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  1. #21
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    Basically what FWD is trying to say is join the Air Force or Marines because there are more white people there.
    I've got some puerto rican blood, I speak spanish, and **** you for trying to say that that makes me less of an American. I love how you get offended by a private conversation in Spanish, like its any of your business or theres something wrong with speaking spanish. I'm willing to put my life on the line for this country, and calling it "the Mexican Army" because you dont think its white enough is a slap in the face to every latino person who serves.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyW View Post
    Basically what FWD is trying to say is join the Air Force or Marines because there are more white people there.
    I've got some puerto rican blood, I speak spanish, and **** you for trying to say that that makes me less of an American. I love how you get offended by a private conversation in Spanish, like its any of your business or theres something wrong with speaking spanish. I'm willing to put my life on the line for this country, and calling it "the Mexican Army" because you dont think its white enough is a slap in the face to every latino person who serves.
    Awful thin skinned for a service member If you knew anything about the Marine Corps, you might know we have a large Hispanic population. Which is fine, as anyone who studies the subject knows they are disproportionately highly represented in the ranks of those who have been awarded our highest combat honors-Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, etc.

    However, we are talking here about the United States Armed Forces. If you want to walk around speaking Spanish all day to fellow service members, I suggest you join the military of a country where Spanish is the primary language. The same would go for any other language, to include redneck gibberish and inner city ebonics. Every member of a unit has to have trust and faith in his fellow Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines, and carrying out "private" conversations in another language in the presence of those who don't know that language makes them wonder what you are trying to hide. That is not a recipe for unit cohesion.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    One time I was doing a BI in a barracks, a SSGT was yelling at a couple of PFC's for something or another. Yep that sure was a private conversationNormally I would not have been concerned or took notice, except for one problem, he was doing it in spanish. Kinda had a problem with that, especially given he was wearing the Stars and Stripes.<--------Stars and strips, son. United States Army. Should have been speaking English.

    Another time, our Fire Marshal got involved in the Court Marshal of a higher-end Sgt (cant remember exactly, maybe an SFC) who was using PW's to "encourage" his guys out of their racks in the morning, much to the Fire Department's disliking. They brought him up on court martial after the third time he got caught......Part of his defense was that he "did not understand the Fire Marshal, who should have explained it in Spanish."Yeah. That's BS.....It's a sad state of affairs when a criminal uses that as a defense. BTW he was found guilty and Court Martialed.
    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyW View Post
    Basically what FWD is trying to say is join the Air Force or Marines because there are more white people there.
    I've got some puerto rican blood, I speak spanish, and **** you for trying to say that that makes me less of an American. Never said it did, can you show me where I said that?I love how you get offended by a private conversation in Spanish, like its any of your business or theres something wrong with speaking spanish.I don't have a problem with people speaking spanish but when you are enlisted in the United States Army and wearing the Stars and Stripes on your shoulder, you should have enough respect to speak english. I'm willing to put my life on the line for this country, and calling it "the Mexican Army" because you dont think its white enough is a slap in the face to every latino person who serves.
    You want to know what's a slap in the face? The fact that I tried like hell, for over 11 years, to get hired by a major metropolitan fire department, but because I am a white/male/non-vet, I got passed over for minority races because there was a court order that they had to get hired over me. Yeah that's a slap in the face that stings hard, especially given that I moved into and lived in that waste of a City for 8+ years, had a car stolen, gave untold thousands in excessive taxes that I would not have had to given had I not lived there, and potentially gave up on a Firefighting job down south that I could have literally walked into, had I not had delusions of grandeur of getting hired onto a Fire Department where the only thing they care about is how many brothers and hispanics they can shove onto the job through the court order. Yeah, that stings a bit.

    It stings that there has to be a court order. But what stings worse is the fact that every time someone with white skin calls hispanics out on the carpet for something, you have to automatically label us racist. You sound like my Aunt, a devout diehard liberal- every time I complain about President Obama, she pulls the "you racist" card out of her sleeve. I don't care if the man is black, white, green, blue or red with yellow polka dots- HE SUCKS AS A PRESIDENT! It sucks that your race has to battle in court to get more of your kind hired....Why can't you just compete for the jobs like everyone else? Why does FDNY have to "dumb down" their written test? Why can't latinos and blacks and whites and everyone else just take the same ****ing test? Either you can read the damn thing or you can't. Why does FDNY have to "dumb down" their physical agility test because some latino or black or woman couldnt do it? Do we really have to hire dumber, weaker people? Again I dont care if you are black, white, green, blue or red with yellow polka dots, if you can't pass the fooking test then you don't deserve to have the job. Yeah, that's a slap in the face, that hurts real bad. Am I a racist? No, not at all. I hate all minorities that take advantage of the system equally.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 04-28-2011 at 09:42 AM.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    Awful thin skinned for a service member If you knew anything about the Marine Corps, you might know we have a large Hispanic population. Which is fine, as anyone who studies the subject knows they are disproportionately highly represented in the ranks of those who have been awarded our highest combat honors-Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, etc.

    However, we are talking here about the United States Armed Forces. If you want to walk around speaking Spanish all day to fellow service members, I suggest you join the military of a country where Spanish is the primary language. The same would go for any other language, to include redneck gibberish and inner city ebonics. Every member of a unit has to have trust and faith in his fellow Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines, and carrying out "private" conversations in another language in the presence of those who don't know that language makes them wonder what you are trying to hide. That is not a recipe for unit cohesion.
    Dittos to that. Same goes for displaying/flaunting foreign flags on post in barracks room or car windows/antenna. Intentional insults. Notice that the rest of the unit isn't speaking German, Dutch, Russian, Japanese, Yiddish, _____ ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    Awful thin skinned for a service member If you knew anything about the Marine Corps, you might know we have a large Hispanic population. Which is fine, as anyone who studies the subject knows they are disproportionately highly represented in the ranks of those who have been awarded our highest combat honors-Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, etc.

    However, we are talking here about the United States Armed Forces. If you want to walk around speaking Spanish all day to fellow service members, I suggest you join the military of a country where Spanish is the primary language. The same would go for any other language, to include redneck gibberish and inner city ebonics. Every member of a unit has to have trust and faith in his fellow Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines, and carrying out "private" conversations in another language in the presence of those who don't know that language makes them wonder what you are trying to hide. That is not a recipe for unit cohesion.
    First of all I'm not a service member yet I'm just enlisting in the future. Anyways it's not really thinned skin, the way I look at it its like football, if my teammates are joking around and saying racial stuff its no big deal we're all friends, but if someone from another team says something it's completely different. Its ridiculous for a civilian to get ****ed at military personnel for speaking spanish in a conversation that didn't involve him. He wasn't even part of the unit, he was just civilian walking around and he gets ****ed that people he doesnt even know are speaking Spanish. If you speak Spanish in front of people in your unit who don't understand it that's one thing, but if everyone involved in the conversation speaks it I don't see the harm. And I don't see how you're gonna stop people from talking like rednecks or "ebonics", people talk how they talk. I think it's dumb you think people who speak Spanish are trying to hide something, like we're automatically suspect or something. I understand why you shouldn't speak it in a conversation where people are involved who don't speak spanish, but theres no reason spanish speaking soldiers shouldnt speak spanish amongst each other, aside from "Welcome to America now speak English" bull****.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    You want to know what's a slap in the face? The fact that I tried like hell, for over 11 years, to get hired by a major metropolitan fire department, but because I am a white/male/non-vet, I got passed over for minority races because there was a court order that they had to get hired over me. Yeah that's a slap in the face that stings hard, especially given that I moved into and lived in that waste of a City for 8+ years, had a car stolen, gave untold thousands in excessive taxes that I would not have had to given had I not lived there, and potentially gave up on a Firefighting job down south that I could have literally walked into, had I not had delusions of grandeur of getting hired onto a Fire Department where the only thing they care about is how many brothers and hispanics they can shove onto the job through the court order. Yeah, that stings a bit.

    It stings that there has to be a court order. But what stings worse is the fact that every time someone with white skin calls hispanics out on the carpet for something, you have to automatically label us racist. You sound like my Aunt, a devout diehard liberal- every time I complain about President Obama, she pulls the "you racist" card out of her sleeve. I don't care if the man is black, white, green, blue or red with yellow polka dots- HE SUCKS AS A PRESIDENT! It sucks that your race has to battle in court to get more of your kind hired....Why can't you just compete for the jobs like everyone else? Why does FDNY have to "dumb down" their written test? Why can't latinos and blacks and whites and everyone else just take the same ****ing test? Either you can read the damn thing or you can't. Why does FDNY have to "dumb down" their physical agility test because some latino or black or woman couldnt do it? Do we really have to hire dumber, weaker people? Again I dont care if you are black, white, green, blue or red with yellow polka dots, if you can't pass the fooking test then you don't deserve to have the job. Yeah, that's a slap in the face, that hurts real bad. Am I a racist? No, not at all. I hate all minorities that take advantage of the system equally.
    Look you are a racist dude. Straight up, you judge people by their race, you lump them into racial categories. Yeah everytime you call hispanics out as a race about something, we call you racist, because it's ****ing racism. It's judging someone by the color of the skin. White people are still getting hired as firefighters, and if you're gonna bitch about Obama or whatever I'm assuming you're a pretty staunch conservative, personally I don't give a **** about politics either way but I hear you conservatives are big on personal responsibility. Maybe instead of pointing the finger at blacks and hispanics, look in the mirror. Maybe it's not some black dudes fault you didnt get the job. I mean honestly dude there arent a whole lot of black folks or hispanics in fire protection, at least not down here, I walked into the station in my mostly black neighborhood and it's pretty disproportionately white. I dont know man it seems like you're putting the blame entirely on minorities because you couldn't get the job, I think that's a pretty ****ty outlook. And yeah you implied I was less American when you said the Army should be called the Mexican Army because of all the latinos. That's like saying it should be called the German Army because of all the white people in it, obviously patriotic white people would be offended by that.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyW View Post
    First of all I'm not a service member yet I'm just enlisting in the future.
    That explains it all. You do not have a clue, and what you think about the military is irrelevant. Until you actually enlist, ship to boot camp, graduate, complete an MOS school, and spend some time in a real military unit, you know absolutely zero about the effects of race and language on unit cohesion and discipline.

    As for FWDBuff, you are young and dumb enough to know nothing about the court orders and racial quotas placed on many large fire depts. He is one of many people who put all they had into becoming a big city firefighter, and came out with nothing, despite scoring highly on the tests. I suggest you do some research on the subject. He has valid reason to be bitter. Start here:

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/art..._cities_towns/

    And I suggest you develop thicker skin-unless you join the Air Force, the other service members will eat you alive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    That explains it all. You do not have a clue, and what you think about the military is irrelevant. Until you actually enlist, ship to boot camp, graduate, complete an MOS school, and spend some time in a real military unit, you know absolutely zero about the effects of race and language on unit cohesion and discipline.

    As for FWDBuff, you are young and dumb enough to know nothing about the court orders and racial quotas placed on many large fire depts. He is one of many people who put all they had into becoming a big city firefighter, and came out with nothing, despite scoring highly on the tests. I suggest you do some research on the subject. He has valid reason to be bitter. Start here:

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/art..._cities_towns/

    And I suggest you develop thicker skin-unless you join the Air Force, the other service members will eat you alive.
    The fact is, qualified white people still get hired so he has no reason to blame minorities, and even if he did it's not even minority firefighters who enacted the policies in the first place. FWD cant talk about it either, he has no right to criticize service members if he didnt even serve. And I've got pretty thick skin in real life, but this is supposed to be a more professional place, and regardless if someone I didn't know tried telling me I wasn't American or patriotic because of my race I would probably just fight them.

  9. #29
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyW View Post
    , and regardless if someone I didn't know tried telling me I wasn't American or patriotic because of my race I would probably just fight them.
    Once again, show me specifically where I made these remarks?

    I do not have the right to critize members of the Military about matters concerning the Military. I do have the right to criticize them for speaking spanish, swahili, german, french, polish, ebonics, ferengi, romulan, or whatever else besides ENGLISH, while they are wearing the STARS AND STRIPES and ON UNCLE SAMS DIME.

    If you dont like it, hit the ignore button for me. You wont hurt my feelings at all, I wont see you do it. In fact even if I did see you hit the iggy button for me, I would probably care less.

    Have a pleasant day!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnthonyW View Post
    The fact is, qualified white people still get hired so he has no reason to blame minorities, and even if he did it's not even minority firefighters who enacted the policies in the first place. FWD cant talk about it either, he has no right to criticize service members if he didnt even serve. And I've got pretty thick skin in real life, but this is supposed to be a more professional place, and regardless if someone I didn't know tried telling me I wasn't American or patriotic because of my race I would probably just fight them.
    FWD has been in the federal service and knows how the military operates. While he may not have served as a member of the armed forces, he has worked for the DoD for several years and knows first hand what does happen and how it affects the overall morale and unit cohesion. Comparing unit structure and a game of high school football are two completely different things. While your analogy may be correct, the impact it has is far from it.

    While you may be correct (let's assume, of course) in that the minority member did not directly enact a law or policy governing minority hiring quotas, they (or someone on their behalf such as an attorney) indirectly got that law or policy enacted based on either lawsuits or complaints. One thing that EVERYONE who served in the military or for the government knows is that the only reason a specific rule or policy is there is because somebody at one time broke it. The reason that the button labeled EMERGENCY SHUTDOWN or FOAM DUMP DO NOT TOUCH is labeled that way is because someone decided to press that button when they were not suppose to.

    I am going to have to agree with our friends on this board that until you serve in the armed force or even work around the military you are not qualified to be an expert in social matter relating to the military.

    And finally, gunnyv enjoys mocking (in a harmless manner) the Air Force culture. I agree with most of what he says. I am proud to say that I served in the Air Force active duty for six years and am now continuing on my career as a federal civilian firefighter (going on two years now). Even though I was in the Air Force I served on specific missions with both Army and Marines outside the wire. I am fortunate enough to speak Spanish fluently and have seen first hand what that does to a unit. I could name a few example but I'm not going to because it's moot and won't steer your opinion one way or another. Point is that although some posters on a forum may say things that aren't politically correct, it's a forum. Get over it. If you have a serious question that an answer cannot be found anywhere else you are more than welcome to ask and any one that has a valid input will give it to you. That's the point. Don't get all bent about a debate that you are not going to win.

    (/end rant)
    Last edited by ShredddinCali; 04-29-2011 at 06:51 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShredddinCali View Post
    I am going to have to agree with our friends on this board that until you serve in the armed force or even work around the military you are not qualified to be an expert in social matter relating to the military.

    And finally, gunnyv enjoys mocking (in a harmless manner) the Air Force culture. I agree with most of what he says. I am proud to say that I served in the Air Force active duty for six years and am now continuing on my career as a federal civilian firefighter (going on two years now).
    Thanks for the backup. As always, my comments regarding the other services are made with tongue firmly in cheek. I have worked with everyone else at some point, including in Iraq, where my security was an Army Guard unit. I trusted them with my life, and have nothing but respect for the jobs the other services do. That said, we have earned the right to bust on each other. AnthonyW hasn't earned squat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    That said, we have earned the right to bust on each other. AnthonyW hasn't earned squat.
    Neither has FWD. The difference is I'm a 17 year old kid in the process of joining up and hes a grown *** man who's never served. And last I saw he was the once criticizing the troops not me.

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    [QUOTE=FWDbuff;1268251]Once again, show me specifically where I made these remarks?

    You implied it when you said the Army wasn't the US Army because of all the mexicans serving.
    I do not have the right to critize members of the Military about matters concerning the Military. I do have the right to criticize them for speaking spanish, swahili, german, french, polish, ebonics, ferengi, romulan, or whatever else besides ENGLISH, while they are wearing the STARS AND STRIPES and ON UNCLE SAMS DIME.
    Really. So once I'm in I cant speak spanish at my puerto rican abuelas house? Should I not take a community college class on spanish or another language because I'm wearing the stars and stripes?
    If you dont like it, hit the ignore button for me. You wont hurt my feelings at all, I wont see you do it. In fact even if I did see you hit the iggy button for me, I would probably care less.
    I dont really care man but you seem to take out a lot of your frustration on minorities to the point where its like a scapegoat for you.

  14. #34
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    Dude, get over yourself. You are only 17 years old, you've barely broken enough peach fuzz through your face to wear out a training razor. Close your piehole, sign on the dotted line, and do your four years. Then again, don't enlist. There are plenty of cities that still have minority hiring clauses still in effect. Courts recently ruled against a class-action lawsuit brought against the City of Philadelphia in an attempt to repeal the minority hiring clause. Now they are talking about dumbing down the test there. Courts in New York City recently ruled that the test there had to be dumbed down, as "minorities could not pass it." So it would seem you have a decent chance in New York, too. Camden NJ- another city plagued with mandatory minority hiring regulations. Get out, get hired, and do 10 years as a firefighter, and then maybe you'll be able to have an intellegent conversation with me.

    I dont judge a man by the color of his skin, I judge a man by the way he pulls a deuce and a half down a hallway along side of me, I judge him by his courage and willingness to get the job done in an efficient and orderly manner. I judge him/them by they way we work together in the firehouse. by the way never, ever had any of the 3 portugese guys I worked with break out into a conversation in Portugese. Or the handfull of Italians I worked with...Nope, never, not once. I have worked alongside some outstanding firefighters who were non-caucasians. I have a boatload of friends who are Philly Cops and Firemen. But the difference between they and you, is that they understand the difference between a minority and a non-caucasian. Minorities are the ones who constantly cry racism every time "the man" downs them. They are the ones who moan and pizz about "the man" and "the system" being against them. The guys I speak of are the ones who shake their heads whenever people of their race like you open their mouths.....The guys of your race who get embarassed, the ones who took the tests, passed the tests, earned the job and proved themselves worthy of being called a FIREFIGHTER. The ones who have RED blood. Just like me, just like everyone else I have ever served with in the 10 years I faithfully served these United States before I had to get out due to a back injury.

    You claim to be proud of your heritage. That's great, I applaud you for that. I am Armenian and German. But never, not once, have I ever had the sudden urge to start a conversation with someone in Armenian while I was on duty, wearing the Stars and Stripes, while on Uncle Sam's official timeclock. Call me silly, I kind of thought that it was just a little tacky. And don't hand me that schit about I implied you couldn't speak your language at your home. What you do on your own time in your own home is your business and you g'damn well know it is.

    Do yourself a favor, google FDNY Minority Hiring, or Philadelphia Fire Department Minority Hiring. Call the City of Philadelphia Department of Personnel, and ask them why the last scheduled test had to be cancelled and re-scheduled? No, wait better yet I'll just give you the answer: Because the Vialiants (a "social" group of black firefighters) forged so many applications that they had to be thrown out.

    I would call you pathetic, but you are only 17- you just dont know any better. Do me a favor, next time you want to call me a racist, look in the mirror first.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Wow, according to the 2001 census data, I, being a non-hispanic causasian, am a minority in California. Maybe I can get hiring preference at LAFD or CALFIRE?

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    Interesting how a question about military classification turned into a diatribe on the perceived social ills of the American Military. It's a good thing this isn't a public forum where anyone can see the racist rants. Oh wait, it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Dude, get over yourself. You are only 17 years old, you've barely broken enough peach fuzz through your face to wear out a training razor. Close your piehole, sign on the dotted line, and do your four years. Then again, don't enlist. There are plenty of cities that still have minority hiring clauses still in effect. Courts recently ruled against a class-action lawsuit brought against the City of Philadelphia in an attempt to repeal the minority hiring clause. Now they are talking about dumbing down the test there. Courts in New York City recently ruled that the test there had to be dumbed down, as "minorities could not pass it." So it would seem you have a decent chance in New York, too. Camden NJ- another city plagued with mandatory minority hiring regulations. Get out, get hired, and do 10 years as a firefighter, and then maybe you'll be able to have an intellegent conversation with me.

    I dont judge a man by the color of his skin, I judge a man by the way he pulls a deuce and a half down a hallway along side of me, I judge him by his courage and willingness to get the job done in an efficient and orderly manner. I judge him/them by they way we work together in the firehouse. by the way never, ever had any of the 3 portugese guys I worked with break out into a conversation in Portugese. Or the handfull of Italians I worked with...Nope, never, not once. I have worked alongside some outstanding firefighters who were non-caucasians. I have a boatload of friends who are Philly Cops and Firemen. But the difference between they and you, is that they understand the difference between a minority and a non-caucasian. Minorities are the ones who constantly cry racism every time "the man" downs them. They are the ones who moan and pizz about "the man" and "the system" being against them. The guys I speak of are the ones who shake their heads whenever people of their race like you open their mouths.....The guys of your race who get embarassed, the ones who took the tests, passed the tests, earned the job and proved themselves worthy of being called a FIREFIGHTER. The ones who have RED blood. Just like me, just like everyone else I have ever served with in the 10 years I faithfully served these United States before I had to get out due to a back injury

    You claim to be proud of your heritage. That's great, I applaud you for that. I am Armenian and German. But never, not once, have I ever had the sudden urge to start a conversation with someone in Armenian while I was on duty, wearing the Stars and Stripes, while on Uncle Sam's official timeclock. Call me silly, I kind of thought that it was just a little tacky. And don't hand me that schit about I implied you couldn't speak your language at your home. What you do on your own time in your own home is your business and you g'damn well know it is.

    Do yourself a favor, google FDNY Minority Hiring, or Philadelphia Fire Department Minority Hiring. Call the City of Philadelphia Department of Personnel, and ask them why the last scheduled test had to be cancelled and re-scheduled? No, wait better yet I'll just give you the answer: Because the Vialiants (a "social" group of black firefighters) forged so many applications that they had to be thrown out.
    Well I want to serve my country in the military before I try to be a firefighter. I don't need affirmative action to be a firefighter, I'm smart enough and in good enough shape to get the job without any leg up. The thing I hate about affirmative action is that it gives racist people more ammunition to doubt us and they look at a black firefighter and say "He didn't earn the job he got it because of affirmative action" even though they don't know **** about him. But you're wrong about how I think the "man" is holding me down the two things my dad (who served in the army in the Gulf War) always told me about race were to never let anyone disrespect me because of my race and be racist to me, and to never use my race as an excuse to not achieve something in my life.

    But never, not once, have I ever had the sudden urge to start a conversation with someone in Armenian while I was on duty, wearing the Stars and Stripes, while on Uncle Sam's official timeclock.
    If you did though, I would have no right to criticize you because I'm not a firefighter and have never been a firefighter so I have no right at all to tell you how to do your job.

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    Did I forget to mention that you can only be a True Military Firefighter in one branch of the service? And that is the USAF!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg89 View Post
    Did I forget to mention that you can only be a True Military Firefighter in one branch of the service? And that is the USAF!
    define "true military firefighter"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firedawg89 View Post
    Did I forget to mention that you can only be a True Military Firefighter in one branch of the service? And that is the USAF!
    If I claim that the Air Force is not a True Military Service, can you convince me otherwise?

    And, pray tell, explain how one who is a member of a military service, whose primary function is to fight fires, and is trained and equipped to do so, does not qualify to be a "true" military firefighter?

    Army FF: I'm a trained firefighter in the Army, but mostly I count ordnance and ride in convoys. I deploy for 12-15 months in the combat zone.

    Navy: I'm in the Navy, and we're all trained to fight fires. Some lucky guys get to sit on the deck of the carriers and watch the planes take off and land. The rest of us chip paint. My ship deploys for 6-8 months at sea.

    Marine FF: I'm a Marine. My MOS is ARFF, but we do what we need to do to ensure the pilots who support our infantry are taken care of. I deploy for 7 months in the combat zone.

    Air Force FF: I'm a FireDawg. I work at the base FD with the civilian firefighters. Sometimes the Air Force makes me do military stuff. If I wanted to do that I would have joined the Army. They even make us go overseas for 4 months at a time, and sometimes the cable and internet go out. How can they expect us to operate under such conditions. WOOF WOOF!
    Last edited by gunnyv; 04-30-2011 at 07:14 PM. Reason: more info

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