beneifit' of useing a dump tank

The biggest benefit is you don't have the tanker sitting there empty when the simple fire you thought you could handle with just that tank of water blows out somewhere else in the structue.

If we have something more than we believe we can handle with the engine's booster tank we drop and run, with mutual aid coming in with their tankers of roughly 3000 gallons a piece. Better to have the water on the road, and the drop tank full and not need them, then realize 5 minutes too late that it was more than you thought.

the only time I can remember ever nursing with our tanker is for brushfires to refill brushtrucks.

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Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187

They're actually very different. A little background information on our operations in order to explain...

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The first arriving tanker (which 99% of the time arrives ahead of the second engine) will nurse the attack engine while the tanker's drop tank is pulled off and set up. Once the tanker's tank water has been exhausted, it takes off to the fill site. The second and third tankers will use their quick-dumps to fill the drop tank, and if the fire is large enough, their drop tanks can be set up as well. One they dump, they take off for the fill site as well.

In this scenario, the only nursing that's done is from the first tanker to the first engine. From that point forward, it's a tanker shuttle operation.

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So by your operations it sounds like the tanker has a smaller pump so the 1st in Tanker "nurses" the line up to the Attack engine until it's empty at which point hopefully the 2nd in Engine is there to take its place So Tanker Nursing should hopefully be a temporary situation until an Engine is available?

For some reason I keep picturing then "Tengines" that have a big tank and big pump/draft capability that could drop their water if they're in a shuttle but also stay on the line if they're the 2nd unit there.

Again, I apologize if this is simple for you guys. It's not something I've thought much about.

Voyager, no problem.

In our situation, the first engine & tanker respond from the same station, second engine & tanker respond from same station, and so on.

All engines are 1500gpm with 750 gallons of water, and the tankers are all 1000gpm with 1800 gallons to 2800 gallons of water (we're working on standardizing tankers to 2500 gallons now).

It's rare that the second arriving engine (supply engine) has to nurse the attack engine. Generally, the way our stations are spaced, the 1st tanker hasn't even finished nursing it's load and setting up it's dump tank when the supply engine gets there. While the supply engine prepares to draft from the drop tank and supply the attack engine, and the second tanker dumps its water as soon as the first tanker drives to the fill site.

In the 17 years I've been doing this, I've only seen one of our engines used in a shuttle - they're not designed for shuttling or quick dumping. That one time was on a mutual aid assignment to a neighboring county during nasty weather, and they simply could not get more than one tanker to the scene.

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Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187

Voyager, no problem.

In our situation, the first engine & tanker respond from the same station, second engine & tanker respond from same station, and so on.

All engines are 1500gpm with 750 gallons of water, and the tankers are all 1000gpm with 1800 gallons to 2800 gallons of water (we're working on standardizing tankers to 2500 gallons now).

It's rare that the second arriving engine (supply engine) has to nurse the attack engine. Generally, the way our stations are spaced, the 1st tanker hasn't even finished nursing it's load and setting up it's dump tank when the supply engine gets there. While the supply engine prepares to draft from the drop tank and supply the attack engine, and the second tanker dumps its water as soon as the first tanker drives to the fill site.

In the 17 years I've been doing this, I've only seen one of our engines used in a shuttle - they're not designed for shuttling or quick dumping. That one time was on a mutual aid assignment to a neighboring county during nasty weather, and they simply could not get more than one tanker to the scene.

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Pretty much the same here, except some tankers have pumps and some don't. Our "standard" size engine booster tank is around 1000 gal, and most depts have two of them in a station.

A sustained flow is always better than a fixed one- because you just never know. I cited my example as an exception- one of those nightmare fires. ( and you KNOW it would only burn on the hottest day of summer or during a blizzard, ice storm, or a thaw with 6 " of wet snow to wade through...)

I've had the "pleasure" of using our old 2000/1000 pumper in a tanker shuttle, too. And you're 100% correct- it's NOT designed for that job, and it's a time wasting PITA. I probably dropped their flow rate to a trickle. But, it was a scorching hot summer day, daytime fire, and they needed every tank they could get. I was quite happy to shuttle water, as opposed to working in that brutal heat in full gear!

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Originally Posted by LVFD301

Maybe those guys that have been on since God was a private can read. Your comprehension seems to be limited. You seem to only hear what you think helps your stance.

Almost everyone on here says it depends on the situation. Compare responses from departments LIKE yours, as you say very rural with 10 miles from water source to fire being common.

What kind of automatic aid do you have, what do they bring to the party?

By the way, what in the world does this statement you made mean?

"Granted we are a very rural department round trip u us some times can be over 10 miles one way for water."

Round trip or one way?

Being a similar department, running water shuttles, if it is a room and contents fire we nurse, but anything larger we drop a tank and start the shuttle.

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What i ment was it can be up to or more then a ten mille trip tp get a load of water. the equipment we have is a 750 gpm pumper with 500 gallon water tank, and two 2400 tanker's with 750 pump's . Our aid is approx 8 to 10 miles away one department had a 4200 gallon tanker on a used trash truck so it's not the fast thing and the other two department have 1500 gallon tanker

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Originally Posted by jeremy1213

What i ment was it can be up to or more then a ten mille trip tp get a load of water. the equipment we have is a 750 gpm pumper with 500 gallon water tank, and two 2400 tanker's with 750 pump's . Our aid is approx 8 to 10 miles away one department had a 4200 gallon tanker on a used trash truck so it's not the fast thing and the other two department have 1500 gallon tanker

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Your scenario cries out for dropping tanks and doing a shuttle.

And finding a better engine/pumper.

You have 4800 gallons of water you can dump, and get headed for more water, while the mutual aid is headed there. (Hint, go to automatic aid and get ISO credit for it) At 750 gpm, you have less than 7 minutes of water with your 5300 gallons (with 10% spillage, you are looking at 4770).

So basically, even if you nurse, you are going to be out of water before your 4200 gallons gets there. Get the shuttle running, and you might could keep up the flow.

PM me about your engine. There are engines out there available.....

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Originally Posted by ChiefKN

There are reasons why this may not be the best option.

Is that nursing tanker now blocked in? Will it be able to turn around and then do water shuttle? Or is it just fire and forget... and then rely on mutual aid tankers for more water (think travel time and the loss of a tanker in relay).

It really doesn't take that much more time to drop the tank and dump the water then to nurse if you practice. It does take another engine (typically) and not having that might be the real issue that makes you go right to nursing.

IMO: Any rural engine should carry 1000 gal... so if you got your first two engines on scene, you got a nice rolling start on the water supply.

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chief, i am a neighbor to that department and can shed light on it....
the nurse tanker is dedicated as the second out unit for the department. they do not have it enter into shuttle ops. they have a second tanker and also have 3 other tankers and 2 other engines coming on any reported structure fire. if more is needed they do and have activated mabas alarms.
total compliment is:
1- attack engine (1000 gallons)
1- nursing tanker (2500 gallons) no dump valves installed on this tanker
4- tanker/ pumpers (2500 gallons and 1000-2000 gpm pumps) all w/ dumps
1- pumper (water source) (1000 gallons)
1- engine (staged) (1000 gallons)

15,500 gallons of water and they have this on the intial page out. we usually arrive second due in there town (we are staffed 24/7, they are only 6a-11p) and it works well thus far. they have a 5" wye on their attack engine that we will hook into (remaining on the street), once the nurse tanker arrives they come into position and tie into the other side of the wye. we then join into the shuttle.

drop tanks are the water supply officers responsibility. we only set up if typically beyond 2 or 3 room and contents.

most of their commercial stuff sits on or border and we (having great mutal aid and understanding) run those as our fires (due to station proximity) and have municiple hydrants within 25' to 1200' of those structures.

In all this discussion no one have talked of relay pumping though. the amount of 5" here is over 5500'. for me, it is far better than dump tanks if you know that your flows exceed 500 gpm sustained or that it will not be fully under control with the first engine and tanker consider using relays quickly.

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Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1

chief, i am a neighbor to that department and can shed light on it....
the nurse tanker is dedicated as the second out unit for the department. they do not have it enter into shuttle ops. they have a second tanker and also have 3 other tankers and 2 other engines coming on any reported structure fire. if more is needed they do and have activated mabas alarms.
total compliment is:
1- attack engine (1000 gallons)
1- nursing tanker (2500 gallons) no dump valves installed on this tanker
4- tanker/ pumpers (2500 gallons and 1000-2000 gpm pumps) all w/ dumps
1- pumper (water source) (1000 gallons)
1- engine (staged) (1000 gallons)

15,500 gallons of water and they have this on the intial page out. we usually arrive second due in there town (we are staffed 24/7, they are only 6a-11p) and it works well thus far. they have a 5" wye on thlyeir attack engine that we will hook into (remaining on the street), once the nurse tanker arrives they come into position and tie into the other side of the wye. we then join into the shuttle.

drop tanks are the water supply officers responsibility. we only set up if typically beyond 2 or 3 room and contents.

most of their commercial stuff sits on or border and we (having great mutal aid and understanding) run those as our fires (due to station proximity) and have municiple hydrants within 25' to 1200' of those structures.

In all this discussion no one have talked of relay pumping though. the amount of 5" here is over 5500'. for me, it is far better than dump tanks if you know that your flows exceed 500 gpm sustained or that it will not be fully under control with the first engine and tanker consider using relays quickly.

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The odds of running out of water in our area if you set up a nurse tanker scenario are much greater than if you set up the folding tanks and shuttle water. It is entirely possible for some of our neighboring departments to have one way tanker trips of almost 10 miles. Multiple tanks on the ground and multiple tankers dumping in excess of 1000 gpm help to ensure a continuous water supply.

We`have on occasion done drop tank relay ops where the attack pumper lays up a long driveway and the supply pumper hooks the line and is supplied by tankers that dump into drop tanks. Unfortunately, while we have rivers and lakes througout our county, and many departments have dry hydrants, the opportunity to lay lines right from the water source seldom present themselves.

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Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1

In all this discussion no one have talked of relay pumping though. the amount of 5" here is over 5500'. for me, it is far better than dump tanks if you know that your flows exceed 500 gpm sustained or that it will not be fully under control with the first engine and tanker consider using relays quickly.

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We carrry a few thousand feet between our three engines. I have to be honest though. I'd rather set up a shuttle with 4 or 5 tankers for a residential fire then lay a few thousand feet of LDH.

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Originally Posted by ChiefKN

We carrry a few thousand feet between our three engines. I have to be honest though. I'd rather set up a shuttle with 4 or 5 tankers for a residential fire then lay a few thousand feet of LDH.

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Me too, honestly in the rural dropping the tanks and shuttling is a heck of a lot faster to set up then a several thousand foot relay.

With our tanker and first due engine we have 2500 gallons of water, right now, while we are waiting for mutual aid. Initial mutual aid comes from 3 and 5 miles and brings us another 9000 gallons. Mutual aid from 8 and 12 miles away brings us another 12,000 gallons if needed.

The other day for our poole barn fire we went to tank water on the engine for initial attacks ops, had our tanker backed in and the drop tank down and filled before the engine tank was dry. Almost as soon as our tanker pulled away we had a mutual aid tanker backing in. The shuttle flowed perfectly and we never ran out of water. Obviously, that doesn't happen every time and Murphy has a way of sneaking in to everybodies operations from time to time.

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Originally Posted by FyredUp

Me too, honestly in the rural dropping the tanks and shuttling is a heck of a lot faster to set up then a several thousand foot relay.

With our tanker and first due engine we have 2500 gallons of water, right now, while we are waiting for mutual aid. Initial mutual aid comes from 3 and 5 miles and brings us another 9000 gallons. Mutual aid from 8 and 12 miles away brings us another 12,000 gallons if needed.

The other day for our poole barn fire we went to tank water on the engine for initial attacks ops, had our tanker backed in and the drop tank down and filled before the engine tank was dry. Almost as soon as our tanker pulled away we had a mutual aid tanker backing in. The shuttle flowed perfectly and we never ran out of water. Obviously, that doesn't happen every time and Murphy has a way of sneaking in to everybodies operations from time to time.

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Pretty much what we do. 1250 on the attack engine, with either 2250 or 2000 coming from the same station on the first tanker. The other tanker on the way with 2250 or 2000, and the automatic aid tankers are on the road also. Our issue comes from the auto aid coming from 15 to 17 miles away. At our flow we keep water flowing after our tankers dump, but it sometimes gets tight before the auto aid tankers get there. Normally we have it caught by then anyways. Being in the rural world our NFF is not that high, normally just single story slab built residences, small convenience stores, and churches.

And remember your "needed fire flow" is more of an average and is not always a continueous flow. Hopefully you are shutting lines down and moving them (again hopefully forward) - during that time ,your nurse tanker is more or less static, while your shuttle trucks are gaining ground.

Well i think i proved my point sunday on a house fire when they kept running out of water and i made them put a dump tank on the ground and we quit runing out water. Now to teach them about cafs we got it now were going to use it.

You "MADE" them use a dump tank huh?

the comment about laying 5" was about the fact that us and our close auto aid deparmtents have looked and mapped availible rural water supply spots in our district. close ponds and lakes to drives and roads, close muni-hydrants to rural areas, and rivers and large creeks. if under 2000' away from one of those, we can put 3 engines is a small to medium length relay (if judged to be most effective) and this will only take 3 PO's away from the fire. with 5 tankers running we lose those drivers in the shuttle plus the PO's for the attack, draft, and nurse plus a dedicated water supply officer.

we have laid 4000' of a relay with 4 engines in 12 miunutes of dispatched for a structural fire and had to flow upwards of 1000 gpm it for about 1 hour sustained. that call made me a believer in our ability to do relays effectively.

i do agree, room and contents and small structures, relays would be overkill.

Eight trucks to one structure fire. That must be great. Initial dispatch for us is two engines(1000) and two tankers(3000) with a pickup designed to fill them. Mutual Aid is at least 12 to 15 miles away. Our SOG for the tankers is drop your tank and water and get to a fill site. Engines will either set up to nurse one to the other or setup separately to fight the fire based on terrain, exposures and need.

Most of talk has been about the dump site, but during a past class back 10 or so years ago on tanker ops. For the fill site we used 3000 gal dump tank on 800 gpm hydrant. We used 6" hard suction off the steamer open flow into the tank and 2 3" hoses off the 2.5"s and tied them into the aux suction on the pump. Then took suction from the tank using main 6" intake. By using the dual 3" into aux intakes water would flow out the hard suction while not taken draft and help refill the tank and maintain prime and when filling would help with flow rate.

Worked like a charm and we could fill tankers at 1000 gpm or more if needed off a 800 gpm hydrant. Good thing was if you had a 2000 gal tanker and it took 2 mins to fill the hydrant gave/replaced 1600 gals and only used 400 gals out of 3000 gal dump tank.

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Originally Posted by Eng3ineer

Most of talk has been about the dump site, but during a past class back 10 or so years ago on tanker ops. For the fill site we used 3000 gal dump tank on 800 gpm hydrant. We used 6" hard suction off the steamer open flow into the tank and 2 3" hoses off the 2.5"s and tied them into the aux suction on the pump. Then took suction from the tank using main 6" intake. By using the dual 3" into aux intakes water would flow out the hard suction while not taken draft and help refill the tank and maintain prime and when filling would help with flow rate.

Worked like a charm and we could fill tankers at 1000 gpm or more if needed off a 800 gpm hydrant. Good thing was if you had a 2000 gal tanker and it took 2 mins to fill the hydrant gave/replaced 1600 gals and only used 400 gals out of 3000 gal dump tank.

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This same concept can be done with your on-board tank water. Re-filling while the tankers are being hooked up or you are waiting for them to arrive.

Lets face it, there are many ways to do things, we choose the option that works that you have the manpower to accomplish at that time.