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  1. #1
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    Default Hard Sleeve with Storz Couplings

    What is the max flow through a 6" lightweight hard sleeve with 5" stortz couplings?

    I was traching a pump class last week and the scenario was to draft and supply 1400GPM. The scenario had the draft engine supplying a relay engine at 500' of 5" with 60ft of elevation. The relay engine supplied the attack engineat 500' of 5" with 60' decrease in elevation which was to flow 2 master streams. (1 1/4" tip and 2" tip respectively)

    The draft engine had a 1750GPM Hale single stage with a MIV valve. The lift was 4', we used 2 sections of hardsleeve and a floating strainer into a pond. During the evolution there was no debris or other blockage of the intake and plenty of water available. The hard sleeve had no apparent damage.

    We encountered a max flow of approximately 1150 - 1200 GPM with 20" of vacuum. There was no fluctuation in the flow (indicating a liner that was coming lose). The engine (330HP CAT) was also running at max RPM to flow this amount.

    A 6" hard sleeve with threaded couplings should have had no problem doing this evolution. Could the coupling be restricting the flow that much? First encounter using stortz fittings on hard sleeve.

    Any ideas, spec sheets (I could not find this info on a number of sites)?

    Thanks

    Mike


  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber CKirk922's Avatar
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    Just asking a companion question...Would a barrel strainer or a low level strainer get you more water?

    I know the recomended depth for optimum draft inlet is two feet below the surface of the water.

    I just wonder if the floater gets too much agitation that close to the surface of the water?
    A coward stands by and watches wrongs committed without saying a word...Any opinions expressed are purely my own and not necessarily reflective of the views of my former departments

  3. #3
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    I'm not too surprised at your flows. ANY restriction such as having 5" fittings instead of 6" will reduce the flow quite a bit.

    The older generation Kochek floating strainers typically could NOT provide 1,500 GPM although they now have a new version touted as the "BIG WATER" strainer. For pump testing purposes, we ended up having to use a barrel strainer tied to a float.

  4. #4
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    Default

    The 5" adaptor for sure,and possible your strainer, also do you have a butterfly on the steamer.? It doesnt take much to cut down your flow.
    ?

  5. #5
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    Default

    Thanks for the input. some point of clarification

    The intake valve was a 6" Hale Master Invake Valve (MIV). Have not experienced any flow problems with this type of valve in the past, can definitely handle over 2000GPM.

    The strainer was the first thing we checked. Low end floating strainers are notorious for restricting flow. We were using a high flow floating strainer. Even switched stainers to see if that resolved the issue. No change in the flow, which led me back to the couplings as the only remaining choke point.

  6. #6
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt1262 View Post
    which led me back to the couplings as the only remaining choke point.
    I'm surprised Mogensen isn't smacking you in the back of the head.

    (or does he not even remember how to get to Colmar anymore?)
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  7. #7
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    The answer is ( D ) all of the above.

    A butterfly valve on the suction side when drafting can cost you around 15% of your flow. From tests we have ran with and without a valve. Any little friction loss on the suction side can have a big impact when drafting. Stick a gum wrapper on the strainer and see what happens.

    5" vs. 6" also reduces drafting capability.

    A basket strainer works better than a barrel strainer. at least two feet down from a surface float and two feet off the bottom.

  8. #8
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    Couple of red flags popping out of your description. First the 1400 gpm in 5" should be around 12 psi per 100 ft. So the Fl was around 60 psi with an elevation pressure of 30 psi gets 90 and the desired 20 psi at the relay engine input should have required only 110 psi discharge pressure. You clearly state that the rpm's were approaching max, so either you were reaching pressures well above 200 psi, were cavitating seriously, or have something lodged in the impeller eyes. Any engine larger than 1500 gpm will require tandem suction sleeves to reach the annual flow test. Even some of the older 1500, with less efficient pump designs can require two draft sleeves to reach the test volume. When you say that you don't have any trouble reaching 2,000 gpm with this engine, I assume that you are taking water from a pressurized source. Anywhere there is a transition, say from 6" to 5" there is a velocity head loss, so any 5" storz connections on the suction side will cause a significant loss in flow. A low level strainer say 18" square with a 1 1/2" opening only has an intake area of 108 sq in., while a 6" hard sleeve has a cross section of 113 sq. in. A good ratio of strainer openings to suction sleeve area is 2 to 1 so a barrel strainer with 100 - 3/4" holes (176 sq in) is a better bet. You do not indicate your elevation, but at 2,000 ft. there is only about 13.4 psi air pressure to work with. You also do not describe the discharge valve and plumbing used to feed the 5" line going to the relay engine. You will need at least a 3 1/2" valve or multiple 2 1/2" valves to avoid large losses behind the panel. If you are in this situation on a fireground, here are some things that might help to increase your supply. Always use a barrel strainer or large basket strainer. Get one or two portable pumps and supply the engine on the opposite side steamer with the flow. Do NOT supply the pony suction on the draft hose side. The water entering the waterway on the side where the suction is attached will increase the turbulence in the intake and can actually decrease the flow on some engines. It is helpful to remember that the losses in the intake are caused by velocity head (inertia) making the stationary water accelerate up the hard sleeve, Lift (0.435 psi per foot of elevation), Friction loss in the sleeve (ribbed suction vs old style smooth tube), any restriction or transition. (remember 5" hard tube is for a 1,000 gpm engine) Drop a portable hydrant or wye so you can use multiple discharges to feed the line. The 3rd portable pump can go directly into the tank fill on the engine and then draw out of the tank as well as gated intakes. keep the suction under water, remove the strainer and connect on a jet syphon on the fly. Warm water can significantly affect the cavitation point. (100 deg. +) *** Do a good back flush of this engine to be sure there is nothing in the impeller openings. Even if you need to use a couple of dbl females and have a second engine pump backwards into discharges. Waterhammer (slam valves open) can help to dislodge any 2 1/2" screens that might have been pulled into the impeller inadvertently. I once removed several pounds of coal from an engine by back flushing, as well as pieces of a 6" intake screen/anode that was carried into the eye of the impeller. Do your back flushing on a clean paved lot so you can collect what comes out from the flushing.
    Last edited by KuhShise; 05-10-2011 at 10:47 PM.

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