just keep spare parts on hand to make repairs.
    Still not the president's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Well, to me it seems that you are accusing me of being one of those that attacked people that didn't agree with the Iraq war. Quite the opposite. I do however get highly offended when a person attacks our military because of said war. That's not fair at all.
    I never attacked the military folks. Though if you read some of the comments on the link I posted you'll see that didn't stop anyone from calling me every unpatriotic name around.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    As to how that puts any perspective, as you say, on the discussion at hand, especially between you and me, I have no idea.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    I was in Iraq and quite personally, all of that bickering in the link you posted was quite pointless as we had already invaded, there was no turning back, no just up and leaving and letting the Iraqi people fend for themselves after WE made a huge mess of their country. Is that really where we want to go again with Lybia? That could very well be the scenario that plays out there.
    Or it could turn out for the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    OK, how about there racist comment towards whites and the Tea Party by one of CEO Vivian Schiller's executives that recently lead to her resignation. Not one bit of a liberal vibe there at all huh? All of the news outlets are the same, they have their own little agendas that are set by the CEO and executives of that company which tend to all be of a sinlge minded unity.
    Via heavily edited video. Also, do you believe individuals aren't allowed to have personal opinions? Can you point to a story where this individual injected his personal bias?

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Have you been asleep all of your life? We'll watch and we'll see. I hope I'm wrong, I really do. But still, we can't police every oppressed country in the world. I'm sorry for those people, I really am. But it's time to take care of the American people, not babysit every third world country ruled by a dictator. Why all of a sudden, after nearly twenty years of not bothering Ghadafi, is it so damn important to remove him?
    I asked that question about Hussein.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Hell, you could leave your kid with a total stranger. They might be a pedophile, the might not be, wanna take that chance?
    My kids are grown. What's your point?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #24
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    You are extremely naive if you think this Libyan operation will only remain an air effort.
    Could you please detail for us your crystal ball? Your argument is a hypothetical.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Edited because I consider FIREMECH a close friend on here and I don't see the need to argue when there is no right or wrong. It's my opinion and his opinion. I think we shouldn't be there, he does, oh well. I'll agree to disagree if you do brother.
    Honestly, I'd rather we were not involved. I'd rather see the 3rd world countries take care of their own, but they won't. They support the ousting of him, but don't want to ruffle the feathers of their "brothers". Chicken schit is what I call it. Make us look like the bad guys, yet approve of our involvement. pfffht

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    But a couple of points that I have to clear up.

    First, the 26th MEU was operating off of Pakistan on a humanitarian mission that was part of their tour. Kinda not very close to Lybia at all. They were only called to Lybia within this past month to join in operations in Lybia, so again, I stand by my comment that they brought in the MEU for more than just rescue missions. I might be wrong, but with Obama already giving the go for covert operations it kinda leads up to ground pounders going in eventually. But I never said they were already on the ground.
    The only clandestine operations on the ground is from CIA agents working covert. The ground strength of the 26th MEU is small aboard the ships. They would need to send in more companies for any ground assault. That is not in the works for now. Obama's "trying" to hold the high ground by not implementing ground forces, that is why it isn't in a full strength MEU assault position. Same with the 22nd MEU to take over, small attachment of ground
    forces. Hopefully, the GCE's won't be needed for their primary role.

    I don't know what you edited from you to me, originally. Doesn't matter. But know that I also consider you a Brother, and a friend.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Could you please detail for us your crystal ball? Your argument is a hypothetical.
    Its called history. No "No-Fly Zone" operation has ever ended without ground operations. Even with our bombings, the rebels continue to lose ground to the Libyan government. At some point, we will either have to give up and leave, or put troops on the ground to assist the rebels.

    You mentioned conservatives supporting bombing Libya 30 years ago, and not wanting to do it now makes them hypocrits. Ok fine, valid point. But what does that make the Democrats who openly criticized the last administration on Iraq and Afganistan, including sacred Obama, and promised to bring our troops home if elected in 2008. Three years later, they get us involved in a 3rd "non-war". Bush had 17 UN resolutions and the support of the majority of Congress to enter Iraq. Obama had 1 UN resolution, and never even consulted Congress. I would say "pot meet kettle" at this point, but I wouldn't want to appear to be making a black joke and be called a racist.

    My belief is it should take a declaration of war by Congress to allow our military to bomb and attack another country, something that hasn't been done since World War II. Every conflict we have been involved in since then has simply been a half assed skirmish that our military has had to fight with one hand tied behind their back. It has become an easy out for our politicians, to start wars, without being forced to call it one.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    I don't know what you edited from you to me, originally. Doesn't matter. But know that I also consider you a Brother, and a friend.

    FM1
    Just a stupidly long drawn out arguement. It wasn't worth it brother. And I take your point on the MEU's size.

    Group hug?!?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    We couldn't afford Iraq. That didn't stop conservatives from demanding unconditional support of the president.
    Oh really, only conservatives? I do remember one high profile demo-rat that went right along with them by the name of Hillary Rodham Clinton, among so many more.

    Still not the president's fault.
    Never said it was, how about we stick to the facts as they are. I never said it was Obama's fault that we have no money to get parts. Was I stated was that he shouldn't be getting us involved in yet another middle eastern conflict when we're already broke.

    I never attacked the military folks. Though if you read some of the comments on the link I posted you'll see that didn't stop anyone from calling me every unpatriotic name around.
    Never said you did either. In fact, I never once attacked you for your beliefs about Iraq, I never even posted on that thread. I'm sorry that paople ganged up on you on that thread and you were gang raped and you're still butt hurt from it. Get over it, that thread has nothing to do with the discussion here so stop bringing it up and bitching about it.

    Or it could turn out for the better.
    **** in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up the fastest. We see what Obama's hope has gotten us so far.

    Via heavily edited video. Also, do you believe individuals aren't allowed to have personal opinions? Can you point to a story where this individual injected his personal bias?
    So, I assume you have PROOF that it was heavily edited? I believe everyone has a right to a personal opinion. But when that personal opinion crosses the line to discrimination, that makes it a problem. Let someone make a comment like that about a minority and see what happens. And yeah, the story was on every news network there was, both liberal and conservative.

    I asked that question about Hussein.
    Ok, I see your point now. If Iraq was wrong we'll go somewhere else we don't belong to make another wrong and it'll make everything right. Because we all kow two wrongs make a right don't they.

    My kids are grown. What's your point?
    If you are so dense that you didn't get the point then I refuse to explain it to you as if you were a child. Figure out like a big boy.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 04-01-2011 at 10:28 AM.

  9. #29
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Oh really, only conservatives? I do remember one high profile demo-rat that went right along with them by the name of Hillary Rodham Clinton, among so many more.
    As a member of the minority party.
    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    **** in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up the fastest. We see what Obama's hope has gotten us so far.
    I remember hearing conservatives say the same thing during the Balkans Campaign in the 90's. Refresh our memories of the number of casualties during the military operation.

    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    So, I assume you have PROOF that it was heavily edited? I believe everyone has a right to a personal opinion. But when that personal opinion crosses the line to discrimination, that makes it a problem. Let someone make a comment like that about a minority and see what happens. And yeah, the story was on every news network there was, both liberal and conservative.
    Here's one of many articles. But for more information click here. You finish your article with a hypothetical.


    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Ok, I see your point now. If Iraq was wrong we'll go somewhere else we don't belong to make another wrong and it'll make everything right. Because we all kow two wrongs make a right don't they.
    Said no such thing. Stop dissolving into fantasy.


    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    If you are so dense that you didn't get the point then I refuse to explain it to you as if you were a child. Figure out like a big boy.
    Wow. Finishes with a pejorative. You really showed me.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    As a member of the minority party.
    But agreed none the less.

    I remember hearing conservatives say the same thing during the Balkans Campaign in the 90's. Refresh our memories of the number of casualties during the military operation.
    They said something about Obama's campaign of hope? Now we have fortune tellers in the government, damn.

    Here's one of many articles. But for more information click here. You finish your article with a hypothetical.
    Hypothetical nothing, it's a fact. Hapens all the time, I would quote you articles, but you're a big boy, if ts such a big deal, you look it up.

    Said no such thing. Stop dissolving into fantasy.
    See, ****es you off when someone turns your words around, but you have no problem doing that to others do you.


    Wow. Finishes with a pejorative. You really showed me.
    No, I told you. Had I shown you I would have printed out a pretty little picture for you since you obviously have problems with reading. Nothing pejorative at all, merely stating a fact that you couldn't figure out the analogy on your own. But if you insist, cry some more, it'll get me used to that little baby that'll be here in September. See, now that was pejorative.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 04-01-2011 at 01:58 PM.

  11. #31
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    No, I told you. Had I shown you I would have printed out a pretty little picture for you since you obviously have problems with reading. Nothing pejorative at all, merely stating a fact that you couldn't figure out the analogy on your own. But if you insist, cry some more, it'll get me used to that little baby that'll be here in September. See, now that was pejorative.
    Mere words can't describe how that makes me feel.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  12. #32
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    Isn't turnabout fair play?
    I thought the peace protesters would be going ballistic over this,and to some extent they are.They've been protesting providing air cover to people trying to overthow a dictator but I guess it's for the better.At least we don't have too many know nothing actors and actresses speaking their minds about subjects which they have little to no knowledge about.Shouldn't Sean Penn have been volunteering to serve as a human shield to prevent this use of air power?
    Yesterday,I heard that Eric Holder was moving ahead to try in military courts Kahleed Sheik Muhommad and others suspected of having taken part in the planning and execution of the Sept 11 attacks.
    I guess that it's okay when it's a liberal making these decisions because God knows that THEY know how to bring people to justice,right?God forbid that President Barack Hussein Obama should make an announcement that George Walker Bush was correct in wanting to have these terrorists tried in a military court where the security would be better.It just wouldn't do to say that he was right,would it?
    I wasn't aware that there was an outcry over President Reagan ordering the bombing of Libya back on April 13,1986.For the first few months of that year,my destroyer USS Mahan DDG 42 was sailing racetrack patterns around the 32 degrees,30 minutes North latitude line defying the territorial claim Muhmmar Khadaffi made that the Gulf of Sidra was internal waters.President Reagan wanted to show that it was international waters,just like the Gulf of Mexico,and thus open to all nations for navigation.We even got close enough to shore one night to see lights on the horizon and were told that they were lights of Benghazi.Never heard a threat warning light off once,either.
    When the bombs started falling,we had already been relieved by the next carrier battlegroup,headed for homeport and were three days out of Charleston when the news came over the radio.We'd been extended twice on that 6 month Med cruise and were well into the 8th month when we got word that yes,indeed we were really heading for home.
    No one gave a rat's *** about troop morale on extended tours,at least for the Navy.You were doing a job and they didn't want you leaving until it was done or you were relieved on station.
    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    What's even funnier is how during the Bush Administration war critics were called unpatriotic or traitors. We were told that criticism of the president while there were troops on harms way was detrimental to troop morale, and would embolden our enemies. Here's (Aid and Comfort to the Enemy) almost 500 posts that prove it. I guess troop morale isn't an issue any longer.

    More funny is that during the 80's, conservatives were wanting Reagan to bomb Libya into the Stone Age. Now that Obama is actually attempting to overthrow Gaddafi there are some who believe this action is an impeachable offense.

    Yup, the laughs never stop.
    Last edited by doughesson; 04-07-2011 at 12:26 PM.

  13. #33
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    Were our troops used in ground combat ops in Croatia,or Bosnia/Herzegovenia?
    No fly zones were implemented then and when our troops deployed there,it was as part of a UN peacekeeping force.Clinton didn't want the military to do what it does best:break things and kill people.He wanted them to be heavily armed cops,which is NOT what a combat unit is designed to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    Its called history. No "No-Fly Zone" operation has ever ended without ground operations. Even with our bombings, the rebels continue to lose ground to the Libyan government. At some point, we will either have to give up and leave, or put troops on the ground to assist the rebels.

    You mentioned conservatives supporting bombing Libya 30 years ago, and not wanting to do it now makes them hypocrits. Ok fine, valid point. But what does that make the Democrats who openly criticized the last administration on Iraq and Afganistan, including sacred Obama, and promised to bring our troops home if elected in 2008. Three years later, they get us involved in a 3rd "non-war". Bush had 17 UN resolutions and the support of the majority of Congress to enter Iraq. Obama had 1 UN resolution, and never even consulted Congress. I would say "pot meet kettle" at this point, but I wouldn't want to appear to be making a black joke and be called a racist.

    My belief is it should take a declaration of war by Congress to allow our military to bomb and attack another country, something that hasn't been done since World War II. Every conflict we have been involved in since then has simply been a half assed skirmish that our military has had to fight with one hand tied behind their back. It has become an easy out for our politicians, to start wars, without being forced to call it one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    Were our troops used in ground combat ops in Croatia,or Bosnia/Herzegovenia?
    No fly zones were implemented then and when our troops deployed there,it was as part of a UN peacekeeping force.Clinton didn't want the military to do what it does best:break things and kill people.He wanted them to be heavily armed cops,which is NOT what a combat unit is designed to do.
    Call it what you will, but troops on the ground all the same.

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    Funny how the argument against Iraq was that it was an illegal war against an oil-rich Muslim nation that was no threat to American national security or interests.

    I'm sorry, how is Libya different?

  16. #36
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    Funny how the argument against Iraq was that it was an illegal war against an oil-rich Muslim nation that was no threat to American national security or interests.

    I'm sorry, how is Libya different?
    Different because he was going to attack, kill and injure his people.




    .... oh, wait.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emt161 View Post
    Funny how the argument against Iraq was that it was an illegal war against an oil-rich Muslim nation that was no threat to American national security or interests.

    I'm sorry, how is Libya different?
    Is the answer Libya doesn't have much oil?

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    12% of the world's oil supply isn't "much"?
    But,this isn't about oil.Even I can see that the intent was to level the playing field when one side of a fight has airpower and the other is a militia(citizens armed on their own hook to depose a dictator) with no air power and only such heavy weapons as they are able to capture while using light infantry arms.
    Are the people against any US intervention in this fight in favor of Khadaffi being able to run roughshod over his own people?What would that say about the United States if we didn't think that other people's Freedom was worth fighting for,just because it "doesn't involve us"?

    Quote Originally Posted by mcwops View Post
    Is the answer Libya doesn't have much oil?

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by doughesson View Post
    12% of the world's oil supply isn't "much"?
    But,this isn't about oil.Even I can see that the intent was to level the playing field when one side of a fight has airpower and the other is a militia(citizens armed on their own hook to depose a dictator) with no air power and only such heavy weapons as they are able to capture while using light infantry arms.
    Are the people against any US intervention in this fight in favor of Khadaffi being able to run roughshod over his own people?What would that say about the United States if we didn't think that other people's Freedom was worth fighting for,just because it "doesn't involve us"?
    So, you supported the US liberation of the Iraqi people, right?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Not about Democrats, but a good article on the US in Libya over at USNI blog: All ahead slow in Libya

    President Obama rushed into Libya due to circumstances on the ground and for reasons that have largely been articulated at a high level, and not a detailed level. That typically means US policy is both political and strategic, but neither the political nor strategic reasons are good for domestic political consumption. After the initial phases of US military activity, under the NATO flag the US military policy for Libya has become “the least we can do which is also the most we will provide.”
    So you call this your free country
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