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  1. #1
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    Smile Tanker narrative questions

    Hey guys first of all thanks for all your help and information regarding narratives and other questions. You have been extremely helpful through this grant process. I have a few questions about what i should do in this year's narrative. I would like to get a few opinions and make my decision based on what some of you think is best.

    #1 How important is it to state that your FD is 100% NIMS compliant?
    #2 I got two bids from dealers regarding new tankers and one qoute was
    300k and the other was 275k. How much should i ask AFG for? what is the limit on tanker awards?
    #3 Should i state that we have secured the 5% match already?
    #4 Should i state if we have any money in a vehicle replacement fund?
    #5 Which section should i state that we have a Driver Training Program
    #6 How much focus should be put on mutual aid we provide and number of times we provide it?

    Anyway those are some questions in my mind for now. Im sure there will be more to come. Thanks in advance for your help.


  2. #2
    Forum Member islandfire03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazing212 View Post
    Hey guys first of all thanks for all your help and information regarding narratives and other questions. You have been extremely helpful through this grant process. I have a few questions about what i should do in this year's narrative. I would like to get a few opinions and make my decision based on what some of you think is best.

    #1 How important is it to state that your FD is 100% NIMS compliant?
    #2 I got two bids from dealers regarding new tankers and one qoute was
    300k and the other was 275k. How much should i ask AFG for? what is the limit on tanker awards?
    #3 Should i state that we have secured the 5% match already?
    #4 Should i state if we have any money in a vehicle replacement fund?
    #5 Which section should i state that we have a Driver Training Program
    #6 How much focus should be put on mutual aid we provide and number of times we provide it?

    Anyway those are some questions in my mind for now. Im sure there will be more to come. Thanks in advance for your help.
    1. Nims compliancy is required
    2. Way more money than tanker awards have been in the past years. Average has been around 200k seen a few @ 220k for 3000 gallon
    3. yes you want to tell them you have your match or will have it by the POP.
    4. With bids that high you should up your share to 20% If you have substantial funds in a dedicated reserve account for vehicle replacement you cannot neglect to mention them.
    5. In your explanation of how you provide NPFA driver training and Physicals for all operators.
    6. Yes it is part of the cost benefit of getting a new vehicle as you are assisting other departments. Provide numbers of automatic aid and mutual aid numbers.
    Last edited by islandfire03; 04-14-2011 at 10:01 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazing212 View Post
    Hey guys first of all thanks for all your help and information regarding narratives and other questions. You have been extremely helpful through this grant process. I have a few questions about what i should do in this year's narrative. I would like to get a few opinions and make my decision based on what some of you think is best.

    #1 How important is it to state that your FD is 100% NIMS compliant?
    #2 I got two bids from dealers regarding new tankers and one qoute was
    300k and the other was 275k. How much should i ask AFG for? what is the limit on tanker awards?
    #3 Should i state that we have secured the 5% match already?
    #4 Should i state if we have any money in a vehicle replacement fund?
    #5 Which section should i state that we have a Driver Training Program
    #6 How much focus should be put on mutual aid we provide and number of times we provide it?

    Anyway those are some questions in my mind for now. Im sure there will be more to come. Thanks in advance for your help.
    Hey Tim, you are already getting a step ahead of last yearís app by asking advice from people who know. Lots of people post here that do this stuff for a living so if you get part of the way in it and realize that the app just doesnít look right then you may want to contact one of them to look over it and put there two cents on it. Like I told you before no one knows your department like you do but If it were me I believe after doing the best job you can do then go ahead and get someone like Kurt, Brian and doctor sly look over it and see if you missed anything before you submit it. Although that is how they make a living they sometime help people for free.
    I told you islandfire would be a good one to talk too and ask for help.
    Take care and good luck.
    dfd701

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazing212 View Post
    Hey guys first of all thanks for all your help and information regarding narratives and other questions. You have been extremely helpful through this grant process. I have a few questions about what i should do in this year's narrative. I would like to get a few opinions and make my decision based on what some of you think is best.

    #1 How important is it to state that your FD is 100% NIMS compliant?
    #2 I got two bids from dealers regarding new tankers and one qoute was
    300k and the other was 275k. How much should i ask AFG for? what is the limit on tanker awards?
    #3 Should i state that we have secured the 5% match already?
    #4 Should i state if we have any money in a vehicle replacement fund?
    #5 Which section should i state that we have a Driver Training Program
    #6 How much focus should be put on mutual aid we provide and number of times we provide it?

    Anyway those are some questions in my mind for now. Im sure there will be more to come. Thanks in advance for your help.
    1) Yes and to what level.

    2) The max. allowed for a tanker has been $200K. The issue is the pricing you have is too high and 1 of 2 things will occur if use those figures. 1) You are computer DJ'ed, then it does not go to peer review. 2) It goes to peer review and the price is reduced at tech review. The most likely scenario will be a CDJ as funding for vehicles has been cut significantly meaning increased competition.

    3) Yes

    4) My suggestion would be to use the vehicle replacement fund to reduce the amount of the request to increase your chances of being awarded. The computer only sees what you are asking for not what you have available to reduce the cost. So you want to take the amount off on the front end. In the narrative you will explain that the actual cost is this, but the department is using its vehicle replacement funds to reduce the request to this with the department picking up for ex. 20% of the project vs. 5%. Remember you are still responsible for the 5% match on the reduced cost as well.

    Ex.

    Total cost $250,000. Vehicle replacement fund $75,000

    $250,000
    - $65,000 vehicle replacement funds
    $185,000 requested amount
    $9,250 5% department match
    $175,750 95% federal match


    Total funds from department $74,250. The department is picking up 30% of the overall cost of the project.

    I have seen departments awarded for as high as a 50/50 split.

    5) Project Description. Include the number or % that have completed the program. If less than 100%, the plan to get towards that goal of 100%.

    6) Include a discussion on mutual aid. I mention it in 2 places. The first is with an Introduction of the department. State how many and what type mutual and/or automatic aid. How many additional people are being protected and how many square miles that area encompasses. If you belong to any tasks forces you should mention that as well. The next area is the cost/benefit section, because your mutual aid partners will benefit as well from a new tanker.
    Last edited by onebugle; 04-15-2011 at 08:00 AM.

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    We just had a Mass. dept. awarded $275 for a tanker. Guess it just depends on your narrative.
    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by penman View Post
    We just had a Mass. dept. awarded $275 for a tanker. Guess it just depends on your narrative.
    Ed
    Was it a straight tanker or a pumper/tanker?

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    Don't forget to budget for all equiptment including scba to make rig 1901 compliant. Also you can only spend fedral money on items required by 1901 and appartus. I found out fedral money can't be spent on slide out pump and plumbing for this pump. If you want a small pump on it it has to be a attached to the rig and be able to be rated as a fire pump. Hope this help

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    Was it a straight tanker or a pumper/tanker?
    I only saw the word tanker mentioned. I'll have to check more to find out. I'll get back to you.
    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by onebugle View Post
    Was it a straight tanker or a pumper/tanker?
    Research shows a 3000 gal. vacuum tanker. According to the newspaper article the truck has no fancy frills and it will eliminate the need for six firefighters and a pumper; instead requiring only 2 people to operate and fill. Looks like inflation and the manpower shortage in volunteer departments will increase the need for more labor efficient vehicles.
    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by penman View Post
    Research shows a 3000 gal. vacuum tanker. According to the newspaper article the truck has no fancy frills and it will eliminate the need for six firefighters and a pumper; instead requiring only 2 people to operate and fill. Looks like inflation and the manpower shortage in volunteer departments will increase the need for more labor efficient vehicles.
    Ed
    Wow. 6 people to operate and fill a tanker? We are doing it all wrong with 2 people and not a vacuum tanker.

    The driver never has to get out of his seat (and the AC) and the ground person at the water point is normally a student firefighter (14 to 18 YO)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Wow. 6 people to operate and fill a tanker? We are doing it all wrong with 2 people and not a vacuum tanker.

    The driver never has to get out of his seat (and the AC) and the ground person at the water point is normally a student firefighter (14 to 18 YO)
    Most of our 14 to18 year olds are in school during the day and we are forced to relie on firefighters who are "long in tooth" like myself. More importantly, it frees up a pumper
    and it's firefighters and often the vacuum tanker can use closer water areas. I'm not trying to defend VTs, only comment that the powers approved a tanker for $275,000 because they obviously felt that the dept. had a need.
    Ed

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by penman View Post
    Most of our 14 to18 year olds are in school during the day and we are forced to relie on firefighters who are "long in tooth" like myself. More importantly, it frees up a pumper
    and it's firefighters and often the vacuum tanker can use closer water areas. I'm not trying to defend VTs, only comment that the powers approved a tanker for $275,000 because they obviously felt that the dept. had a need.
    Ed

    Even here in rural Missouri our kids are also in school during the day, and yes, we have many firefighters who are "long in the tooth". It still does not take us 6 people to set up a draft with a tanker, or even with an engine.

    Your mileage may vary. Your operations are yours - I will continue to be a backwards hick that does the best job I know how, using the tools I have.

    And the cost? Thats entirely up to the department. I was recently quoted on a vacuum tanker by two manufacturers, right at 200k for up to a 3k vacuum tanker. I see departments in some areas that feel their absolute minimum needs dictate a $500K+ tanker while my needs are met with a 180K tanker. Same amount of h20, just different ways to go at it. They have their needs, I have mine. Simple folks have simple ways.

    Our new tanker will have storz on the suction lines, and should still be able to only need one ground person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LVFD301 View Post
    Even here in rural Missouri our kids are also in school during the day, and yes, we have many firefighters who are "long in the tooth". It still does not take us 6 people to set up a draft with a tanker, or even with an engine.

    Your mileage may vary. Your operations are yours - I will continue to be a backwards hick that does the best job I know how, using the tools I have.

    And the cost? Thats entirely up to the department. I was recently quoted on a vacuum tanker by two manufacturers, right at 200k for up to a 3k vacuum tanker. I see departments in some areas that feel their absolute minimum needs dictate a $500K+ tanker while my needs are met with a 180K tanker. Same amount of h20, just different ways to go at it. They have their needs, I have mine. Simple folks have simple ways.

    Our new tanker will have storz on the suction lines, and should still be able to only need one ground person.
    Hey don't shoot the messenger. I'm quoting from the newspaper article. Unfortunately it's not my dept., I could only wish. Our grant was for a plain jane VT which we were, like you, quoted $200,000 for a 3000gal vehicle which would suit our needs. Maybe next year.
    Ed

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    I'm thinking i would rather our town come up with some extra cash than ask for something out of the AFG price range. We really dont want anything extravagent but we still need to meet 1901. I am assuming that we are not getting our grant from 2010 since only 4 people got awards in round 21. Hey we will keep trying no matter what it takes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazing212 View Post
    I'm thinking i would rather our town come up with some extra cash than ask for something out of the AFG price range. We really dont want anything extravagent but we still need to meet 1901. I am assuming that we are not getting our grant from 2010 since only 4 people got awards in round 21. Hey we will keep trying no matter what it takes!
    Remember that the lower your cost benefit ratio the better your chances are at scoring up to a certain point. If you tell them you have say 35k put aside for a vehicle replacement fund and that would bring your cost down to under 200k for the request it will be better than asking for too much which will get you bounced by the computer or score you lower in peer review. That is in addition to your 5% match of federal funds.

    At 275k, They will look at it as asking for more than you need to provide basic fire fighter safety and compliance with NFPA standards. They know for a fact that 200k will buy a new NFPA 1901 compliant tanker. Anything above that is very hard to justify and will more than likely reduce your scoring out of the money.

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    Perhaps approach as a Tanker pumper? Most of the Vac Tankers that Watermaster (E-ONE) makes apparently have at least a 500gpm PTO pump and you can get up to a 1250gpm midship. I'm not sure of the logic of two pumps but ......

    At least gives you the opportunity to explain (to peer review) why vac tanker which you can't do in the computer scoring. If you can give a logical explanation why midship pump.

  17. #17
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    There are several reasons why a tanker pumper may not be the correct way to approach being successful at grant funding.

    1. It is compared to existing "pumper apparatus for age.If there are newer engines in fleet it will all but guarantee a DJ from computer.
    2. if you need a water supply shuttle vehicle and commit it to being the attack engine , then you effectively remove it from water supply outside of the initial response.
    3. it is much more costly to build a pumper/tanker than a straight water hauler,=greater cost benefit.
    4. What the true need of water supply is being accomplished with currently. How will a new tanker resolve issues that you currently have and will it improve FF safety?

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    Quote Originally Posted by islandfire03 View Post
    There are several reasons why a tanker pumper may not be the correct way to approach being successful at grant funding.

    1. It is compared to existing "pumper apparatus for age.If there are newer engines in fleet it will all but guarantee a DJ from computer.
    2. if you need a water supply shuttle vehicle and commit it to being the attack engine , then you effectively remove it from water supply outside of the initial response.
    3. it is much more costly to build a pumper/tanker than a straight water hauler,=greater cost benefit.
    4. What the true need of water supply is being accomplished with currently. How will a new tanker resolve issues that you currently have and will it improve FF safety?
    Completely agree. That is our thinking. But as the newspaper article said the grant was for $274 and change so it worked for this particular dept. Sadly not for us and it's the second time we ask. Our tankers are older than most of our firemen. Maybe next year will be better.
    Ed

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    As for us a Tanker/Pumper is out of the question. We have too many Pumpers/Engine's in our fleet and would definately get booted quickly. Our problem is old broken down tankers which dont meet NFPA standards. Still havent received the DJ letter yet, but am expecting it soon especially as the money dwindles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazing212 View Post
    As for us a Tanker/Pumper is out of the question. We have too many Pumpers/Engine's in our fleet and would definately get booted quickly. Our problem is old broken down tankers which dont meet NFPA standards. Still havent received the DJ letter yet, but am expecting it soon especially as the money dwindles.
    I think the fat lady has already sung for us.
    Ed

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