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Thread: Scba

  1. #1
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    Default Scba

    During the practical training on SCBA I posed a question on whether SCBA can be used for confined space rescue and most of attendees replied no.

    The reason being it will restrict mobility thru the restricted entry. Airline respirators are a better choice for industrial confined space rescue like tanks?

    what can be concluded by this

    vinay


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    I conclude that your attendees need some additional SCBA skill training.

    Performing reduced profile evolutions with an SCBA is (should be) a basic skill.

    Airline respirators are great if you are not in an O2 deficient space.

    We train using SCBA for confined space entries.

    I find long supplied air lines with attached tether retrieval lines more of a pain. They always get tangled into a big knot the further you go.

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    Forum Member GTRider245's Avatar
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    I would agree that air lines are a better choice for Confined Space operations. You as the entrant never have to worry about monitoring air supply and you don't have the added profile of an SCBA.

    Now, that is not to say that SCBA cannot be used for the same purpose. You will just have to adjust your tactics and make sure to monitor air supply.

    lexfd5, where did you come up with not being able to use air lines in a O2 defficient envioronment?
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    SCBA could be used for confined space, but airline respirators are widely used. Depending on the confined space an SCBA would be very hard to use. Sure, we should all know how to do reduced profile maneuvers in SCBA, but its not at all a good idea to have to do it just to move around a confined space.

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    Forum Member Bushwhacker's Avatar
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    Per OSHA or NFPA one of the two i can't remember , But if you have confined space rescuers in on supplied air, the Backup rescuer Has to have the opposite, IE SCBA. That Has some serious cobwebs on it and might not be correct, But i am pretty dam sure it is.

    SCBA's are all we use for confined space around here, can't justify buying a supplied air cart, training, maintenance, on something that doesn't get used that often.
    Courage, Being Scared to Death and Saddling Up anyways.

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    Operational level confined space rescues are defined in part by no entanglement hazards, the ability to see the victim from the opening and the ability to make the rescue without disturbing your ppe. That would allow use of standard SCBA.

    Technical level confined spaces have entanglement hazards or complex layouts or would require manipulation of the standard PPE making airlines the requirement.

    I am not sure why the comment about SABA not being good for an O2 deficient atmosphere, they meet the same standards as SCBA for use in an IDLH

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    SCBA can most certainly be used in a confined space environment, though using a supplied air regulator is the industry standard. Not all confined spaces are entered/egress through something the size of a manhole cover. Also distances longer than 300' will require an SCBA, since you can only attach 300' to a supplied air regulator, total. If you are running both rescuers off the same SAR, that is 150' each!

    A OSHA defined confined space is one that has space large enough to enter and do work, not intended for continuous occupancy and has limited means of entrance/egress. Everything from vaults, silos, trenches and vessels meet the definition. Also a permit required confined space has either a IDLH atmosphere, engulfment hazard, features that can trap or asphyxiate or some specially recognized danger.

    That said, take an example of an underground vault, like the underground electrical transformer stations in many large cities. You can enter from a ladder with a relatively larger opening with an SCBA, but it is a confined space.

    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    I conclude that your attendees need some additional SCBA skill training.

    Performing reduced profile evolutions with an SCBA is (should be) a basic skill.
    We all need more training, but performing a reduced profile evolution is not a great way to enter a confined space. Too many variables that you could end up loosing your SCBA and mask down a hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post

    Airline respirators are great if you are not in an O2 deficient space.
    Huh? Please expand your idea here. We are talking about a SAR, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post

    I find long supplied air lines with attached tether retrieval lines more of a pain. They always get tangled into a big knot the further you go.
    Line management, to use your words; "I conclude that your attendees need some additional [SAR] skill training."

    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post

    Now, that is not to say that SCBA cannot be used for the same purpose. You will just have to adjust your tactics and make sure to monitor air supply.
    And there are many scenarios where the SCBA becomes the best choice. Distances longer than 300' for the SAR hose or HAZMAT environment where you need to be in a Level A suit come to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhacker View Post
    Per OSHA or NFPA one of the two i can't remember , But if you have confined space rescuers in on supplied air, the Backup rescuer Has to have the opposite, IE SCBA. That Has some serious cobwebs on it and might not be correct, But i am pretty dam sure it is.
    Bush, am not bashing you but I am unfamiliar with such requirement, and it is not how we've ever been told to operate. NFPA 1670 (Ch 7) does not have such a requirement, and OSHA does not require it in 29 CFR 1910.146. I also searched through two confined space rescue books and cannot find such a requirement. Sorry man, would love to hear where you got this from though. I know California has a different permit required confined space regulation, though scanning through that I could not find it either.
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    Forum Member Bushwhacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post


    Bush, am not bashing you but I am unfamiliar with such requirement, and it is not how we've ever been told to operate. NFPA 1670 (Ch 7) does not have such a requirement, and OSHA does not require it in 29 CFR 1910.146. I also searched through two confined space rescue books and cannot find such a requirement. Sorry man, would love to hear where you got this from though. I know California has a different permit required confined space regulation, though scanning through that I could not find it either.
    Bud, your probably more up on that than I am so I will take your word for it, My confined space class was kinda vague, and focused more on patient prep and transport than everything it should have. I will look through what i have but i am sure if you crossed reference 29 CFR, and 1670 that you covered everything I have. Apologize about giving ya the wrong info
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwhacker View Post
    Bud, your probably more up on that than I am so I will take your word for it, My confined space class was kinda vague, and focused more on patient prep and transport than everything it should have. I will look through what i have but i am sure if you crossed reference 29 CFR, and 1670 that you covered everything I have. Apologize about giving ya the wrong info
    By no means am I calling you out either, but I also have never heard of that, nor have we ever trained that way. Local protocol maybe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    By no means am I calling you out either, but I also have never heard of that, nor have we ever trained that way. Local protocol maybe?
    It is very possible, I Am only Operations leveled trained. I was taught buy a Local FD that does a Fair, not a lot, but a fair amount of it. It is Very possible that I Had a one of their local protocol's Bass Ackwards with a NFPA or OSHA.
    Courage, Being Scared to Death and Saddling Up anyways.

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    Guess the confusion is in my definitions. "Airline" to me is the old style compressed air supplied by low pressure hose (easily kinked) to the face mask (think old time diving helmet set up) powered by electric air compressor. Also our SOP calls anything not an SCBA a respirator (no supplied air, just filter,) just another difference in definition.

    We call our supplied air lines "Long Lines" (ones that go to a second stage regulator.)

    The entanglement issue is not our handlers fault it is usually mine

    Blanket statements for this is better than that are never right. Everything requires training.
    Last edited by lexfd5; 04-07-2011 at 12:27 PM.

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