2 inch hose...Are you using it?

[FyredUp]

My volly FD has been using 2 inch hose exclusively for handline ops for a little over a decade now. When I say exclusively, I mean we have no other handline size for fire attack. Well, I guess that is not entirely true we use 3/4 garden hose and 1 inch forestry hose for brush fire operations. We use 2 inch for fire attack, 3 inch for extending handlines with an "apartment line" set-up, for supplying ground monitors, and for supplying FDCs, and 5 inch for water supply ops.

We did the usua change from 1 1/2 inch lines to 1 3/4 back in the late 70's, but failed to follow through with a nozzle change. We were still using the Akron Turbojet 30-60-95-125 GPM nozzles so our 1 3/4 inch hose line was nothing more than a low friction loss line with no increase in flow. Then one of our Chiefs bought into the TFT automatic nozzle hype and we bought those. Our experience with them was less than satisfying, we found that any time we tried to flow more than 150 gpm FFs would gate down the nozzle to make it easier to control. We found that often this reducd the flow to below 100 GPM.

We began our own research program looking at all types of nozzles, smoothbore, Dual-Force TFTs, selectable gallonage combination nozzles, single gallonage combination nozzles, and low pressure and 100 psi nozzles. We settled on Elkhart break a part low pressure 200 GPM at 75 psi combination nozzles with a 15/16 smooth bore slug. We underpumped the combination tip to around 55 PSI to get around 160 gpm for our starting flow. At this time we still had 2 1/2 inch hose lines although they were rarely utilized.

A nearby FD was looking to get rid of a couple hundred feet of 2 inch hose so we bought it to try it out. The guys preferred it to the 1 3/4 and the chief saw that at fire after fire when the crew would go to the back of the rig, past the crosslays and pull the 2 inch. He decided to replace all of our 1 3/4 inch hose with 2 inch and lady luck shined down on us when another nearby FD decided to sell their old 2 inch. We bought around 2000 feet of 2 inch for about 1/3 the cost of new. We tested it and found out to 300 feet a flow of 300 GPM was practical so we took our slug tip nozzles to a local machine shop and had them bored out to 1 1/4 so we could flow 300 at around 40 PSI at the tip. Now we had an all purpose line that could flow our initial 160 GPM at about 55 PSI, could go to 200 GPM at 75 PSI, and even by removing the combo tip and going to the slug tip flowing 300 GPM. The only downside we noticed was a loss of a cohesive stream from the slug tip past about 70 feet.

Both of our engines carry 200 and 300 foot 2 inch preconnects. They also have 3 inch "apartment lines" with a gated wye and 100 feet of 2 inch connected to them. We do carry another bundle pack for either extending that original 2 inch line or adding a second line.

Okay, why we wanted one all purpose line...We ran VERY shorthanded for years. During the day it was a good day time fire for us to get 4 out on the first rig (things are far better these days). We couldn't make the mistake of pulling the wrong line and having the second crew, with any kind of speed anyways, pull the right line. With our set-up we can flow down to a 1 3/4 inch line in flow or all the way up to a 2 1/2. We regularly move the line with 2 people and have no problems doing it.

I know I have talked about our set-up here many times but never telling the entire story all in one topic. So tell me your thoughts. Let's not turn this into a flame war because I am not saying what you do is wrong, just saying what we do.

[Chenzo]

Why, in fact, my department DOES use 2 inch hose... And oddly enough the same nozzles... And even stranger yet, the same crosslay setup with the apartment packs in the hose bed...

Awfully coincidental if you ask me....

[BULL321]

Father like Son!

[Bones42]

We don't.

And really no reason other than the cost and keeping things "simple" for the guys. We simply can't afford to change out all of our 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" in 1 shot. And working in some 2" in the mix does not add enough bang for the buck to keep everyone functioning without added confusion.

I'll be honest, if we ever had the chance to switch out all the attack lines...it would definitely be tested.

[FyredUp]

We don't.

And really no reason other than the cost and keeping things "simple" for the guys. We simply can't afford to change out all of our 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" in 1 shot. And working in some 2" in the mix does not add enough bang for the buck to keep everyone functioning without added confusion.

I'll be honest, if we ever had the chance to switch out all the attack lines...it would definitely be tested.

We were lucky in that most of our 2 1/2 was ancient and we had already started the move to replacing it with 3 inch for apartment lines and FDC supply. We needed more attack line and the remaining 1 1/2 we had was also ancient so when the opportunity to buy that used 2 inch arose it was perfect timing.

[voyager9]

The logic makes sense.. I like the idea of a single line and single nozzle. KISS. The timing in your case sounds perfect too.

I'd like to try 2" with the Ekhart, or something similar. We run two 1.75" with TFT and smoothbore tips and 2.5" smoothbore. The 2" setup you have sounds like the best of both worlds.

Bones, as usual, has a good point on cost. That's something that would probably keep us out until the stars align.

[FyredUp]

The logic makes sense.. I like the idea of a single line and single nozzle. KISS. The timing in your case sounds perfect too.

I'd like to try 2" with the Ekhart, or something similar. We run two 1.75" with TFT and smoothbore tips and 2.5" smoothbore. The 2" setup you have sounds like the best of both worlds.

Bones, as usual, has a good point on cost. That's something that would probably keep us out until the stars align.

Cost is an element I won't disagree with you on that. Especially if you are going radical and making a complete changeover to something different. For us to switch back to "conventional" 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" hose would be quite expensive at this point since we don't have any of either size anymore. I guess I just don't see it happening at this juncture.

We were lucky in finding that used 2 inch to get our program started. Further we got a Fire Act Grant to purchase more new hose and in the long run we have replaced all the old 2 inch with Key 2 inch rubber nitrile 100 foot lengths with 5 piece 1 1/2 inch couplings.

What we have done works well for us and really has carried the "KISS" principle to its fullest. All of our preconnect gauges are marked for the 3 flows we use for quick reference. There is never pulling the wrong sized line. There is no nozzle confusion because they are all the same.

The nozzle is an Elkhart B-375GAT pitol grip shut off with the integral slug tip. Ours came originally with 15/16 tips and we had them bored out locally to 1 1/4 inch. The 1 1/4" slug was not available from Elkhart when we had ours bored out, now it is. The combo tip is an Elkhart 4000-24 that flows 200 GPM at 75 PSI. (NO, I don't sell Elkhart nozzles. I just like them!)

[TRUCK61]

what size couplings are you guys using on the hose 1 3/4 or 2.5? Just curious, if you're using 1 3/4 I take it there's not much interference.

[CKirk922]

what size couplings are you guys using on the hose 1 3/4 or 2.5? Just curious, if you're using 1 3/4 I take it there's not much interference.

Same question from my side of the fence... All of our combo/ break aparts are 1 3/4 selectables with 200 plus top ranges.

[MG3610]

I'm not a fan of 2" hose for anything other than standpipe racks, and in that application its arguable at best. Een though its marginally bigger, I don't see a place where it presents with a major advantage over our 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" options. I get what you're saying but it see it as a "compromise".

We have a 400' 1 3/4" preconnect with a 1 1/8" slug and a 200@100 fog tip. Similar principle. 240 GPM with fog tip, 180 GPM with fog tip, same pump pressure. Pump pressure is 170 if memory serves me correct. Ponn Conquest (I know its like 1.89 ID)

For what its worth, we will stretch a 2 1/2" line with one man, with the driver helping...if we have to.

[FyredUp]

The coupling size is 1 1/2" just like on 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" hose. We flow tested everything using a calibrated flow meter and we did not find a noticable loss because of the coupling size. Our 3 inch hose has 2 1/2inch couplings which in this area anyways is common so I guess to me the smaller coupling size is inmconsequential.

[FyredUp]

I'm not a fan of 2" hose for anything other than standpipe racks, and in that application its arguable at best. Een though its marginally bigger, I don't see a place where it presents with a major advantage over our 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" options. I get what you're saying but it see it as a "compromise".

First of all, you are using Ponn Conquest so you are in reality using closer to 2 inch hose than 1 3/4 inch hose already.

You don't have to agree with our choice but I will try to point out why it is the BEST choice for our situation.
1) We looked at our initial staffing and we decided we needed a high flow line that was deployable AND able to be moved by 2 firefighters.
2) We wanted a system that eliminated mistakes in line selection and nozzle choice.
3) We know that in OUR community the use of 200 and 300 foot preconnects will deal with all but 3 commercial structures. In fact they will handle the majority of fires in those structures depending on placement of the engine.
4) Our then current hose was getting to the point it needed replacement so a radical move was easy to do.
5) To me the greatest reason why it is the best choice for us is over a decade later no one is clamoring for us to change back, AND it has been successfully used to battle structure fires in our community and in mutual aid communities.

Is it a compromise? Only if you believe that the traditional 1 3/4 and 2 1/2 is the only right answer. We see it as the answer for solving our local fire attack issues.


We have a 400' 1 3/4" preconnect with a 1 1/8" slug and a 200@100 fog tip. Similar principle. 240 GPM with fog tip, 180 GPM with fog tip, same pump pressure. Pump pressure is 170 if memory serves me correct. Ponn Conquest (I know its like 1.89 ID)

Yep, try doing those flows at that disatnce with REAL 1 3/4 inch hose.

just don't believe your pump pressure is 170 over that distanace doing the flows you are claiming. Using the C(QxQ)L formula for 2 inch hose it comes out over 220 PSI for 240 gpm with a 50 psi NP. I think you need to either check your flow, or check the EP, because this just doesn't figure out right.

For what its worth, we will stretch a 2 1/2" line with one man, with the driver helping...if we have to.

Yep, and he can sit on it and spray from a fixed position while we can pull our 2 inch with 2 guys, make a heavy 300 gpm hit, gate back, advance and do it again from a different position. That is the advantage of the 2 inch in minimum staffing situations.

Like I said in my original post, I don't want this to become a flame war over what we do. We aren't gping to change anytime soon and in reality I don't expect anyome to change what they do based on my little blurb here. It works for us and that is what matters to us. I posted this to try and get people to look at an alternative idea.

[Chenzo]

I'm not a fan of 2" hose for anything other than standpipe racks, and in that application its arguable at best. Een though its marginally bigger, I don't see a place where it presents with a major advantage over our 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" options. I get what you're saying but it see it as a "compromise".

We have a 400' 1 3/4" preconnect with a 1 1/8" slug and a 200@100 fog tip. Similar principle. 240 GPM with fog tip, 180 GPM with fog tip, same pump pressure. Pump pressure is 170 if memory serves me correct. Ponn Conquest (I know its like 1.89 ID)

For what its worth, we will stretch a 2 1/2" line with one man, with the driver helping...if we have to.

Paid or volunteer? Do you always have a substantial amount of people show up on a scene? Not trying to pick a fight, just a couple questions.

[Nozzle nut 22]

When I first joined, we used 2" (with 1.5" couplings) for handlines, and 3" for bomb lines and leader lines. Nozzles were a combo of TFT Handlines and Smoothbores w/15/16" tips. The hotel packs on the engine were 1.75" hose with Akron turbojets- the OLD school ones. ( 39/60/90/125 gpm, left over from our 1.5" days)

The three inch was old- the newest and best leftover when we switched to 5" supply years before. As a handline, it SUCKED. Sticking a 100psi automatic on the end just insured it never got pulled... Extremely hard to move, and the nozzle reaction was nuts, plus that size is just plain hard to grip with gloves on.

We ended up switching to 1.75" and 2.5" as part of a capitol improvement project. We also get new hose, nozzles and appliances with each new truck. When we bought our quint, we got Elkhart breakapart playpipes for the deuce and a half lines. The crosslay has the smoothbore tips on it. The selecto-matic auto tips live in the cmpt.

I do not know why we went with the 1.75" handlines. The members absolutely appreciated the switch to 2.5" for the big lines, though! Esp with the smoothbores- they're much more user friendly. I'd have preferred to keep 3" for the leader lines, but as we are all volunteer, we needed to KISS. No need to further confuse the pump operator. We do have 3" donuts for hydrant lines- along with the 5.

I've long been an advocate for the type of nozzle layout Fyredup uses- low pressure breakaparts. The same shut-off can be used with a combo tip, a smoothbore tip, or it can be used for break and extend ops. ( One could also add a length of 1" to it for overhaul) At least trading the 100 psi autos for a low pressure model or for Chiefs/Assaults. The TFT's are pretty popular though. ( they do make a low pressure version) Not to mention EVERYONE uses them around here...

Personally, I like the 2" line. Less friction loss means longer lays are possible, and there are no shortage of those around here!

[MG3610]

I just answered what we do, in keeping with the title of the post. I never said anything against what you do. It seems like you are going on defense already.

Our dept is combo paid/vol. Our paid engine runs with 2 members. We initiate fire attack with anywhere from 2 to 7 members. Our staffing sucks.

Our pump pressure is 170 PSI. This was verified with a pitot tube calibrated flow meter, not a formula. I do all of these tests. Our fire hose provided surprising flow results. All of our preconnects are flow tested and the panel is labelled accordingly.

I can run a 2 1/2" line flowing 250 GPM (smooth bore) standing up by myself, or 320 sitting down. I bet im smaller than most guys too. Just sayin!


I know our hose is not "true" 1 3/4", thats why I stated so.

Please understand I am not saying my way is better than yours, I just replied with what we do and why. I think the process by which your dept has come to its current setup is admirable and shows that you have people with open minds willing to think. For us, a change is not in order. We already tried that change, it showed no appreciable benefit. We have done many other things to make limited manning firefighting easier, u can see my thread about our 2007 KME engine for some examples. Buying lighter weight ladders was one of those things, but I will not poison a hose discussion with knuckle dragger tools LOL.

Last minute FWIW. We have a stack of 2" hose on our rack. Its used in our standpipe racks, because switching to 2 1/2" would freak people out. We used to have the 2" on our 400' line, but when we got more conquest we put it on n place. At one point our engine had 1", 1 1/2", 1 3/4", 2", 2 1/2", 3" and 4". It was a mess. We retired the 1 1/2" and 2" from the hosebeds.

For the record, I believe 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" is the only right answer. I'd actually like to go back to 1 1/2" some days! No flaming here, unless youre lighting your flamethrower!

[Chenzo]

I just answered what we do, in keeping with the title of the post. I never said anything against what you do. It seems like you are going on defense already.

If this was directed at me, I was just curious on your staffing.

[FyredUp]

I just answered what we do, in keeping with the title of the post. I never said anything against what you do. It seems like you are going on defense already.

Nope, I just responded and explained why we do what we do and why it works for US. You called it a compromise, we call it thinking outside the box to solve a problem in an unconventional way.

Our dept is combo paid/vol. Our paid engine runs with 2 members. We initiate fire attack with anywhere from 2 to 7 members. Our staffing sucks.

We are all POC. Our staffing used to suck ALL THE TIME. Now it sucks occasionally. Even during the day it is not unusual to get 6 or 7 guys for a lift assist for the vomit comet, or 10 or 12 for a fire call. Our membership is the highest in over 20 years.

Our pump pressure is 170 PSI. This was verified with a pitot tube calibrated flow meter, not a formula. I do all of these tests. Our fire hose provided surprising flow results. All of our preconnects are flow tested and the panel is labelled accordingly.

Call me skeptical...

I can run a 2 1/2" line flowing 250 GPM (smooth bore) standing up by myself, or 320 sitting down. I bet im smaller than most guys too. Just sayin!

Well, of course you can using proper technique, I often demonstrate that when I teach. BUT you are stuck, you are not going to advance that line by yourself, or even very far with 2 people. I can advance a 2 inch line by myself and with 2 people we can move it all over the place, make a 300 gpm hit, gate back, and advance. It would take 3 or more firefighters to do that with a 2 1/2" line. Not a criticism on what you do, just the facts.

I know our hose is not "true" 1 3/4", thats why I stated so.

Most people do not know that. In fact salesman in this area have been known to call that low friction loss 1 3/4 inch hose...like it is freaking magical or something.

Please understand I am not saying my way is better than yours, I just replied with what we do and why. I think the process by which your dept has come to its current setup is admirable and shows that you have people with open minds willing to think. For us, a change is not in order. We already tried that change, it showed no appreciable benefit. We have done many other things to make limited manning firefighting easier, u can see my thread about our 2007 KME engine for some examples. Buying lighter weight ladders was one of those things, but I will not poison a hose discussion with knuckle dragger tools LOL.

TRUCKIE TALK IN A ENGINE MAN TOPIC! YOU BLASPHEMER!!

We did not come to our decision lightly, we did run the nozzle tests I mentioned in my first post, as well as experiment with the 2 inch hose. While radical in many eyes it has proven itself to be simple, foolproof, and it works for making a hard hitting fire attack with minimum staffing, OR allowing an even harder hit with multiple lines than we could ever do with the same amount of people and 2 1/2 inch lines.

If what you do works for you, more power to you. Then there is no need to change.


Last minute FWIW. We have a stack of 2" hose on our rack. Its used in our standpipe racks, because switching to 2 1/2" would freak people out. We used to have the 2" on our 400' line, but when we got more conquest we put it on n place. At one point our engine had 1", 1 1/2", 1 3/4", 2", 2 1/2", 3" and 4". It was a mess. We retired the 1 1/2" and 2" from the hosebeds.

We were never quite that bad although close. When experimenting with the 2 inch we had 1", 1 3/4", 2", 2 1/2", 3" and 5". On our attack engine we have 2, 3, and 5". On our second out engine we have 1, 2, 3, and 5". On our tanker pumper we have 1, 2, 3, and 5 inch. The one inch we carry is either a 1 or 2 one hundred foots rolls of forestry hose carried in a compartment for brush fires.

For the record, I believe 1 3/4" and 2 1/2" is the only right answer. I'd actually like to go back to 1 1/2" some days! No flaming here, unless youre lighting your flamethrower!

Nah, no flamethrower from me. Not everyone can be as radical as we are. It takes the right circumstances, and people willing to just look beyond the way it has always been done, to find local answers to local problems.

I just like to share ideas...even one as out there as this.

[neiowa]

.....
We began our own research program looking at all types of nozzles, smoothbore, Dual-Force TFTs, selectable gallonage combination nozzles, single gallonage combination nozzles, and low pressure and 100 psi nozzles. We settled on Elkhart break a part low pressure 200 GPM at 75 psi combination nozzles with a 15/16 smooth bore slug. We underpumped the combination tip to around 55 PSI to get around 160 gpm for our starting flow. At this time we still had 2 1/2 inch hose lines although they were rarely utilized. ...

Any issues with kinking at 55psi? Or settle on brand _______ hose you find to be better than another to avoid kinking?

I have AFG coming to replace all our handlines and and LDH. Now using OLD 1-1/2" and mix of 2-1/2" and 3" on our pumper.

Enough $ to consider options though stuck with Protech 100psi combination nozzles on pumper. Tanker Pumper is CAFS with Akron breakapart smoothbore (with 200gpm 75psi Turbojets as water only backup). No particular benefit to 2" for a CAFS line. In fact less "scrubbing" action means longer minimum stretch. Also have a quickattack monitor in the grant for each unit.

[RFD21C]

Interesting thoughts in this thread

Whats the weight per 50' section of 2'' versus 1 3/4'' versus 2 1/2''? Yes I could do the math and figure it out and i plan on it, but to lazy to do it right now. I'm on a v day so cut me some slack.

Is the 2 inch hose that you all use now a true 2 inch hose or is it one of the "low friction loss" 2 inch. The reason why i ask is we just switched to ponn conquest 1 3/4 which if i recall correctly is 1.96 or something close to that when charged. So it is basically only .04 inches less then a true 2 inch hose close enough for government work.

We have found through flow testing with a flow meter that our 150' preconnect with a tft dual force nozzle in the red setting flowing 150 gpm the pdp is only 90 psi. Very impressed so far with the results. Reaction force is pretty much non existant.

Do anyone know how much of a difference the ponn is compared to 2" hose in terms of friction loss?

[FyredUp]

Any issues with kinking at 55psi? Or settle on brand _______ hose you find to be better than another to avoid kinking?

Kinking has not been an issue with the KEY nitrile rubber hose we purchased. I can't speak for any other brand of hose.

I have AFG coming to replace all our handlines and and LDH. Now using OLD 1-1/2" and mix of 2-1/2" and 3" on our pumper.

Think outside the box when you purchase new hose. We bought our 2 inch, 3 inch, and 5 inch all in nitrile rubber, and all in 100 foot lengths. Saves on couplings and cost. The nitrile rubber allows us to hose the dirt off and reload it wet. saves time and effort since we don't have to wash, dry, and rack the stuff. Saves hose because we don't have to have so much extra hose in storage. Since we run 200 and 300 foot preconnects going with 100 foot lengths for the 2 inch hose made no difference. We have had no problems with using 100 foot lengths for the 3 inch hose either. We use the 3 inch hose for an apartment line set-up, supplying FDCs, and ground monitors. For the 5 inch the hose in the bed is all 100 foot lengths. We also carry a 50 foot section on each engine for short lays or to make up the line without pulling another 100 foor section.

Enough $ to consider options though stuck with Protech 100psi combination nozzles on pumper.

Can they be converted to low pressure? I went to the Protek site and they do sell low pressure nozzles.

Tanker Pumper is CAFS with Akron breakapart smoothbore (with 200gpm 75psi Turbojets as water only backup). No particular benefit to 2" for a CAFS line. In fact less "scrubbing" action means longer minimum stretch. Also have a quickattack monitor in the grant for each unit.

I am no expert on CAFs so I have no idea whether there are or are not any benefits to 2 inch hose with CAFs. We use Class A foam through the 2 inch lines.

We like the RAM lightweight monitor made by Elkhart. Small, lightweight, stable and will flow up to 500 gpm.

Congratyulations on getting the grant. It is almost like Christmas!