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  1. #21
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    Interesting thoughts in this thread

    Whats the weight per 50' section of 2'' versus 1 3/4'' versus 2 1/2''? Yes I could do the math and figure it out and i plan on it, but to lazy to do it right now. I'm on a v day so cut me some slack.

    I don't know what the weight is but I can say it has never been an issue here.

    Is the 2 inch hose that you all use now a true 2 inch hose or is it one of the "low friction loss" 2 inch. The reason why i ask is we just switched to ponn conquest 1 3/4 which if i recall correctly is 1.96 or something close to that when charged. So it is basically only .04 inches less then a true 2 inch hose close enough for government work.

    We use true 2 inch hose.

    We have found through flow testing with a flow meter that our 150' preconnect with a tft dual force nozzle in the red setting flowing 150 gpm the pdp is only 90 psi. Very impressed so far with the results. Reaction force is pretty much non existant.

    I am not a fan of the Dual Force nozzle, but hey of it works for you...Fantastic.

    Do anyone know how much of a difference the ponn is compared to 2" hose in terms of friction loss?

    Haven't got a clue. We bought 2 inch before the "Low friction loss" 1 3/4 inch Ponn Conquest came on the market.
    You ask some interesting questions.
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  2. #22
    Forum Member L-Webb's Avatar
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    How is the nitrile hose holding up?

    And what kind of pressure can it take?
    Bring enough hose.

  3. #23
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L-Webb View Post
    How is the nitrile hose holding up?

    And what kind of pressure can it take?
    We have only had one piece of hose have a problem. It got a hole in it.

    It will withstand the same pressure as standard fire hose. Well, all except the 5 inch that is designed for a max pressure of 200 psi.
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  4. #24
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    2" Hose

    Conquest 50'

    Weight: 22LB Coupled
    FL@ 150 GPM 13/100' 1 3/4" is 19
    FL@ 200 GPM 21/100' 1 3/4" is 32
    FL@ 250 GPM 28/100' 1 3/4" is 47

    Standard Rubber Lined 2" (I Chose Snap Tite TPX)

    Weight: 22LB Coupled
    FL (Value of standard rubber lined hose)
    FL@ 150 GPM 18/100'
    FL@ 200 GPM 30/100'
    FL@ 250 GPM 50/100'

    I know there are other manufacturers of "miracle hose" out there as well.

  5. #25
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    We're now using 100' of 2" (Ponn Conquest) to finish out our 2 1/2" line, which is 500' in a static bed (600' total). Nozzle is an Elkhart 1 1/8" tip over a 1 1/4" tip, and we also carry a 1" tip in case this line is used as a long residential line.

    We also upgraded all of our crosslays to break-apart shutoffs with built-in 1 1/8" slug tips, finished with either 15/16ths SBs or Elkhart Chief 150@50 tips. With a gradual upgrade to Conquest 1 3/4", we don't anticipate any problems getting 250gpm on our 200' and 300' pre-connects.

  6. #26
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlitzfireSolo View Post
    We're now using 100' of 2" (Ponn Conquest) to finish out our 2 1/2" line, which is 500' in a static bed (600' total). Nozzle is an Elkhart 1 1/8" tip over a 1 1/4" tip, and we also carry a 1" tip in case this line is used as a long residential line.

    We also upgraded all of our crosslays to break-apart shutoffs with built-in 1 1/8" slug tips, finished with either 15/16ths SBs or Elkhart Chief 150@50 tips. With a gradual upgrade to Conquest 1 3/4", we don't anticipate any problems getting 250gpm on our 200' and 300' pre-connects.
    I understand what you are doing, but to simplify things why not just go to 2 inch in your crosslays? You could go to a 1 1/4 slug and make EVERY line capable of a heavy hit.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-03-2011 at 07:03 PM.
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  7. #27
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    My way is still better than yours

  8. #28
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    My way is still better than yours
    In the world of conventionalism, I suppose your way is better.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  9. #29
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    Yea i am not a fan of the tft's either but that is what the city put on the rigs.

    This thread has got me thinking though.

    I wondder what kind of "big" flows we can get out of our new ponn 1 3/4 hose.

    I might just have to break out the flow meter and a 1 1/4 tip for the smooth bore

  10. #30
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    2" Hose

    Conquest 50'

    Weight: 22LB Coupled
    FL@ 150 GPM 13/100' 1 3/4" is 19
    FL@ 200 GPM 21/100' 1 3/4" is 32
    FL@ 250 GPM 28/100' 1 3/4" is 47

    Standard Rubber Lined 2" (I Chose Snap Tite TPX)

    Weight: 22LB Coupled
    FL (Value of standard rubber lined hose)
    FL@ 150 GPM 18/100'
    FL@ 200 GPM 30/100'
    FL@ 250 GPM 50/100'

    I know there are other manufacturers of "miracle hose" out there as well.
    I will need to go look at our attack engine to see what the EP is for our preconnects. When we flow tested them to mark the gauges we used the discharge they would be attached to so our discharge pressure would be accurate for each discharge taking into account possible differences in piping.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I will need to go look at our attack engine to see what the EP is for our preconnects. When we flow tested them to mark the gauges we used the discharge they would be attached to so our discharge pressure would be accurate for each discharge taking into account possible differences in piping.
    2" piping too?

  12. #32
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    2" piping too?
    We don't spec piping size we spec performance. Specifications for our 2 inch pre-connects called for a minimum flow of 300 gpm at no more than 20 psi internal friction loss. Specifications for our rear 2 1/2 inch discharges called for a minimum of 600 gpm at no more than 20 psi internal friction loss.

    Specifying pipe size and not performance takes the monkey off the manufacturer's back because no matter what the final flow and friction loss are they can sat they met the spec. Specifying flow requirements makes the manufacturer do the engineering to ensure they meet that requirement and not just simply throw in pipe, with 37 elbows in it.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    I understand what you are doing, but to simplify things why not just go to 2 inch in your crosslays? You could go to a 1 1/4 slug and make EVERY line capable of a heavy hit.
    I thought about it, and I wasn't opposed to the idea. For the most part, though, that's actually what we're doing, given the actual working diameter of the Conquest 1 3/4" - it's more that we chose for 250gpm to be our "heavy hit" offensive flow. The 1 1/4" tip was included on the 2" line mostly for defensive use; we found that advancing at 325gpm with two firefighters was extremely difficult. I understand what you guys do with under-pumping the 1 1/4" for 300gpm and using a "pin and hit" type technique - we just happened to settle on 250gpm for most high-flow offensive work, yet the 1 1/4" is still an option on the 2".

    Essentially, we're operating pretty similarly, with a few differences in the details: Our 1 3/4" 200' and 300' crosslays are our equivalent to your 2" crosslays, just with a preference for 250gpm top flow instead of your 300gpm, and our "long line" is basically your "apartment line" except we didn't want a wye (less bulk while stretching, and no risk of it getting kicked or bumped closed) and we chose for the base hose to be 2 1/2" instead of 3" (a bit lighter for minimal staffing).

    One thing is for sure: I really can't see justification for flowing 250gpm offensively with anything larger than 2", with the exception of highrises.

  14. #34
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Okay I went and checked the pump discharge pressures on our attack engine.

    For our 200'-2 inch front bumper crosslays the pressures are:

    160 gpm: 75 psi PDP
    200 gpm: 125 psi PDP
    300 gpm: 150 psi PDP


    For our 300'-2 inch over the pump crosslays the pressures are:

    160 gpm: 95 psi PDP
    200 gpm: 145 psi PDP
    300 gpm: 190 psi PDP

    Keep in mind these are PUMP DISCHARGE PRESSURES, not simply friction loss figures.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  15. #35
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    FyredUp: The numbers pretty much agree with the flow tests and your PDP numbers except for the 300 gpm on the 300’ cross lay. I made the following assumptions….
    160 & 200 gpm were using a 15/16” slug tip and the 300 gpm was done with a 1 ¼” slug.
    15/16” tip at 160 gpm needs a NP of 37 psi.
    15/16” tip at 200 gpm needs a NP of 57.5 psi.
    1 ¼” tip at 300 gpm needs a NP of 41 psi.
    Bumper Line:
    160 GPM Np =37psi Hose Loss = 29psi Piping loss = 9 psi
    200 GPM Np = 57psi Hose Loss = 42psi Piping Loss = 14psi
    300 GPM Np = 41psi Hose Loss = 80psi Piping Loss = 31psi
    Piping losses calculate to an equivalent of 28 feet of 2” iron pipe.
    Cross Lays:
    160 GPM Np = 37psi Hose Loss = 44psi Piping Loss = 14psi
    200 GPM Np = 57psi Hose Loss = 63psi Piping Loss = 25psi
    300 GPM Np = 41psi Hose Loss = 135psi Piping Loss = 14psi *
    (*) – Suspect Reading - Based upon the previous two flows, this loss should be around 50 psi. Perhaps these flows were performed on different cross lays with different piping and elbows. Equivalent 2” pipe length for the first two is 50 feet. Equivalent length for last reading is only 12 feet of 2” pipe or 38 feet of 2 ½” pipe. (about 2 elbows and the swivel)
    To verify the final (300 gpm) use a pitot gauge on the 1 ¼” slug tip. Raise the PDP until you get 41psi on the pitot. This should be the required PDP for the 300 gpm setting. The darn piping makes a big difference when you are pushing flows that the plumbing wasn’t designed to do.

  16. #36
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    KuhShise,

    The flow tests were performed using a calibrated flow meter. The nozzle used for the 160 and 200 gpm flows were the Elkhart Chief Model 4000-24 low pressure combination nozzle tip attached to an Elkhart B375GAT pistol grip shut off with a built in 1 1/4 inch slug. The water way through the ball shut off is 1 3/8 inch.

    To be honest we weren't too worried about the nozzle pressure just meeting a specific flow through the desired length of preconnect. The front bumper crosslay was tested by pulling one of the lines and flowing it. The over the pump crosslay beds were tested the same way, one line was pulled and flowed.

    I am going to have to borrow a flow meter again to test our second pumper so perhaps I will retest the attack pumper and this time attach a pressure gauge behind the nozzle to get abetter idea of nozzle pressure.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 04-05-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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  17. #37
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    FyredUp: Through the years, I've been burned a couple of times using flow meters. A pitot and a properly tapered playpipe and nozzle with a calibrated gauge pitot is an exact way to confirm that the flow meter is properly calibrated. This is the reason that UL runs their annual calibration tests on apparatus flow meters. Also since the present day hose lines expand with internal pressure, they also change friction loss as the diameter changes. I only mentioned the possible problem with the 300 gpm flow on the cross lay because the piping losses seemed to be a little out of whack. We too are fighting operating pressure differences, but are using TFT's so as long as the Wide Open flow is reached, other application rates are controlled by the nozzleman. A gauge behind the nozzle (opening at right angle to flow) can be influenced by the venturi effect and turbulence in the line. Put a wye behind the nozzle and attach a gauge to the other outlet. This way the velocity head developed in the hose line can be "mostly" measured.
    Last edited by KuhShise; 04-05-2011 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Added gauge note

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FyredUp View Post
    We don't spec piping size we spec performance. Specifications for our 2 inch pre-connects called for a minimum flow of 300 gpm at no more than 20 psi internal friction loss. Specifications for our rear 2 1/2 inch discharges called for a minimum of 600 gpm at no more than 20 psi internal friction loss.

    Specifying pipe size and not performance takes the monkey off the manufacturer's back because no matter what the final flow and friction loss are they can sat they met the spec. Specifying flow requirements makes the manufacturer do the engineering to ensure they meet that requirement and not just simply throw in pipe, with 37 elbows in it.
    It was a joke!

  19. #39
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    It was a joke!
    Um, DOH! I guess you got me.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFD21C View Post
    Interesting thoughts in this thread

    Whats the weight per 50' section of 2'' versus 1 3/4'' versus 2 1/2''? Yes I could do the math and figure it out and i plan on it, but to lazy to do it right now. I'm on a v day so cut me some slack.

    Is the 2 inch hose that you all use now a true 2 inch hose or is it one of the "low friction loss" 2 inch. The reason why i ask is we just switched to ponn conquest 1 3/4 which if i recall correctly is 1.96 or something close to that when charged. So it is basically only .04 inches less then a true 2 inch hose close enough for government work.

    We have found through flow testing with a flow meter that our 150' preconnect with a tft dual force nozzle in the red setting flowing 150 gpm the pdp is only 90 psi. Very impressed so far with the results. Reaction force is pretty much non existant.

    Do anyone know how much of a difference the ponn is compared to 2" hose in terms of friction loss?
    There is a great article in the Feb. issue of Fire Rescue call Let The Pump do The Work. It compares 1 3/4, 2, 3, and 5 inch lines. It has all the numbers as far as weight of hose, gal. of water per ft of hose line etc.

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