1. #1
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Austin, TX, USA
    Posts
    8

    Default Maximum age for apparatus

    I've heard that somebody somewhere limits the age of a pump apparatus to 10 years for front line duty, and 15 years for reserve duty, or the department "loses credit."

    The ISO web site says they do not limit the age of apparatus. Where is the age limitation written?

    Thanks for your assistance on this.

    phil

  2. #2
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Windsor, MA
    Posts
    237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by preyn2 View Post
    I've heard that somebody somewhere limits the age of a pump apparatus to 10 years for front line duty, and 15 years for reserve duty, or the department "loses credit."

    The ISO web site says they do not limit the age of apparatus. Where is the age limitation written?

    Thanks for your assistance on this.

    phil
    I haven't heard of any limits. At some point I think NFPA requires you to refurb and test frontline apparatus though. Before I was on the department we refurbed the 1959 FWD pumper (primary engine at the time) to meet this requirement. That was probably in the mid 1990s.

    We have engines that are 13, 25 and 51 years old, a tanker that is 43 years old and a brush truck that is 40 years old. They work fine, you just have to know how to drive a real stick shift.

  3. #3
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,315

    Default

    You're thinking of NFPA 1901, Annex D. It states that a rig older than 20 years should be placed into reserve status and/or refurbished, and should be removed from service at 25 years.

    ISO does not rate the age of the rig.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Austin, TX, USA
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Thanks. I knew that ISO does not rate the age of apparatus, but they do require apparatus to meet NFPA standards in order to count toward the ISO rating, correct?

    The reason I'm trying to research this is because my tax board wants to lower our ISO rating, which is currently an 8, in order to reduce fire insurance rates in our district. I've told them there's no such thing as a free lunch; you gotta pay to play.

    My only pumper is a 1987 Pierce, so considering that front line use after 20 years is outside the applicable standard, we're not about to lower any ISO PPC classifications, are we?

    I'm going to purchase the ISO FSRS and NFPA 1901 because the tax board will want to see the source documents from which my information was gathered, but I'm wondering if I'm thinking in the correct direction.

    Thanks -
    phil

  5. #5
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2,037

    Default

    Went from a class 8 to a 4 with a 96 engine - a 69 engine - and a 69 service truck. Both passed pump test and all were well maintained. Yeah you gotta "pay to play" - but sometimes you "gotta meet em halfway"
    ?

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    EastKyFF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Posts
    3,090

    Default

    My understanding was that you could meet ISO standards with apparatus of any age, but that you maximized points if apparatus were less than ten years old.

    So back to the OP, both are right (if I am, which ain't a given).
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  7. #7
    Forum Member
    PaladinKnight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by preyn2
    I knew that ISO does not rate the age of apparatus, but they do require apparatus to meet NFPA standards in order to count toward the ISO rating, correct?

    ISO does not rate the age of the Fleet. The most important thing you should worry about are the pump tests.

    You're question is a subjective. If you built a truck in-house, you must build it to NFPA standards. But ISO will score the pump and purpose. If you had built a tanker without a pump, the primary purpose is to carry water. The design of the tanker is not as important as its capability. How fast can it be filled and dumped. Travel Time is not tested.



    Quote Originally Posted by preyn2
    The reason I'm trying to research this is because my tax board wants to lower our ISO rating, which is currently an 8, in order to reduce fire insurance rates in our district. I've told them there's no such thing as a free lunch; you gotta pay to play.
    Ok... that is true... but make sure you acquire the big points for the dollars you spend.


    Quote Originally Posted by preyn2
    My only pumper is a 1987 Pierce, so considering that front line use after 20 years is outside the applicable standard, we're not about to lower any ISO PPC classifications, are we?
    Incorrect! You can improve your PPC having only a single engine. The key word here is "Engine". But without knowing anything more about your situation, I can't advise where you can go.

    I have helped many depts get to a Class 5 or 6 that only had one Engine and a couple of Tankers. The focus is on what you can do with what you have to work with.


    Quote Originally Posted by preyn2
    I'm going to purchase the ISO FSRS and NFPA 1901 because the tax board will want to see the source documents from which my information was gathered, but I'm wondering if I'm thinking in the correct direction.

    The ISO FSRS is free and can be found here -> http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/0000/ppc0001.html

    I might suggest a couple of other NFPA Standards to have on hand, but 1901 is not one you will need for a ISO Survey. Your fleet is what it is. Having 1901 is not going to change it and using the standard will not give you any assistance for justifying a new truck. It most likely will frustrate the situation. I suggest that you not try to use the ISO issue as leverage for buying a new fleet.

    Using the ISO FSRS is all you need to justify buying what you don't have.

    If you lack the basic equipment on your engine, that will cost you points.

    Having only one engine will cost you points.

    Having only one station for more than a 5 mile radius will cost you points.

    Having structures located further than 1-1/2 road miles from you engine/station... will cost you points.

    Having no pump and hose test will cost you points.

    Having no training records or Water Supply data/test will cost you points.

    Your PPC (Public Protection Classification - sometimes identified as ISO Rating) is based upon much more than the Fleet.

    At PPC 8, your department has demonstrated the capability to pump 250gpm for 2 hours... without interuption. Look at what you did to get that and ask, can we pump more than that now?

    If the answer is no... then you have alot of work to do.

    If you answer yes... then ask the question again while looking in the mirror.

    My point is this... if you do not understand the ISO Survey, and what ISO requires, you need to start there. This is basically an open-book test. They give you the answers. It is up to you to make it work for you.

    It is very important that you know exactly what to expect when ISO arrives. You must know what your dept will score before the survey. If you go in unprepared... then you will have a bad day.

    Do not be afraid of ISO. Whatever happens you will find out where your department is, and they will provide a report with goals and suggestions to improve your situation.

    So if you fail... then you have justication to show the board... "If we had only bought those ___________". (fill in the blank)

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Many years ago I was hired to assist a small town department with improving their PPC. During the first meeting with the Chief and his Council, he stated many things as facts that ISO required. About 90% of it was wrong.

    Now understand, I was hired to do a job and did not have a dog in the hunt. My goal was to help them succeed and do it as cost effective as possible. The first question one of the councilman ask me was "Is he correct?"

    So when they appointed a new chief that really did want to understand the process, they went on to improve from PPC 9 to PPC 6. That guy is still Chief and has since built a PPC 4 department, without any additional help from me.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Moral of the story: Make sure you have the facts straight.

    Good Luck.

    PK
    HAVE PLAN.............WILL TRAVEL

  8. #8
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Posts
    97

    Default

    Deersville Community Fire Dept. 1943 American Body with 1943 Darley pump on an 1985 chassis. Truck is in front line service still as the departments only engine.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Maximum age restriction?
    By wade1439 in forum Hiring & Employment Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-24-2010, 07:50 PM
  2. Maximum Age
    By bushmaster in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-09-2005, 03:13 AM
  3. Maximum age for apparatus drivers?
    By Fireman488 in forum Emergency Vehicle Operations
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-05-2003, 08:11 PM
  4. Maximum Driver Age
    By JeepFireNY in forum Emergency Vehicle Operations
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-12-2003, 06:00 AM
  5. SUPREME SACRIFICE - 12/22
    By ChiefHank in forum The Supreme Sacrifice
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-20-1999, 06:22 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register