Thread: 12 year rookies

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    Default 12 year rookies

    http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-he...ack-candidates


    Chicago FD Ordered to Hire 111 Black Candidates
    Firehouse.com News

    Posted: Fri, 05/13/2011 - 12:52pm
    Updated: Fri, 05/13/2011 - 12:52pm

    A federal appeals court ruled Friday that the Chicago Fire Department must hire 111 black firefighter candidates previously passed up for the jobs, according to The Chicago Sun-Times.

    The city must also pay "tens of millions of dollars" in damages to 6,000 others.

    The 111 new firefighters will have their pensions adjusted as if they had been on the job since 1995.

    The decision by the Seventh U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upholds a unanimous ruling made last year by the U.S. Supreme Court that the candidates hadn't waited too long before filing a discrimination lawsuit over the way the city handled a 1995 entrance exam.

    The case will now be sent back to the trial court to implement a "hiring remedy," according to the report.

    The lawsuit claimed that the exam did not measure the ability to be a firefighter and made it more than six times more likely that white applicants would be hired rather than blacks.

    The city established a cutoff score of 89 for the exam and hired randomly from the top 1,800 candidates, 78 percent of whom were white.
    Last edited by rpferry; 05-13-2011 at 02:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpferry View Post
    http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-he...ack-candidates

    The lawsuit claimed that the exam did not measure the ability to be a firefighter and made it more than six times more likely that white applicants would be hired rather than blacks.
    I *really* wish they included a little bit more information as to how the courts arrived at this decision. Without the actual reasoning behind it, there's no way to determine whether it was a valid judgement or insanity masquerading as politically correct thinking.

    The city established a cutoff score of 89 for the exam and hired randomly from the top 1,800 candidates, 78 percent of whom were white.
    Another reason I hate the frigging media. They throw the 78% number out there without stating what the racial makeup of the area is. If whites are about 80% of the population.... you'd expect them to make up about 80% of the applicants.

    I swear to christ reporters are simply out to troll people for the lulz.

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    Heartbreaking... How many of these morons are actually fit for duty? Best case scenario is every one of them "retires" without stepping foot into a firehouse; a monster payday for 111 mopes (and "damages" for another six THOUSAND?!) who couldnt fingerpaint their way through an entrance exam, and the taxpayers of Chicago get to eat the sh1t sandwich that the courts slapped together... And thats *best* case
    To Persist is to Conquer.

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    Thumbs down Continuing to promote racism!

    I'm still at a complete loss as to the things I know as opposed to any other race? Is 8x8 still 64 if your skin isn't white? How are the tests racially biased if they test basic knowledge? In fact I don't know of a single thing I know as a white person that any average person of any ethnicity wouldn't know?

    Am I completely off base thinking I'd be outraged if I was "classified" as less smart than another ethnicity? Do other ethnicities want to be recognized for not having the same knowledge base.

    Again proving that the best candidate for the job regardless of the color, size or whatever, is not the prevailing factor in so many places. Poor hiring decisions such as this should make it to all the "Best Places to Live, Work, or Retire" lists so that people understand the quality of municipal employees is offset by the ethnic make up of the community.

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    I'm not sure if I am understanding this right. 111 people will be chosen from random out of a pool of 6,111 black test takers, with the remaining ones just being paid damages? If the test was found not to measure firefighting ability shouldn't EVERY test taker regardless of race be given an opportunity to be chosen at random/paid damages. If I was a white/latino/native american/asian/indian/etc person who did poorly on the test, why does discriminating against me not matter?

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    Any Chicago members out there able to clarify this ruling at all?
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    This exact thing was ruled the other way around in a huge victory for logic in New Haven, CT. All the people who didn't study and expect to be spoon fed a promotion lost.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpferry View Post
    http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-he...ack-candidates


    Chicago FD Ordered to Hire 111 Black Candidates
    Firehouse.com News

    Posted: Fri, 05/13/2011 - 12:52pm
    Updated: Fri, 05/13/2011 - 12:52pm

    A federal appeals court ruled Friday that the Chicago Fire Department must hire 111 black firefighter candidates previously passed up for the jobs, according to The Chicago Sun-Times.

    The city must also pay "tens of millions of dollars" in damages to 6,000 others.

    The 111 new firefighters will have their pensions adjusted as if they had been on the job since 1995.

    The decision by the Seventh U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upholds a unanimous ruling made last year by the U.S. Supreme Court that the candidates hadn't waited too long before filing a discrimination lawsuit over the way the city handled a 1995 entrance exam.

    The case will now be sent back to the trial court to implement a "hiring remedy," according to the report.

    The lawsuit claimed that the exam did not measure the ability to be a firefighter and made it more than six times more likely that white applicants would be hired rather than blacks.

    The city established a cutoff score of 89 for the exam and hired randomly from the top 1,800 candidates, 78 percent of whom were white.
    Well that will make everything "OK", won't it?
    DFW



    "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

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    Hey guys, I know this won't be a popular opinion but as someone who has spent decades with the Chicago Fire Department and someone who took the test in question, I support the decision. This test is notorious in the department for being incredibly biased. Any reasonable person would look at the test and realize that. I have dozens of examples of test questions that are completely out of line and would naturally lead a person of color to the wrong answer. I'm not saying the test creators were intentionally trying to exclude people of color. I'm simply saying that the test, as written, is biased and exclusionary. I'm glad the courts have finally come around to what we in the department have been saying for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago_Fire_Guy View Post
    Hey guys, I know this won't be a popular opinion but as someone who has spent decades with the Chicago Fire Department and someone who took the test in question, I support the decision. This test is notorious in the department for being incredibly biased. Any reasonable person would look at the test and realize that. I have dozens of examples of test questions that are completely out of line and would naturally lead a person of color to the wrong answer. I'm not saying the test creators were intentionally trying to exclude people of color. I'm simply saying that the test, as written, is biased and exclusionary. I'm glad the courts have finally come around to what we in the department have been saying for years.
    Can you elaborate on questions that would lead a "person of color" to an incorrect answer while a "white person" would select the correct answer? Post some of the dozens of test questions that are biased. I can not imagine a question about the fire service that would confuse people of color while being completely obvious to whitey. I'd love to see it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    Can you elaborate on questions that would lead a "person of color" to an incorrect answer while a "white person" would select the correct answer? Post some of the dozens of test questions that are biased. I can not imagine a question about the fire service that would confuse people of color while being completely obvious to whitey. I'd love to see it.
    Nameless, I appreciate your skepticism but as I mentioned, I have direct knowledge of the test. I completely understand that the media has sensationalized the story to make it seem like the courts were out of line and that the test offered an equal opportunity to both whites and people of color. The reality is that the test questions were written in such a way that they were more difficult (if not impossible) for people of color to answer correctly. At best this means that the test writers are insensitive or incompetent. At worst it means that they are intentionally trying to exclude people of color from the department. I think the fact that the passage rate for people of color was so low just proves that the test was indeed biased. Again, I appreciate your position but trust me when I tell you that the courts were right. I literally have copies of the exam in a file cabinet that I show to people. Everyone who has seen the exam questions has the same opinion that I do.

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    Without an example, your posts are meaningless. You very well may have first hand knowledge, but you will probably find no one here is just going to accept the word of someone who registered and posted for the first time today on FH.com.
    "The nation which forgets its defenders will be itself forgotten." - (John) Calvin Coolidge
    "Speed is not a good alternative to lack of knowledge." -armymedic571

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    This exact thing was ruled the other way around in a huge victory for logic in New Haven, CT. All the people who didn't study and expect to be spoon fed a promotion lost.
    I think it comes down to the questions. I admit that I'm not fully briefed on the New Haven case but from what I understand, the courts in that instance reviewed the exam and ruled that anyone (regardless of race) would be able to answer the questions correctly. The Chicago exam is very different and in this case, the courts reviewed the exam and unanimously ruled that the questions were biased. It all comes down to how the questions are written and what the exam is testing. As someone who has taken the Chicago test, I agree with the courts. If you had seen these questions you would agree. Any reasonable person would.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aromania View Post
    Without an example, your posts are meaningless. You very well may have first hand knowledge, but you will probably find no one here is just going to accept the word of someone who registered and posted for the first time today on FH.com.
    Hi Aromania, thanks for your input. I respect your position. I have been following the FH.com forum for a long time but always as a reader, never as a poster. This exam has been a pet cause of mine for years so when the story broke I decided to finally register and post. It's something I feel really strongly about. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I just wanted to share an alternate viewpoint and let other people who may be reading this thread know that there is a diversity of viewpoints in the community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chicago_Fire_Guy View Post
    Hi Aromania, thanks for your input. I respect your position. I have been following the FH.com forum for a long time but always as a reader, never as a poster. This exam has been a pet cause of mine for years so when the story broke I decided to finally register and post. It's something I feel really strongly about. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I just wanted to share an alternate viewpoint and let other people who may be reading this thread know that there is a diversity of viewpoints in the community.
    Diversity of viewpoints? You are the only joker on here who feels this way. There is no way a test administered by a government agency could be racially biased. It is simply impossible. These tests are scrutinized time and time again and if there had been any wrong doing it would have been pointed out long ago. As others have said, put up or shut up.
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    I do not understand how could make questions that black people as race can't answer. That makes no sense. Black people are not from a different planet, sent here to earth the day before a test and left therefore with an unfair disadvantage.

    Example:

    What is the capital of the United States?
    a) Washington, DC
    b) New York City
    c) Texarkana, TX
    d) Walawala, WA

    Candidate #386 chooses A and he's a white guy.
    Candidate #387 chooses D and he's a black guy.

    Resulting conclusion: Candidat #387 is an idiot. Not a black idiot. Just an idiot. If the white guy got it wrong, he would be an idiot too.
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    I do not understand how could make questions that black people as race can't answer. That makes no sense. Black people are not from a different planet, sent here to earth the day before a test and left therefore with an unfair disadvantage.
    Once you see the exam questions you will understand. I have a hard copy of the exam that I needed to type up so that I can post it. Hopefully I can post all of the questions. I am almost done. Stay tuned...

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    So these 111 + 6000 others weren't hired in 1995... AND they weren't hired anywhere since? Did they just stop testing after this test in 1995, or have they been testing over the last 16 years and still couldn't get on the job?

    I doubt the studs who should be getting hired now will get a court ruling in their favor.
    "The nation which forgets its defenders will be itself forgotten." - (John) Calvin Coolidge
    "Speed is not a good alternative to lack of knowledge." -armymedic571

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpferry View Post
    Diversity of viewpoints? You are the only joker on here who feels this way. There is no way a test administered by a government agency could be racially biased. It is simply impossible. These tests are scrutinized time and time again and if there had been any wrong doing it would have been pointed out long ago. As others have said, put up or shut up.
    As I mentioned before, I am not trying to change anyone's mind here but I think you will be singing a different tune when you see the exam questions. I am typing them out now (I only have a hard copy) so please be patient.

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    HAHA ok you got us. No way in hell any municiple government would issue a test written with those questions.

    If by some screwball black hole in space chance that these are real questions on a test your department has alot more problems then just hiring diversity

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    The courts use only the criteria of outcome. They do not investigate the alleged harmed parties on an individual basis, nor do they look into the habits of the succesful. It's excrement, not based at all on any kind of "thought." It is based on feelings. It's a modern American liberal bunch of nonsense and when you vote Democrat, you support this kind of crap.
    Logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead.

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    nice job, very convincing and totally funny.

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    EDIT: Maybe I should read the rest of the thread before commenting. My bad....
    Last edited by ATFDFF; 05-13-2011 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Taking things too seriously......

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny46 View Post
    The courts use only the criteria of outcome. They do not investigate the alleged harmed parties on an individual basis, nor do they look into the habits of the succesful. It's excrement, not based at all on any kind of "thought." It is based on feelings. It's a modern American liberal bunch of nonsense and when you vote Democrat, you support this kind of crap.
    While I agree in this case it is extreme left wing liberal BS, what do you think you get when you vote for the opposite (republican)? How any public worker especially a firefighter can continue to vote republican is beyond me. The republicans have been scamming the middle class for years, and finally, over the past few months especially, it is becoming crystal clear (unless you only watch fox news).

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    Thumbs up Post(s) of the Year Nomination

    Hook, line and freaking sinker. nice job Chicago!

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