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  1. #21
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    Not to beat a dead horse from another thread, but putting a pulley instead of carabiner at your high directional (in this case, the one above your window) for the BELAY rope is completely unnecessary and only adds unnecessary impact to your belay device.

    As for needing a shock absorber in a top-rope belay (which this is what you all are talking about), if you've a competent belayer at the ready, it's unnecessary.

    What I've not heard anyone mention is the value of using bouldering pads or beater mattresses on the ground to guard ankles and tail bones during the last 8 feet or so near the ground, as the belay becomes less effective down there (especially if you add shock absorbers).
    True Eric, but, the pulley at the hi directional will reduce friction in the belay so that the person on rope will be able to perform the evolution without the "hinderance" of the belay drag. I do agree the carabiner as the high directional will add friction to the belay, but, the person on rope will have to then deal with that drag while performing the evolution. A competent belayer is a must though.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    True Eric, but, the pulley at the hi directional will reduce friction in the belay so that the person on rope will be able to perform the evolution without the "hinderance" of the belay drag. I do agree the carabiner as the high directional will add friction to the belay, but, the person on rope will have to then deal with that drag while performing the evolution. A competent belayer is a must though.
    A simple redirect of the belay rope thru a carabiner does not add friction to the point that it would create the problem you're referring to. Redirecting the belay rope thru a carabiner(s) directional like this is done every day in the rock climbing world without affecting the climber's movement/mobility. And, think about belaying the rescue package in a lowering operation from a cliff top, where the belay rope is running over terrain and maybe some edge padding- way more friction on the rope than a carabiner. If the belayer blames the rope getting locked up at the belay device on the rub of the rope against the edge pro, a carabiner, etc., (please don't take offense because I mean none) my vote is remedial belay training.

  3. #23
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    A simple redirect of the belay rope thru a carabiner does not add friction to the point that it would create the problem you're referring to. Redirecting the belay rope thru a carabiner(s) directional like this is done every day in the rock climbing world without affecting the climber's movement/mobility. And, think about belaying the rescue package in a lowering operation from a cliff top, where the belay rope is running over terrain and maybe some edge padding- way more friction on the rope than a carabiner. If the belayer blames the rope getting locked up at the belay device on the rub of the rope against the edge pro, a carabiner, etc., (please don't take offense because I mean none) my vote is remedial belay training.
    No offense brother. I just found that it worked smoother with the belay and maintaining the proper amount of tension on the line without the person on rope not experiencing any drag with a pulley system. The actual friction would be applied when the belay device was needed and the directional was loaded. Even then it would be minimal compared to the breaking device. Difference of opinion but as long as it is done safely and correctly it will work. In general I dont use changes of direction in my belay lines because of the shock load failure potential. If it were possible i would prefer to rig the belay without the high directional. Makes the operation more complex though.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    -------The actual friction would be applied when the belay device was needed and the directional was loaded.
    I'd consider that a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    Even then it would be minimal compared to the breaking device.
    I'm not positive, but I think you're meaning that there is much less friction against the directional, be it pulley or biner, versus the friction within the fixed brake. Yes, I'd say that would also be a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    Difference of opinion but as long as it is done safely and correctly it will work.
    Oh yes, the pulley will definitely work. My only contention is that using a pulley within any directional in a belay system "works" too well. Friction in the belay system is your friend. That is what you're ultimately after.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    In general I dont use changes of direction in my belay lines because of the shock load failure potential.
    If I need a directional in a belay system, I'd simply use the appropriate gear sufficient to make the catch. Then I wouldn't worry about failure potential any more than I would in any other element within the operation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    If it were possible i would prefer to rig the belay without the high directional. Makes the operation more complex though.
    If the high directional is deemed to be appropriate and bomber, then it's appropriate and bomber, and then no worries.

    The premise in this thread was the protection of the person practicing bail out. Having the belay rope high seems advisable as it creates a safer angle in the rope relative to the vertical aspect of the wall. If no HD and the belay rope is attached to the dorsal, if the person blows it right at the lip, the angle of the rope can cause the person's face to eat the wall with gusto.

    So instead of having a certain preference to always sticking with a way to rig, my preference is to just rig appropriately given the situation at hand.
    Last edited by EricUlner; 08-11-2011 at 01:17 AM. Reason: typo

  5. #25
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    I'd consider that a given.



    I'm not positive, but I think you're meaning that there is much less friction against the directional, be it pulley or biner, versus the friction within the fixed brake. Yes, I'd say that would also be a given.



    Oh yes, the pulley will definitely work. My only contention is that using a pulley within any directional in a belay system "works" too well. Friction in the belay system is your friend. That is what you're ultimately after.



    If I need a directional in a belay system, I'd simply use the appropriate gear sufficient to make the catch. Then I wouldn't worry about failure potential any more than I would in any other element within the operation.



    If the high directional is deemed to be appropriate and bomber, then it's appropriate and bomber, and then no worries.

    The premise in this thread was the protection of the person practicing bail out. Having the belay rope high seems advisable as it creates a safer angle in the rope relative to the vertical aspect of the wall. If no HD and the belay rope is attached to the dorsal, if the person blows it right at the lip, the angle of the rope can cause the person's face to eat the wall with gusto.

    So instead of having a certain preference to always sticking with a way to rig, my preference is to just rig appropriately given the situation at hand.
    I agree on all accounts. My only point of discussion was the transition out the window and allowing the bail out system to take the tension rather than any stall in the belay and the belay taking tension. The way we practice is to make the bail out in real time. Once the belay is attached the person on rope will back off the window and crawl up while calling a mayday, anchor and go out the window, the belay person is removing slack and then providing belay during this time and needs to be very proficient in the belay operation so the belay does not become loaded. It has been performed with both a carabiner and a pulley and becomes easier with the pulley. Minimally easier but when being belay for 20 or so bail outs anything that makes my job easier a good thing.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    I agree on all accounts. My only point of discussion was the transition out the window and allowing the bail out system to take the tension rather than any stall in the belay and the belay taking tension. The way we practice is to make the bail out in real time. Once the belay is attached the person on rope will back off the window and crawl up while calling a mayday, anchor and go out the window, the belay person is removing slack and then providing belay during this time and needs to be very proficient in the belay operation so the belay does not become loaded. It has been performed with both a carabiner and a pulley and becomes easier with the pulley. Minimally easier but when being belay for 20 or so bail outs anything that makes my job easier a good thing.
    ----------------Ok.

  7. #27
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    ----------------Ok.
    Does that mean you don't agree?
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Here is what we utilize and recommend (we use a full body hasty harness instead of a commercial). There has been drop testing done with this, and I have seen the results but don't have the copies right now. I highly recommend it, and with utilizing a grigri / grigri 2 and the proper ropes you can belay the firefighter safely and at a good speed as to not hold him up. The carabiner at the high point is the way to go.

    We've used this in classes with 50 students a day and multiple windows and no problems with belayer fatigue, and only rarely interfering with the bailout itself (slowing the guy down).

    Here you can see we've set it up for multiple FF bailout without any interference

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03lKg1_WGXE
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by AFD020; 08-14-2011 at 12:25 PM. Reason: added attachment - didn't take first time and a couple comments

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    Quote Originally Posted by AFD020 View Post
    Here is what we utilize and recommend (we use a full body hasty harness instead of a commercial). There has been drop testing done with this, and I have seen the results but don't have the copies right now. I highly recommend it, and with utilizing a grigri / grigri 2 and the proper ropes you can belay the firefighter safely and at a good speed as to not hold him up. The carabiner at the high point is the way to go.

    We've used this in classes with 50 students a day and multiple windows and no problems with belayer fatigue, and only rarely interfering with the bailout itself (slowing the guy down).

    Here you can see we've set it up for multiple FF bailout without any interference

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03lKg1_WGXE
    AFD,
    Looks like your system can move people fairly rapidly without hangup, and has for climbers for years. In our (DPFD in cook county, Il) case, we specced the rig instead of the gri-gri for a couple of reasons, but mainly rope stretch. Are you using a dynamic rope? and if so, is rope stretch a factor for catching a 300lb (with gear) firefighter within 10 ft. or so of the ground. I also noticed you have a crash pad, which seems to be necessary with these types of systems, and might relieve some of the issues.

    Thanks,
    Collin

  10. #30
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    Colin,

    We have been using 11mm static rope with the grigri. At a recent update drop testing and data has shown that the stretch and shock absorbency of dynamic with the gri-gri 2 is the way to go. So we are just beginning to phase in the GG2 and dynamic into our classes.

    It is definitely tougher to belay these low heights vs what we see in rescue / industry. Typically issues where you catch someone on belay is during the window transition, after that sometimes it is just an over speed you are slowing down on the belay so, stretch there I don't think is a huge deal.

    I love my RIGs, and would be OK using them as well, but just a bit heavier device to hang onto all day long. When I get my hands on the data again I'll post it.

    Steve

    btw: great job with Rope Access Nation!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    Does that mean you don't agree?
    If you say that using a pulley in the belay system makes life easier for you, I'm saying ok, if you say so for you. And, biners don't impede my belaying and never have.

  12. #32
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    If you say that using a pulley in the belay system makes life easier for you, I'm saying ok, if you say so for you. And, biners don't impede my belaying and never have.
    Ok. Fair enough. We will be doing bail out training next week. I will probably be using the biner just to prove me wrong. LOL
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    Ok. Fair enough. We will be doing bail out training next week. I will probably be using the biner just to prove me wrong. LOL
    By the way, is your belay station on the ground below or is it at or above the redirect anchor?

  14. #34
    Forum Member Lewiston2FF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    By the way, is your belay station on the ground below or is it at or above the redirect anchor?
    Our belay station is on the ground below.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    Our belay station is on the ground below.
    I don't know your background... In the climbing world, that set-up is typically referred to as a "slingshot" top rope. I asked in case that's what you're doing. Perhaps you already do this, but I just want to offer that an ideal slingshot set-up is with two carabiners together at the redirect. Yes, you can certainly get by with a single locking carabiner, but a few points:

    - If the locking biners are type 2 (manual twist locks), it's a good idea to orient them with the locking nut/barrel down with gravity, as vibration can unlock them the other way. Despite this, I've seen biners magically turn over during top rope belaying with the right wave of slack hitting them.
    - Orient the two biners gates opposed, such that even if one flips over and the gates are together, they still open opposite directions.
    - Climbers often use two quick draws with type 1 (non-locking) biners, which makes the opposite clipping pretty key.
    - If the clip point of the knot you've got up there isn't cinched tightly to the biner, the biner(s) can flip into a cross load or a funk-angle (technical term) orientation. Hence the typical rubber boot or band on the rope end biner of a quickdraw.

    To pre-answer any question of why two there if it's ok to use one at the belay device?
    The single biner at the belay is directly manageable, as the belayer is right there with it. The redirect is not.

    Another good thing to keep an eye on is the carabiner(s) orientation relative to a wall. If the plane of the carabiner is perpendicular to the wall and is against it, an unlocked carabiner can smack the wall in a dynamic event, causing the gate to "whiplash" open, especially if the cord or webbing holding the biner is long, allowing flop. Open gates usually decrease carabiner strength by roughly 2/3. (I was belaying a buddy when a carabiner broke for that exact reason, granted it was a leader fall. But still...) For that reason, I will often rig such that the plane of the carabiners are parallel to the wall surface. If the wall surface is considerably less than vertical, this can be problematic, as rope rub against the surface can come into play. If that cannot be avoided, then rig so the load side is toward the wall, belay side away from the wall, in order to avoid pinching the rope, as there is more strain on the load strand per friction at the carabiners.

    Of course, if the belay station is from inside at or above the person on belay, this stuff wouldn't be as critical since complete failure of the redirect would only see the rope drop to the window ledge.

    That went on longer than I intended, but perhaps that may be good info for someone...
    Last edited by EricUlner; 08-19-2011 at 01:54 PM. Reason: additional info

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    Quote Originally Posted by EricUlner View Post
    I don't know your background... In the climbing world, that set-up is typically referred to as a "slingshot" top rope. I asked in case that's what you're doing. Perhaps you already do this, but I just want to offer that an ideal slingshot set-up is with two carabiners together at the redirect. Yes, you can certainly get by with a single locking carabiner, but a few points:

    - If the locking biners are type 2 (manual twist locks), it's a good idea to orient them with the locking nut/barrel down with gravity, as vibration can unlock them the other way. Despite this, I've seen biners magically turn over during top rope belaying with the right wave of slack hitting them.
    - Orient the two biners gates opposed, such that even if one flips over and the gates are together, they still open opposite directions.
    - Climbers often use two quick draws with type 1 (non-locking) biners, which makes the opposite clipping pretty key.
    - If the clip point of the knot you've got up there isn't cinched tightly to the biner, the biner(s) can flip into a cross load or a funk-angle (technical term) orientation. Hence the typical rubber boot or band on the rope end biner of a quickdraw.

    To pre-answer any question of why two there if it's ok to use one at the belay device?
    The single biner at the belay is directly manageable, as the belayer is right there with it. The redirect is not.

    Another good thing to keep an eye on is the carabiner(s) orientation relative to a wall. If the plane of the carabiner is perpendicular to the wall and is against it, an unlocked carabiner can smack the wall in a dynamic event, causing the gate to "whiplash" open, especially if the cord or webbing holding the biner is long, allowing flop. Open gates usually decrease carabiner strength by roughly 2/3. (I was belaying a buddy when a carabiner broke for that exact reason, granted it was a leader fall. But still...) For that reason, I will often rig such that the plane of the carabiners are parallel to the wall surface. If the wall surface is considerably less than vertical, this can be problematic, as rope rub against the surface can come into play. If that cannot be avoided, then rig so the load side is toward the wall, belay side away from the wall, in order to avoid pinching the rope, as there is more strain on the load strand per friction at the carabiners.

    Of course, if the belay station is from inside at or above the person on belay, this stuff wouldn't be as critical since complete failure of the redirect would only see the rope drop to the window ledge.

    That went on longer than I intended, but perhaps that may be good info for someone...
    I appreciate your explanation. We will be using a ladder to stand the redirect off of the wall and avoiding the redirect biners from hitting anything. It also pulls the firefighter away from the wall in any instance the belay is employed. The ladder is tied off top and bottom so that we dont have to worry about the swing and slide should the belay be loaded off center. It is the way the state teaches in the train the trainer class and for the most part is SOP for using the training facilities.

    I do like the idea of the double biner at the redirect and once I read that had the same thought regarding gate orientation and potential spin. All biners being used will be manual screw locking type. The redirect will be tied into two web loops around the rungs such that the rungs and beams are encapsulated. This will keep the biner oriented in a direction parallel to the building and the ladder but I have seen odd things happen.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewiston2FF View Post
    I appreciate your explanation. We will be using a ladder to stand the redirect off of the wall and avoiding the redirect biners from hitting anything. It also pulls the firefighter away from the wall in any instance the belay is employed. The ladder is tied off top and bottom so that we dont have to worry about the swing and slide should the belay be loaded off center. It is the way the state teaches in the train the trainer class and for the most part is SOP for using the training facilities.

    I do like the idea of the double biner at the redirect and once I read that had the same thought regarding gate orientation and potential spin. All biners being used will be manual screw locking type. The redirect will be tied into two web loops around the rungs such that the rungs and beams are encapsulated. This will keep the biner oriented in a direction parallel to the building and the ladder but I have seen odd things happen.
    Rock and roll Lewiston

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