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    Default Storz attack lines

    Have an AFG to replace all our 1-1/2" and 2-1/2". Much of it 20-30 years old. Will be going to 1-3/4". Perhaps 3" Also buying 5"S for supply.

    Anyone using, or have mutual aid neighbors using, smaller Storz on attack lines? Feedback?

    Advantages are:
    Unisex Quick to break/make.

    Not really concerned with compatible with neighbors. An adapter on rare occasion where required.


    Our County standard for tanker fill is 2-1/2"S but that is the only place where used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Advantages are:
    Unisex Quick to break/make.
    My gut instinct is: bad idea.

    I've never had any trouble un/threading standard fire thread couplings on attack lines and I've never seen one de-couple itself because it wasn't secured tightly enough. I have seen Storz couplings de-couple themselves: Bad for a supply line, potentially deadly for an attack line.

    Also, how does a disorientated firefighter check a sexless coupling for "this way out" cues?

    (Does NFPA 1961 allow for sexless couplings on attack lines? Just a thought.)
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    The couplings are much larger than the normal NST threaded couplings. I would think advancing line would be more difficult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    My gut instinct is: bad idea. The skies are falling, the seas are boiling...cats and dogs are living in harmony......I agree with the man......

    Also, how does a disorientated firefighter check a sexless coupling for "this way out" cues?
    This, right here, should be the statement and reason that quashes any further thought of switching to storz couplings on attack lines.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    For the purposes of debate, aren't Storz attack lines the standard in Europe? Yes, I do realize that their fire attack methods differ than ours.

    I'd be more concerned about the size of the coupling in an interior fire attack than being able to find your way out. That brings me to another thought: I've never talked to anyone that actually had to identify couplings after becoming separated from their hoseline in an IDLH. How about you all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    That brings me to another thought: I've never talked to anyone that actually had to identify couplings after becoming separated from their hoseline in an IDLH. How about you all?
    Nor have I, but the idea is for us never to have to. But if it happens, you need each and every survivability technique possible- hence my no vote. I dare say that were I still a Union FF and the Chief wanted to change over I would fight it through the union. Yes, I do think it's that important.
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    Aside from a quick make / break, which is pretty inconsequential with attack hose, what would be the upside to going to a completely new fitting that is not similar to your neighbors and is basically non-standard to the fire service? A company I am familiar with packs their 1 3/4 attack line on reels with these couplings, useless just begins to describe that set up.

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    At my previous employer, all of out preconnected Master Stream Devices had Stortz on them. All were 3" DJ hose. Handlines still standard couplings.
    A Fire Chief has ONLY 1 JOB and that's to take care of his fireman. EVERYTHING else falls under this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84 View Post
    A company I am familiar with packs their 1 3/4 attack line on reels with these couplings, useless just begins to describe that set up.
    In your opinion, what makes it useless? Lack of interoperability, or something else?
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    Lack of interoperability, inability to shoulder load and carry to deploy are a good start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halligan84 View Post
    Lack of interoperability, inability to shoulder load and carry to deploy are a good start.
    Ok, just wondered. We have a nearby department that has two 1.75" 200' reels on each of their pumper/tankers, and seem to like them. I've never operated one, however.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    For the purposes of debate, aren't Storz attack lines the standard in Europe? Yes, I do realize that their fire attack methods differ than ours.

    I'd be more concerned about the size of the coupling in an interior fire attack than being able to find your way out. That brings me to another thought: I've never talked to anyone that actually had to identify couplings after becoming separated from their hoseline in an IDLH. How about you all?
    I have never met anyone either that was lost, found a line and coupling, figured out which way it pointed (while having head between knees/kissing it... At this moment, sitting at a PC, have to think about the shape/orientation and which way it points. In the heat of moment, when it was life depending, I rather doubt would work out. One of those great theories. And a Union issue? Please.

    Couplings would be larger but the snag issue has been address by industry in Erup. Desiged so will open a door that closes on a line. Don't know if on wide spread use. I have snagged std attack line couplings on corners furniture etc. This style looks like less like that a std NH to do so.

    How many not "standard" (NH) attack line couplings are in use in the US. Certainly Hundreds of FD in dozens of different patterns.

    Any EU FF that can comment on Storz attack lines it would be appreciated. Particularily if have exchanged with US FD where used our stuff. Maybe Mr. Grimwood is around.

    You know Obama really really really likes for us to go EU. That's supposed to be good enough for anyone isn't it? Maybe he'll print some more $ for a bonus on my AFG if I go the EU way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    I have never met anyone either that was lost, found a line and coupling, figured out which way it pointed (while having head between knees/kissing it... At this moment, sitting at a PC, have to think about the shape/orientation and which way it points. In the heat of moment, when it was life depending, I rather doubt would work out. One of those great theories. And a Union issue? Please.

    Well, I HAVE met someone who found his way out using the couplings. The world is more than your 40 acres, or whatever, in Iowa. Psssst...it's really pretty easy to figure out, the female coupling leads out.

    A safety and health issue is a Union issue on a career FD. You may not understand that, you may not like it, too freaking bad.



    Couplings would be larger but the snag issue has been address by industry in Erup. Desiged so will open a door that closes on a line. Don't know if on wide spread use. I have snagged std attack line couplings on corners furniture etc. This style looks like less like that a std NH to do so.

    It also looks HUGE I bet that loads really nice in a standard US hose bed. Most European hose is rolled and racked or pulled on a hose reel.
    How many not "standard" (NH) attack line couplings are in use in the US. Certainly Hundreds of FD in dozens of different patterns.

    Generally, areas that use other than NST threads tend to use them across the board in an area. If this one FD buys attack lines with storz couplings they will be orphans and unable to hook to anyone else. BRILLIANT!

    Any EU FF that can comment on Storz attack lines it would be appreciated. Particularily if have exchanged with US FD where used our stuff. Maybe Mr. Grimwood is around.

    Again since they store, carry and advance lines differently than we do in the US how would you do a fair comparison?

    You know Obama really really really likes for us to go EU. That's supposed to be good enough for anyone isn't it? Maybe he'll print some more $ for a bonus on my AFG if I go the EU way.

    You really need a hobby because this last part of your post is just idiotic rambling totally off topic.
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    so whats really the benefit of storz? That the couplings are sexless? I haven't had any times where I thought "Gosh Golly, I wish I had a female/female or male/male adapter so I could make this attack line work." Coupling the hose together doesn't take that long either

    Given all the potential drawbacks, what exactly is gained from the switch?

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    Although I am now a recent retiree, my former dept uses storz exclusively
    on all attack and supply lines.The have never been any issues with attack lines coming uncoupled, or snagging up on corners. As far as supply goes, yes when a car drives over it...especially front wheel drive cars when one wheel loses traction going over it
    and the coupling is in between the 2 wheels.otherwise NO.

    The dept has over 66 engines and does 100,000 runs a year....we don't have any quints running.

    I wouldn't be worried at all about going to storz.

    Don
    Last edited by don120; 04-11-2011 at 05:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by don120 View Post
    Although I am now a recent retiree, my former dept uses storz exclusively
    on all attack and supply lines.The have never been any issues with attack lines coming uncoupled, or snagging up on corners. As far as supply goes, yes when a car drives over it...especially front wheel drive cars when one wheel loses traction going over it
    and the coupling is in between the 2 wheels.otherwise NO.

    The dept has over 66 engines and does 100,000 runs a year....we don't have any quints running.

    I wouldn't be worried at all about going to storz.

    Don

    I think the situation you are describing is far different than the one neiowa is in. He is a member of a small rural volunteer fire department that relies on mutual aid for larger incidents. A department with 66 engines most likely rarely if EVER calls for mutual aid so the fact you use equipment that is not interoperability friendly is inconsequential.

    An example of interoperability while still being locally radical is the fact that my volly FD uses 2, 3, and 5 inch hose. The 2 inch hose has 1 1/2 inch couplings, the 3 inch has 2 1/2 inch couplings, and the 5 inch has 5 inch storz. All of those coupling sizes and styles are common in my area.
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    I really do not see the advantage on a preconected attack line. They are ment to be able to build a attack line quickly. In Europe building construction is mostly masonary. The first line pulled is a high pressure (600) psi 25mm or 1 inch line, aka the booster reel capable of flowing up to 100 gpm. This can hold or exinguish the fire, if the fire conditions warant the 1 1/2" or the 2 1/2" are built. Some of the newer engines and quints over there have a deployabe crate of 1 1/2 hose the carries about 150 feet of attack line but still needs to be hooked up to the pump. I can see no real advantage in storz couplings with preconnected attack lines.

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    I made no mention of precons. Or crosslays. Main area of interest is 2-1/2" (or perhaps will go to 3").

    Likely the only time will ever be replacing 100% of hose so going to look at options. Same for pagers and portables. And LDH.

    Occassional the EU types have a better idea. In theory, I suppose same might be true of Wi. Storz for LDH is certainly one example of a better idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    I made no mention of precons. Or crosslays. Main area of interest is 2-1/2" (or perhaps will go to 3").

    Likely the only time will ever be replacing 100% of hose so going to look at options. Same for pagers and portables. And LDH.

    Occassional the EU types have a better idea. In theory, I suppose same might be true of Wi. Storz for LDH is certainly one example of a better idea.

    You are a pretty funny guy. You have a pattern of coming to FH.com with an idea, asking for opinions, and then getting either defensive, or ****ed off, if people have a differing opinion.

    Frankly, I couldn't care less what you use for hose couplings in BF Iowa. Hell Dude, if you want to buy storz couplings on hose that all of your neighbors have NST couplings on have the balls to just do it. Most here told you why they wouldn't do it and you countered what everyone said, seems like your mind is made up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    In your opinion, what makes it useless? Lack of interoperability, or something else?
    `

    My previous department had much of our 1 3/4" on reels, with storz couplings on all of our new engines starting in 1991.

    We carried 2 reels of 400' plus 2 preconnected 200' 1 3/4" lines.

    The preconnts were pulled when we needed 200'. The reels were pulled for 100' trash and car lines, or attack lines longer than 200' dcuring the winter or for marina operations.

    They actually worked very well as we had flexible length lines easily accessable.

    As far as the storz couplings, we never had one incident where they decoupled and thier slightly larger size was never an issue. In made lengthing a line a very easy task as you never had to worry about male-female.
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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    Have an AFG to replace all our 1-1/2" and 2-1/2". Much of it 20-30 years old. Will be going to 1-3/4". Perhaps 3" Also buying 5"S for supply.

    Anyone using, or have mutual aid neighbors using, smaller Storz on attack lines? Feedback?
    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    I made no mention of precons. Or crosslays. Main area of interest is 2-1/2" (or perhaps will go to 3").

    Although you did not type "preconnect", your first post sure led everyone down that path.......

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    In my former dept. we don't use pre-connects. We would pull everything off the back...because we ALWAYS pull the engine past the fire building and leave the front of the building for positioning ladder trucks.

    No tools required to break down and pick up after the fire...a lot faster which
    is especially nice at -30 in the winter.

    L.A., I remember reading once that you are a Vermont native.I started teaching at the North Country International Fire School over 20 years ago
    and there are few departments around there that use reels and storz couplings quite successfully for attack lines.

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by don120 View Post
    In my former dept. we don't use pre-connects. We would pull everything off the back...because we ALWAYS pull the engine past the fire building and leave the front of the building for positioning ladder trucks.

    No tools required to break down and pick up after the fire...a lot faster which
    is especially nice at -30 in the winter.

    L.A., I remember reading once that you are a Vermont native.I started teaching at the North Country International Fire School over 20 years ago
    and there are few departments around there that use reels and storz couplings quite successfully for attack lines.

    Don
    Not a native, but attended college just north of St. Johnsbury, then spent time in Ludlow, North Clarendon and with Essex Town and Colchester Center in the Burlington area. Basically lived most of my post college life in VT with the exception of a couple of years back in NY and in MA.

    Attended NCIFS many times and actually was an instructor there twice in the late 90's and 2001 teaching public education and juvenile firesetting intervention classes. Was also an instructor at the Chittenden County school several times.

    Essex Town and Colchester Center had storz couplings and attack lines on reels back when I joined Essex Town in '83. At the time Essex Town was using all 2" attack lines and Colchester Center was using 2" to a limited extent. Both were still using preconnects as well.

    After I joined the Center in '88, they switched back to 1 3/4" as we found the 2" too cumbersome but wanted to upgrade from 1 1/2", but kept using the storz couplings on the new 1 3/4" as we found them quite handy.

    Underhill-Jericho, and I beleive South Burlington as well, started using reels for attack lines at some point in there as well.

    I found it to be quite handy when unplowed driveways or snowbanks forced you to use longer attack lines.
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    There you go. Doesn't happen unless in a Wi city. Tell us all about LA next.

    What coupling Storz size are they using with the various size hose?

    Were they using with or without locks?

    Not using on 2-1/2"? That seems to be the most likely application is our area as much of the extra 2-1/2" and 3" is carried as rolls or donut rolls (thus the logic for sexless couplings).
    Last edited by neiowa; 04-13-2011 at 05:12 PM.

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    Fyred hit a good point in a separate thread... If you are purchasing new hose lays, consider going to 100' sections (especially in your supply lines 2 1/2s or 3s). You have fewer couplings to mess with.

    That said, 3" is a pretty decent supply line. It can be a real B for an attack line...just sayin.

    2 1/2" is a pretty decent attack line. It can suck as a supply line...just sayin again.


    I have at least one monitor outfitted in 3" storz. It is a rim rider for industrial tank mounting. Anyway, Never had a problem with the coupling...

    More to the point, do what is gonna work for your department. But Fyred might be right, if you rely on mutual aid, then you probably need to be inter-operable.
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