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  1. #21
    Forum Member RyanK63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    FWD,

    Thanks for your post...I'm glad to see that your Dept. has got it so well organized...and glad to see that out of your Junior Program so many made the transition into the FF brotherhood...obviously something is being done right there..

    I may have come across to strong, BUT I still believe that in this day and age, where FD's are having companies cut, equipment shortages, staffing issues etc. that any Dept. could JUSTIFY to their tax paying citizens WHY kids are being "Issued" with pagers, radios, bunker gear etc....and WHY are they taking the jobs of Firefighters at a fire scene?....can you see how that could directly effect HOW a Community and Council could use that AGAINST a Fire Department?....they could say " hey, we don;t NEED to hire those 5 extra Firefighters!...we have these Juniors that will do it for FREE!"...
    OH, and look, the Budget Increase the Department just put in for...wel IF they have all this money to buy extra pagers and gear for these juniors, well, I guess the DEPARTMENT really doesn;'t need that budget increase!"

    can you see how that could happen?


    AND I did clearly say that a Junior Program that taught the kids First aid/CPR, the basics of FF'ing and SOME controlled training, you know fire service ropes and knots, THEORY of fire attack etc...could be of great benifit to the kids and the community in general

    BUT can anyone seriously DENY that there are countless posts in this section were kids are actively complaining that THEY are'nt being allowed to go interior?..that THEY ARE manning hoselines at actual calls?... Child Labour laws or not, simply put..these kids are doing things that they simply shouldn't in the first place...THEN complain about not doing MORE in a public forum!

    and for ANDREW R,

    SURE anyone COULD buy a pager or radio and look up the info...BUT IF YOU or anyone else trys to USE those radios without being a Recognized and Authorized user....then YOU can face federal repercussions..simply put, LIKE the Military radios, they are PROTECTED Frequencies...meaning that not everyone can use them, they ARE NOT PUBLIC ACCESS...and having an attitude of "well I'll just go and AGAIN do what I LIKE, and buy my own radio WITHOUT written approval of the Fire Chief, can and should land you in SERIOUS trouble, same with a pager...

    Surely you can see how having kids operating on a fire ground or FD frequency could cause severe issues for Incident Command and Dispatch...the way I see it...if Juniors want to use "radios"..well buy them some Motorola "talk abouts" or something in the public frequency range

    I am simply trying to point out some of the "ISSUES" with the actions, wants and complaints from these Juniors....obviously things that for the most part, can;t seem to see......
    I can totally understand where you're coming from now that you explained it a little more. Yes juniors should not be given brand new anything. Nothing wrong with 2nd hand stuff that's still in fair to good condition. When I was a junior, I took what was given to me and asked for nothing more, tried to learn as much as possible in a safe way where I wasn't getting in the way of anything. I do agree that juniors should NOT have radios. That is one thing that will cause more harm than good. You made the point that juniors should not be able to buy radios/pagers without written approval, my department runs that way, and so far it's worked out great. You made many valid points, just wish you weren't so harsh on the kid at first. Stay safe out there.


  2. #22
    Forum Member nr9306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    FWD,

    Thanks for your post...I'm glad to see that your Dept. has got it so well organized...and glad to see that out of your Junior Program so many made the transition into the FF brotherhood...obviously something is being done right there..

    I may have come across to strong, BUT I still believe that in this day and age, where FD's are having companies cut, equipment shortages, staffing issues etc. that any Dept. could JUSTIFY to their tax paying citizens WHY kids are being "Issued" with pagers, radios, bunker gear etc....and WHY are they taking the jobs of Firefighters at a fire scene?....can you see how that could directly effect HOW a Community and Council could use that AGAINST a Fire Department?....they could say " hey, we don;t NEED to hire those 5 extra Firefighters!...we have these Juniors that will do it for FREE!"...
    OH, and look, the Budget Increase the Department just put in for...wel IF they have all this money to buy extra pagers and gear for these juniors, well, I guess the DEPARTMENT really doesn;'t need that budget increase!"

    can you see how that could happen?


    AND I did clearly say that a Junior Program that taught the kids First aid/CPR, the basics of FF'ing and SOME controlled training, you know fire service ropes and knots, THEORY of fire attack etc...could be of great benifit to the kids and the community in general

    BUT can anyone seriously DENY that there are countless posts in this section were kids are actively complaining that THEY are'nt being allowed to go interior?..that THEY ARE manning hoselines at actual calls?... Child Labour laws or not, simply put..these kids are doing things that they simply shouldn't in the first place...THEN complain about not doing MORE in a public forum!

    and for ANDREW R,

    SURE anyone COULD buy a pager or radio and look up the info...BUT IF YOU or anyone else trys to USE those radios without being a Recognized and Authorized user....then YOU can face federal repercussions..simply put, LIKE the Military radios, they are PROTECTED Frequencies...meaning that not everyone can use them, they ARE NOT PUBLIC ACCESS...and having an attitude of "well I'll just go and AGAIN do what I LIKE, and buy my own radio WITHOUT written approval of the Fire Chief, can and should land you in SERIOUS trouble, same with a pager...

    Surely you can see how having kids operating on a fire ground or FD frequency could cause severe issues for Incident Command and Dispatch...the way I see it...if Juniors want to use "radios"..well buy them some Motorola "talk abouts" or something in the public frequency range

    I am simply trying to point out some of the "ISSUES" with the actions, wants and complaints from these Juniors....obviously things that for the most part, can;t seem to see......
    Actually at our department, we are pretty much self funded and volunteer. I am a junior. I go to calls. I have a pager, full turnout gear and a mini-plate for my vehicle. I get gear that is available, it is only new if we don't have any. I do all the in house training like everyone else and even do some outside of the department and it is encouraged and payed for by the department. I can run any call but medical (some weird in-house thing that I am hoping to get an exception for if I get my EMT-FR). I do the crap that no one else wants to do and frees a more qualified person to do the crap that they are qualified for. I do things like rehab, accountability, hydrants, assist with ladders (not in an IDLH situation) and I am in the process of being pumps qualified. I also do accident cleanup and gofer tools for extrication. I provide assistance to free up the more seniors so they can go into ILDH environments. I do not go interior for obvious reasons and I have not heard of any junior or explorer group who does. And because it is a volunteer department, turnout can sometimes be an issue, my presence is usually welcome. So I don't see why Juniors/explorers should not have gear and pagers. WE GET PAGERS AND GEAR BECAUSE WE HELP AT THE FIREGROUND AND THE DEPARTMENT WANTS US TO LEARN SO THAT WHEN WE GET ON THE REGULAR DEPARTMENT, WE KNOW WHAT THE HELL WE'RE DOING. SO STOP B****ING AT JUNIORS/EXPLORERS WHO ARE JUST TRYING TO LEARN AND DO MORE IN THE FIRE SERVICE.
    Last edited by nr9306; 05-07-2011 at 09:18 PM.

  3. #23
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    Firstly, it;s not just bitching.......
    It seems like several people here just cannot see how incredibly dangerous and foolish it is to have kids "working" on a fire scene...

    You say that YOU do accountability?...do you have any formal training on it?...do you understand the liability involved?..YOU are responsible of keeping track of everyones whereabouts, actions, tasks etc right?....SO, as a "Junior" YOU are going to be able to deal with a high stress, pannic ridden situation like a MAYDAY? or a RIT activation?....B.S....Do you understand that in that type of event YOU, Your DEPT. and IC will be HUNG OUT TO DRY?...If a FF got killed or injured while YOU where at the "accountability" board, the Lawyers and prosectuters and investigators would chew you all up.....PERIOD...

    AGAIN, YOU, as a Junior, clearly just said that YOU WANT TO CHANGE the rules of your Dept. for YOUR wants....Obviously the FD doesn;t want kids dealing with traumas and med calls for a reason..why should they change the rules to please you?....this is the same sort of B.S. that I was refering to...thank you SO much for re highlighting the points I was making...

    Take it easy...enjoy being a kid...worry about "knowing what the hell your doing" WHEN you get hired and TRAINED as a Fire Fighter...cause whatever you "Learn" now, won;t mean crap in another Department..you still get trained, learn THEIR way of doing things.....

    Stick to learning things that CAN be carried over....CPR/DeFib/F.A. etc...

    I just have a very hard time thinking that I am the only one that sees the incredibly high level of risk and liability having Juniors anywhere near a fire scene...

    and justifying it by saying that "You do the crap that no one else wants to do" is GARBAGE...if a FF is assigned a task, any task...than they should complete it quickly efficiently and get on with it.......even or especially the crappy details.......

    You know, FWD and Ryan K seem to have understood what I was saying...I even appologized for maybe voicing what I wanted to say to strongly......then low and behold another "wonderboy Junior" shows up and tells me to shut up...then exempilifies EXACTLY what I was saying in the first place.......Nothing more than a Junior WHACKER in the making from what I can see........NR9036, I can;t see you doing well in Fire Service if your already bucking the system and trying to get IT to fit YOU......YOU should be serving in IT for the public.......

    Keep it up......the Juniors/explorers program sure is doing wonders in producing attitudes like some on here......

    TO those Juniors that at least understood ( didn;t say agree with) my points, than keep at it.....stay on the RIGHT path and mind set.......and good luck...

  4. #24
    Forum Member CGITCH's Avatar
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    Disclaimer: My official title is auxiliary. I am 18 years old, I've been in the "auxiliary" role since I was 16. Our departments by-laws don't allow full membership until age 21. I'm FFI & Haz-Mat Ops certified. With that said, here's my input.

    I started FFI class when I was 16, wasn't allowed to test until I turned 18, which was a year and a half after that. As a junior/auxiliary/whateveryouwannacallit, I didn't ride calls till after I finished my FFI class. I'm also a member in a small, close-knit community and my dad has been a member on the same department for 35 years. Not saying I was an exception or anything, but all of the other FF's new me. I was issued a pager about a year ago, and have been responding to calls since. I also leave school for calls (I'm a senior, with 4 days left). The only reason I do this is because my principal literally asked me if I wanted to, and told me as long as I kept in good scholastic standing I'm good to go. Of course, I've held up to his standards. Our department does only fire, no EMS, but since I've turned 18, I joined our local ambulance service as a volunteer. I'm one of three cross-trained FF/EMS on our department, one of which is another auxiliary member, and the other only drives for the ambulance, he does no time in the back. The other night we had a bad 10-50, multiple ejections and another victim needing extrication. The fire department always beats the ambulance to calls, so I would be the first EMS person on scene. (I'm not certified to any EMT or FR level. I've only had in house training and CPR.) I had the other guys in the back of the rescue asking ME what to do when we got there and how I would need them to assist me in stabilizing these victims as much as possible until ambulances arrived. These other guys basically put me in charge of these victims until I had more highly trained EMS people arrive.

    Now, I understand this is only one incident, and one case. I also understand that every department is different. My department holds our "auxiliary" members to as high of if not higher expectations as they hold regular firefighters. One a scene, they expect us to operate as any other firefighter who can't do certain things. We have regular maintenance schedules like regular members. We have attendance requirements, and we are trained to as high of level as regular members. As far as gear, we are issued the same stuff as regular firefighters. We were issued spare gear, but essentially the same stuff as regular members. I got a pager, no radio, but regular FF's don't have portables either. They are on the trucks.

    In conclusion, my department is very different from any other one with a junior program. A program was developed that fits the department very well. Maybe this is an example of how successful junior program can be run.

  5. #25
    Forum Member nr9306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    Firstly, it;s not just bitching.......
    It seems like several people here just cannot see how incredibly dangerous and foolish it is to have kids "working" on a fire scene...

    You say that YOU do accountability?...do you have any formal training on it?...do you understand the liability involved?..YOU are responsible of keeping track of everyones whereabouts, actions, tasks etc right?....SO, as a "Junior" YOU are going to be able to deal with a high stress, pannic ridden situation like a MAYDAY? or a RIT activation?....B.S....Do you understand that in that type of event YOU, Your DEPT. and IC will be HUNG OUT TO DRY?...If a FF got killed or injured while YOU where at the "accountability" board, the Lawyers and prosectuters and investigators would chew you all up.....PERIOD...

    AGAIN, YOU, as a Junior, clearly just said that YOU WANT TO CHANGE the rules of your Dept. for YOUR wants....Obviously the FD doesn;t want kids dealing with traumas and med calls for a reason..why should they change the rules to please you?....this is the same sort of B.S. that I was refering to...thank you SO much for re highlighting the points I was making...

    Take it easy...enjoy being a kid...worry about "knowing what the hell your doing" WHEN you get hired and TRAINED as a Fire Fighter...cause whatever you "Learn" now, won;t mean crap in another Department..you still get trained, learn THEIR way of doing things.....

    Stick to learning things that CAN be carried over....CPR/DeFib/F.A. etc...

    I just have a very hard time thinking that I am the only one that sees the incredibly high level of risk and liability having Juniors anywhere near a fire scene...

    and justifying it by saying that "You do the crap that no one else wants to do" is GARBAGE...if a FF is assigned a task, any task...than they should complete it quickly efficiently and get on with it.......even or especially the crappy details.......

    You know, FWD and Ryan K seem to have understood what I was saying...I even appologized for maybe voicing what I wanted to say to strongly......then low and behold another "wonderboy Junior" shows up and tells me to shut up...then exempilifies EXACTLY what I was saying in the first place.......Nothing more than a Junior WHACKER in the making from what I can see........NR9036, I can;t see you doing well in Fire Service if your already bucking the system and trying to get IT to fit YOU......YOU should be serving in IT for the public.......

    Keep it up......the Juniors/explorers program sure is doing wonders in producing attitudes like some on here......

    TO those Juniors that at least understood ( didn;t say agree with) my points, than keep at it.....stay on the RIGHT path and mind set.......and good luck...
    I get in house training if that is what you are wondering. State laws allow me to do accountability, so if the legislature thinks its ok, than I don't see a liability problem. I don't suppose you are a lawyer who has memorized the state laws, if so please tell me and I will inform my chief. Our department encourages all the training and experience I can get. That is one of the reasons they like the junior program, so that when I turn 18 and get on the regular dept., most of the necessary training to become active has already been completed and there is experience on top of it. I would also be the first junior EMT on on the dept. so I would not be just changing the rules for the hell of it, I would have training and would be useful, clearly something you don't think would be true just because I'm 17. Forgive me for being a little defensive but you have struck a nerve. The junior program did not produce my attitude, YOU DID.
    Rapid Intervention is a contradiction in terms. Nothing is rapid on a fireground.

  6. #26
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nr9306 View Post
    Forgive me for being a little defensive but you have struck a nerve. The junior program did not produce my attitude, YOU DID.
    He might have an attitude but you have an enormous chip on your shoulder. You need to learn when to close your pie hole when the time is right, and right now is the time. Just let it go, he said his piece and you said yours. Use this as a learning experience. Remember the number one most important rule for a Junior: Close Mouth. Open Ears. When we want to know your opinion, we will give it to you.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  7. #27
    Forum Member nr9306's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    He might have an attitude but you have an enormous chip on your shoulder. You need to learn when to close your pie hole when the time is right, and right now is the time. Just let it go, he said his piece and you said yours. Use this as a learning experience. Remember the number one most important rule for a Junior: Close Mouth. Open Ears. When we want to know your opinion, we will give it to you.
    Sorry I lost my cool, I just get defensive when someone says juniors/explorers are worthless and should not go near anything fire-related except a book. That is all that I have to say.
    Rapid Intervention is a contradiction in terms. Nothing is rapid on a fireground.

  8. #28
    Forum Member FireInTheShire's Avatar
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    ....wow this got really out of hand....

    ....Back on topic....

    We issue our Jr members full gear (coat, pants, boots, Metro 660 helmet (red), hood, structure gloves, utility gloves, safety glasses, and MSA mask (after fit testing)(the older gear that we have in storage), and a uniform t-shirt. If needed (funeral, parade, etc.) we LOAN them a dress shirt with badges etc, but it must be returned after the event.

    Now that being said, we don't issue radios/pagers of any kind until they become firefighters, we also strongly recommend to them that they not buy any of the extra goodies for their gear etc (although if they feel they must they can).

    Also before ANY gear is issued to any new members (Jr and any other new member) (except the station t-shirt) the following must be met:
    --Must take and pass 4 core classes (CPR, Infection Control, CISM, and
    Haz-Mat Awareness)
    --After passing the 4 core classes the Jr member is then sent for Physical

    Once they are medically cleared and have passed the 4 core classes they receive their gear. And once they complete the "Red Hat Training Manual" and pass a test with the Training Officer they are aloud to ride if space permits and are aloud to assist the driver on the fire scene. (The riding status of any Red Hat can be pulled at any time by Line Officers / Engine Officers / Training Officers)

  9. #29
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    I live in NJ they dont let you join the dept. before the age of 18.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    OK,

    I find the fact that ANY Juniors/Explorers or whatever you all are...get issued ANYTHING AT ALL absolutely incredible!......

    Bottom line..YOU all are little teenyboppers.NOT FIREFIGHTERS!..when YOU are 18 AND pass the testing/get hired on..then you can be issued with equipment.

    There is NO reason for having anyone under 18 having gear at all...you shouldn;t be riding apparatus, NOT being at ANY emergency scene period..certainly NOT responding to "calls" at any time, let alone by hearing it on a Department pager or 2 way radio..(again it;s rediculous to allow a minor access to controlled frequency FD radios)...

    This has gotten WAY out of hand. The original idea behind "junior's" was to be able to teach them first Aid, teach them the basics ( BOOKlearning) of Firefighting and allow for SOME hands on experience in CONTROLLED TRAINING SITUATIONS. Not to have a bunch of "super dupper "trained" Junior's running around a fire scene...God forbid someone gets hurt or killed by this idiotic "experience".

    You know, in Ontario Canada they actually banned even the COLLEGE Pre Fire Service Co-Op placements...and those are FULL TIME, FULLY QUALIFIED College Students!.

    So "kiddies"...save your money, your a wannabe, you all don;t need any N5A Helmets, hell you don;t even need gear..

    So really maybe just keep it quiet..cause the FD's are full of people that are ****ed about getting Full Time FF positions cut and general understaffing...SO, how do you think they will feel if a bunch of kids are essentially "taking their jobs"?

    You know, I;m sorry, but I;ve seen COUNTLESS posts about this kind of BS by a bunch of whiney kids, complaining about "not being ALLOWED" to do what THEY want, that THEIR GEAR isn;t as good as a REAL FF's..enough is enough.

    A Career Fire Officer..and one that has seen enough of these kids crap..









    I totally dissagree with this guy. Junior's should be issued turnout gear. It doesnt have to be nice gear but good enough to do the job. Get your explorers into a fundamentals class and get them graduated from that, and they can help ya out on a call, filling cylinders, grabbing ya tools, and other. I was issued nice turn out gear and a pager. I'm still an explorer but i'm certified and all the way up to Firefighter 1. So I do work on a call as an explorer and I know just as much as any "firefight" who is 18 on my departments.

  11. #31
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    Coat, pants, hood, gloves, helmet, safety vest, wildland jumpsuit, wildland helmet with neck shroud, leather gloves, pager, and other miscellaneous items.(Note: nearly all the stuff I have recieved is second-hand so it really doesn't cost my department to get me gear)

    Stay safe
    Last edited by JakeT59; 07-27-2011 at 05:16 PM.

  12. #32
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    boots, pants, coat, hood, gloves (no mask until 16). orange morning pride Ben II's on the helmet. (a few people get carins 660C's)

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    OK,

    I find the fact that ANY Juniors/Explorers or whatever you all are...get issued ANYTHING AT ALL absolutely incredible!......

    Bottom line..YOU all are little teenyboppers.NOT FIREFIGHTERS!..when YOU are 18 AND pass the testing/get hired on..then you can be issued with equipment.

    There is NO reason for having anyone under 18 having gear at all...you shouldn;t be riding apparatus, NOT being at ANY emergency scene period..certainly NOT responding to "calls" at any time, let alone by hearing it on a Department pager or 2 way radio..(again it;s rediculous to allow a minor access to controlled frequency FD radios)...

    This has gotten WAY out of hand. The original idea behind "junior's" was to be able to teach them first Aid, teach them the basics ( BOOKlearning) of Firefighting and allow for SOME hands on experience in CONTROLLED TRAINING SITUATIONS. Not to have a bunch of "super dupper "trained" Junior's running around a fire scene...God forbid someone gets hurt or killed by this idiotic "experience".

    You know, in Ontario Canada they actually banned even the COLLEGE Pre Fire Service Co-Op placements...and those are FULL TIME, FULLY QUALIFIED College Students!.

    So "kiddies"...save your money, your a wannabe, you all don;t need any N5A Helmets, hell you don;t even need gear..

    So really maybe just keep it quiet..cause the FD's are full of people that are ****ed about getting Full Time FF positions cut and general understaffing...SO, how do you think they will feel if a bunch of kids are essentially "taking their jobs"?

    You know, I;m sorry, but I;ve seen COUNTLESS posts about this kind of BS by a bunch of whiney kids, complaining about "not being ALLOWED" to do what THEY want, that THEIR GEAR isn;t as good as a REAL FF's..enough is enough.

    A Career Fire Officer..and one that has seen enough of these kids crap..
    I tell ya, It is because of ****** Bags like you that I have stayed away from this forum for a while. As far as I am concerned, I think that these are wonderful departments that issue their Juniors gear,pagers,etc... At least if you make these kids feel a part of the department you are keeping them out of other things. Maybe someday you will understand the importance of a Junior if you are on scene somewhere and something happens to you and one of these "worthless teenyboppers" might be the only one who comes to your rescue. Chew on that one.... We have *******s like you in our department too, they are usually the old fat guys that can't even fit in bunker gear anymore let alone fight a fire.....

  14. #34
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    We are issued a second hand set of gear (coat, helmet, bunker pants, boots, rescue gloves, safety glasses,). We are also issued an alpha pager, new fire gloves, and a class B work uniform.
    Kyle - FireSquad911

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    Our Explorer Program issues Full Bunker gear minus a mask. Aside from our 360s Helmets and Fuel for our 3 training Engines and 1 Truck, there is no cost to the department, and helmets get reused after someone leaves. While intense, Station1FFs response was exceptional. I don't know why there is a problem with explorers, every explorer I have had--I was the Explorer leader in my post--has been excellent. 4 of my explorers went to a House fire, at this fire, they didn't take a FF's job, they just made it so that trained paid FF's could do the harder parts of the job. I agree when someone said learn to shut up. I personally learn best by being taught, drilling, then seeing it in action. All with my mouth shut eyes and ears open.

  16. #36
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    As far as what we issue to our Junior members, helmet, bunkers, gloves and boots. If we have extra they will receive a pager generally one of the older ones as we try to get the membership that has been around longer to get the new pagers so well exchange them out and give our Juniors the old ones and our older membership a new pager. But thats besides the point.

  17. #37
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    Full bunker gear, A blue helmet and a pager 6 months after acceptance.

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