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    Default Tactics for underground parking garages (or whatever you call them)

    Hi guys,

    I'm doing my thesis for my master about fighting fires in underground parking garages and thus I'm wondering about how you do this.

    Hose size, gpm, self made ventilation (if possible), nozzle, 2 in 2 out, ...


    Thanks in advance
    Theusje

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    we have multiple underground garages in our city near my first due. i have never had to fight one there though. but here is the basic plan.

    treat as a commercial fire, getting multiple comanies quickly. min of 3 engines, 3 trks, and 2 medic units.

    location location location...tic's and good smoke reading and preplans. i would recon the fire to find best attack point and attempt to avoid being lower when attacking. this is due to modern vehicle using poly tanks for gas tanks.

    this is a minimum of a 2 line fire. add a dedicate rit ("on deck" for those desert ff's)

    ventilation will be difficult but not impossible, quite a few of our parking garages have 2 or more entrences. you need teams on to stay above (for can reports) the fire if the building is built on top of the garage.

    the brit's have a video of car fires extending to multiple vehicles, be ready for that.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQZ_fv_NhAk
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    Any reported fires in our underground/above ground garage got a full first-alarm assignment. All of this was subject to change depending on the location/conditions, but here is what I remember:

    -First in engine drops a supply line, connects into the standpipe.
    -Second engine drops a line and supplements the sprinkler system
    -First in engine crew advances 3" line with gated wye and highrise bag to the area of the fire.
    -Second in engine crew takes their highrise bag, connects into first due's 3".
    First in engine pumps the 3" line with foam.

    Truck Company and Rescue Company perform duties as assigned.

    One Medic unit stands by.
    Last edited by FWDbuff; 05-18-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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    Like FWD said , use your high rise/ horizontal stand pipe system. Also take a second to gauge wind speed and direction, and if POSSIBLE and or PRACTICAL try to have any wind to you back. But if you have to choose between wind and elevation ,choose to approch from higher rather than lower, not just because of fuel , but the dang things sometimes roll.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    we have multiple underground garages in our city near my first due. i have never had to fight one there though. but here is the basic plan.

    treat as a commercial fire, getting multiple comanies quickly. min of 3 engines, 3 trks, and 2 medic units.

    location location location...tic's and good smoke reading and preplans. i would recon the fire to find best attack point and attempt to avoid being lower when attacking. this is due to modern vehicle using poly tanks for gas tanks.

    this is a minimum of a 2 line fire. add a dedicate rit ("on deck" for those desert ff's)

    ventilation will be difficult but not impossible, quite a few of our parking garages have 2 or more entrences. you need teams on to stay above (for can reports) the fire if the building is built on top of the garage.

    the brit's have a video of car fires extending to multiple vehicles, be ready for that.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQZ_fv_NhAk
    You would do all that for a car fire...........really?
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Thanks for the replies so far. Unfortunately I'm doing my thesis about tactics but about the stability of an underground parking garage because this has more to do with engineering.

    A few years ago a fire broke out in an undergroud parking garage somewhere in France. The ventilation holes and fans were not able to suck out enough smoke and hot air. Also the FD was delayed because there was it was market day. The fire spreaded to several cars next to it and FF's were unable to gain acces to the firefloor. Also trees which were in front of the ventilation openings caught fire. In the end they had to fill up the garage with foam.

    I can look up the details if you want but I can't find the magazine in which I read it.

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    Our engine has two 400' beds of 1 3/4" hose, we would probably just stretch the hose, maybe use foam if there was burning gas, and attack it like any other structure/car fire. I never understood why it made sense to F around with leader lines, standpipe packs, flying standpipes etc when you would be in the smoky ****ty area trying to make all those connections. Why not just stretch the hose like usual, and put the fire out? I guess in alot of cases its a problem because everyone seems to run 200' preconnects, and they are probably all but useless in this situation. The limiting factor with fires like this always seems to be poorly set up hosebeds.

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    what do you pump those 400 ft lines at ?
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    what do you pump those 400 ft lines at ?
    Full *&%#in' throttle!
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackjawedyokel View Post
    what do you pump those 400 ft lines at ?
    Drivers side is 120 PSI for 160 GPM

    Officers Side is 210 PSI for 250 GPM 1 1/8" tip or 160 GPM if you use the attached breakaway fog tip.

    We did our own flow testing on the hose we use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You would do all that for a car fire...........really?
    yes........
    Originally Posted by madden01
    "and everyone is encouraged to use Plain, Spelled Out English. I thought this was covered in NIMS training."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    we have multiple underground garages in our city near my first due. i have never had to fight one there though. but here is the basic plan.

    treat as a commercial fire, getting multiple comanies quickly. min of 3 engines, 3 trks, and 2 medic units.

    location location location...tic's and good smoke reading and preplans. i would recon the fire to find best attack point and attempt to avoid being lower when attacking. this is due to modern vehicle using poly tanks for gas tanks.

    this is a minimum of a 2 line fire. add a dedicate rit ("on deck" for those desert ff's)

    ventilation will be difficult but not impossible, quite a few of our parking garages have 2 or more entrences. you need teams on to stay above (for can reports) the fire if the building is built on top of the garage.

    the brit's have a video of car fires extending to multiple vehicles, be ready for that.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQZ_fv_NhAk
    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You would do all that for a car fire...........really?
    Quote Originally Posted by ffmedcbk1 View Post
    yes........
    You realize they are made out of concrete.......right???
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Drivers side is 120 PSI for 160 GPM

    Officers Side is 210 PSI for 250 GPM 1 1/8" tip or 160 GPM if you use the attached breakaway fog tip.

    We did our own flow testing on the hose we use.
    I would have to see this to believe it. 120 PSI through 400' of 1 3/4" seems awful low to flow 160 GPM. Low pressure, 50 PSI fogs I assume?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You realize they are made out of concrete.......right???
    Concrete cars? Wow, horrible MPG, I bet.

    We don't have any below grade, but above. Ventilation not so big a deal.

    We drill on this one every couple of years, it is a standpipe operation for us.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You would do all that for a car fire...........really?
    Kramer, we do something similar. Our underground decks get a 3&2 response. I've had the opportunity to do two of these, and our biggest obstacle was the lack of available ventilation which of course hampered the visibility greatly, adding to our knock down time. Add to that the fact that one of them was three levels below grade and extended to two other vehicles, the need for the manpower provided by a standard commerical assignment quickly became evident.

    Edit: Many years ago, we had a then-lieutenant (now BC) became seperated from his crew in a large above-ground deck while working a car fire. The smoke was wickedly thick and he was running low on air when he became disoriented. He was eventually located grasping to an outside wall but unable to rescue himself. I've seen it first-hand in our department and neighboring departments that the "open" walls in an above ground deck don't guarantee any amount of self-ventilation.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 08-01-2011 at 12:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    I would have to see this to believe it. 120 PSI through 400' of 1 3/4" seems awful low to flow 160 GPM. Low pressure, 50 PSI fogs I assume?
    Don't have to believe me if you don't want to. We won't be running any boxes together anytime soon. Data is on ponn's website for conquest hose if you want to try to prove me wrong. Their data says we should be pumping 114 PSI, but we got 120. That's the nice thing about doing your own flow testing. It's especially awesome because I think the 6 PSI difference is incredible! Nozzle is a 7/8" saberjet. Peace!

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    Here is a drill where our company stretched a 700ft attack line for training. it worked.

    http://www.jfd39.com/fullstory.php?137229

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    Our engine has two 400' beds of 1 3/4" hose, we would probably just stretch the hose, maybe use foam if there was burning gas, and attack it like any other structure/car fire. I never understood why it made sense to F around with leader lines, standpipe packs, flying standpipes etc when you would be in the smoky ****ty area trying to make all those connections. Why not just stretch the hose like usual, and put the fire out? I guess in alot of cases its a problem because everyone seems to run 200' preconnects, and they are probably all but useless in this situation. The limiting factor with fires like this always seems to be poorly set up hosebeds.
    Because it's not that simple.
    Working 200ft off the standpipe eliminates that 400-600+ ft stretch from the street. The fire can easily be 2-3 levele down. You make your connections before you hit the smoke.
    On a different note...
    What do you do if you need three 300ft lines and have only 800ft of hose?
    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    You would do all that for a car fire...........really?
    This is not just a car fire but a car fire in a building. We've had a few. Most were below grade 2 or 3 levels down. It's a basement fire involving one, or several, cars in a highrise with maybe 2,000 people who are going to go apeshiit when they hear there's a fire in their building. Went to one where the HVAC didn't shut for a while and there was some smoke on 5 floors of offices and smell on another 6-7. Involved 3 cars.
    --------------------
    Even though it's a car, it's a reported fire in a building so we'll send a full box. 4 and 2..rescue and chief. Each engine carries two 75ft lengths of 1 3/4" and two 2 1/2". Any companies not used can easily be sent back.
    Last edited by len1582; 08-02-2011 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by len1582 View Post
    This is not just a car fire but a car fire in a building. We've had a few. Most were below grade 2 or 3 levels down. It's a basement fire involving one, or several, cars in a highrise with maybe 2,000 people who are going to go apeshiit when they hear there's a fire in their building. Went to one where the HVAC didn't shut for a while and there was some smoke on 5 floors of offices and smell on another 6-7. Involved 3 cars.
    I'll concede on lower level garages with other occupancies above.
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    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MemphisE34a View Post
    I'll concede on lower level garages with other occupancies above.
    And on above ground garages....it's only a car.

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    ...............[QUOTE=len1582;1286076]Because it's not that simple.
    Working 200ft off the standpipe eliminates that 400-600+ ft stretch from the street. The fire can easily be 2-3 levele down. You make your connections before you hit the smoke.
    On a different note...
    What do you do if you need three 300ft lines and have only 800ft of hose?

    Len,

    I guess it's important to note that the half dozen of these we have are no more than a half a story below grade and the standpipes are in the open, not protected. To answer your question, it depends. An on duty staff of no more than 7 of us isn't stretching three 300 ft lines. We have the following hose loads. 400' 1 3/4 with 250 of it preconnected, 600' 3" with water thief, 400' 2 1/2" static bed, 1200' 4" and 400' 1 3/4" preconnected. We carry 200 feet of 2" in 2 bundles for standpipe use and have 150' 1 3/4" on the bumper. Lots of options.

    I make the mistAke sometimes of picturing in my head what's in my district, and not considering other situations. My bad.
    Last edited by MG3610; 08-02-2011 at 08:36 PM.

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    Ok. We all use what works for us.

    No problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG3610 View Post
    I make the mistAke sometimes of picturing in my head what's in my district, and not considering other situations. My bad.
    I did the same. Even so however, I find it difficult to imagine a time that you would need 3 lines for a car fire in any circumstance. Even if it has extended to 3 cars by the time you get there, you should not need a line for each of them.
    RK
    cell #901-494-9437

    Management is making sure things are done right. Leadership is doing the right thing. The fire service needs alot more leaders and a lot less managers.

    "Everyone goes home" is the mantra for the pussification of the modern, American fire service.


    Comments made are my own. They do not represent the official position or opinion of the Fire Department or the City for which I am employed. In fact, they are normally exactly the opposite.

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