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    Default Tutterow's article in Fire Apparatus Mag

    I like the article in Fire Apparatus & Emergency equipment magazine in Kepping it Safe.

    http://www.fireapparatusmagazine.com...apparatus.html

    Smaller apparatus makes sense to me in certain situations especially with the call load for many department is a majority of EMS calls or assists, i'll look forward to the next issue for part two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFD_E73_RET View Post
    I like the article in Fire Apparatus & Emergency equipment magazine in Kepping it Safe.

    http://www.fireapparatusmagazine.com...apparatus.html

    Smaller apparatus makes sense to me in certain situations especially with the call load for many department is a majority of EMS calls or assists, i'll look forward to the next issue for part two.
    My station runs an interface style rig. Much lighter and shorter than everything else with a pump on the department. Heck, the new engine is 10,000 pounds heavier...

    Wish we had maybe 750 water on it instead of 500, but it has everything we need on it. I think the fact that it isn't as heavy accounts for it having been very reliable as well.
    "Share your knowledge - it's a way to achieve immortality." - Stolen from Chase Sargent's Buddy to Boss program

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    "Why do you send a $400,000+ truck with 500 gallons of water, a 1,500-gpm pump, 1,200 feet of five-inch hose, hundreds of feet of 1-inch and 2-inch hose, extension ladders, roof ladders, and compartments full of firefighting equipment to take care of Mrs. Smith when she has chest pains?"

    Today my company was dispatched for a lift assist. While enroute, a fire alarm came in for an apt building right down the street. We were rerouted to the fire and were first due. Good thing we were in a regular engine with the equipment we needed for the fire, and not a pickup truck, like our politicians suggest is all we need for EMS runs.

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    "In next month's column, I will discuss why switching to smaller apparatus might not happen and examine alternative service delivery vehicles. Regardless, hard questions are being asked of the fire service to justify its current business model, especially as it relates to the size and cost of our apparatus. How do we respond to this question? Why do you send a $400,000+ truck with 500 gallons of water, a 1,500-gpm pump, 1,200 feet of five-inch hose, hundreds of feet of 1-inch and 2-inch hose, extension ladders, roof ladders, and compartments full of firefighting equipment to take care of Mrs. Smith when she has chest pains?"

    this should really be rephrased to "why do we need all this on one piece, when multiple apparatus will be responding?" There are a great many FD's that use apparatus like taxis, but insist on loading them up with junk that sits a block down the street while people work off of the first or second arriving pieces. Granted we've taken on more roles than years ago, but not every piece of apparatus needs to carry everything we might ever need. The compartments don't have to be spacious, with tools mounted or placed like they are on display in a store. We could get away with smaller apparatus, if we stop trying to one up each other and remember we are building work trucks and not parade pieces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    this should really be rephrased to "why do we need all this on one piece, when multiple apparatus will be responding?" There are a great many FD's that use apparatus like taxis, but insist on loading them up with junk that sits a block down the street while people work off of the first or second arriving pieces. Granted we've taken on more roles than years ago, but not every piece of apparatus needs to carry everything we might ever need. The compartments don't have to be spacious, with tools mounted or placed like they are on display in a store. We could get away with smaller apparatus, if we stop trying to one up each other and remember we are building work trucks and not parade pieces.
    That rig sitting a block down the road with all the equipment as the first and second arriving pieces may seem to be a waste. But in reality, that third piece will be the first piece in its due area. So what then??? Have them wait until the second or third piece shows up with the right tools and equipment???

    We don't build parade pieces, or try to up our rigs to impress or say "we have this, that, and the other". How about you??? As for displaying the tools... it is easier to know where the halligan bar is right away, than to move shovels, axes, brooms, etc, just to get to it. If you like wasting time moving sh*t around to find what you need, so be it. But we try to be somewhat organized on our tool layouts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    How do we respond to this question? Why do you send a $400,000+ truck with 500 gallons of water, a 1,500-gpm pump, 1,200 feet of five-inch hose, hundreds of feet of 1-inch and 2-inch hose, extension ladders, roof ladders, and compartments full of firefighting equipment to take care of Mrs. Smith when she has chest pains?"
    Because some moron came up with the idea of sending Firetrucks to do EMS.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    In a one crew house it may not make sense to run a smaller truck on assists and such. To me If you have a couple of crews it would make much more sense to run a squad or interface on stills.

    I also see very small volunteer departmets needing new apparatus and can't afford a 250K+ pumper or pumper/tanker. Why not run something with 300-400 gallons 750-1000gpm pto pump, foam, room for some Hyd tool and ems equipment on a medium duty chassis for $165-$175K? My guess it would handle about 95% of your calls and most likely any big events you would have mutual aid coming anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFD_E73_RET View Post
    My guess it would handle about 95% of your calls and most likely any big events you would have mutual aid coming anyway.
    You sound like our chief, who sold our tower ladder and said, "Everyone else in the county has one, just special call theirs." Too bad he didn't ask any of the other cities what they thought of that plan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    "Why do you send a $400,000+ truck with 500 gallons of water, a 1,500-gpm pump, 1,200 feet of five-inch hose, hundreds of feet of 1-inch and 2-inch hose, extension ladders, roof ladders, and compartments full of firefighting equipment to take care of Mrs. Smith when she has chest pains?"

    Today my company was dispatched for a lift assist. While enroute, a fire alarm came in for an apt building right down the street. We were rerouted to the fire and were first due. Good thing we were in a regular engine with the equipment we needed for the fire, and not a pickup truck, like our politicians suggest is all we need for EMS runs.
    What he said!

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    I like the idea of smaller vehicles- but not at the expense of the full sized apparatus.

    A light duty squad type vehicle to handle ems and service calls makes sense, and works out well. It helps extend the service life of the far more expensive units by keeping some of the wear and tear off them.

    Now, I'm addressing this from a small town volunteer perspective. I can't really say much from a full time standpoint, because I've never worked in a full time dept.

    Set up correctly, that two man squad can also bring it's crew to a fire fully equipped to go to work- as part of a truck or rescue crew for example. It also addresses the need for a smaller more manouverable vehicle to access tight places or off road rescues. Another good use is as a tow vehicle for any trailered equipment, like rescue boats, ATV's, usar style trailers, etc.

    To address the question posed in the article: Apparatus are large, expensive, and complicated due to the nature of the many jobs it's required to do. The more different types of incidents we need to respond to- the more gear we have to carry. Those tools do us no good sitting back at the station on the other truck! It's a simple case of form following function.

    Engines, trucks or rescues go on ems runs because:

    A) that is the rig the crew is assigned to.

    B) Having the main rig with them means they can respond to other calls for help sooner, rather than having to return to base for the "fire" rig.

    C) equipping a single crew with two apparatus would cost more in the long run.

    This, of course assumes that the ems squad isn't separately staffed, or that the balance of the crew doesn't stay in service with the main rig.

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    I always love these articles.

    Some parts are true but they always forget about the overhead costs of running a "second" piece.

    Insurance , PM (more trucks requires for parts and service,) duplicate EMS equipment (AED required on engine now duplicate $5000 on squad, not to mention duplicate ALS and BLS equipment,) and other equipment (extinguishers, radio (portables and truck mount assigned to the unit,) computer, GPS, SCBA, and hand tools, additional bay space, plymovent hook-up, fuel card, map books, and more and more...

    Not to mention the cost to get the vehicle (bid process through purchasing) in addition to the cost of the vehicle.

    It will take you years to recover the cost of a second unit using fuel savings.

    Assuming 9 mpg for engine co. and 17 mpg for squad and $4/ gallon for fuel. Both driving 15,000 a year. You'll save $3138 a year in fuel. It will take 10 years in fuel savings to pay for a stripped down Ford F-150.

    Where's the savings?

    Plus what gunnyv said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    That rig sitting a block down the road with all the equipment as the first and second arriving pieces may seem to be a waste. But in reality, that third piece will be the first piece in its due area. So what then??? Have them wait until the second or third piece shows up with the right tools and equipment???

    We don't build parade pieces, or try to up our rigs to impress or say "we have this, that, and the other". How about you??? As for displaying the tools... it is easier to know where the halligan bar is right away, than to move shovels, axes, brooms, etc, just to get to it. If you like wasting time moving sh*t around to find what you need, so be it. But we try to be somewhat organized on our tool layouts.

    FM1
    For most of what we do, you don't need all the specialty equipment on every truck. Besides, in many of the situations we'd need that equipment we can't even start the operation until we get more manpower. So might as well keep it on a rescue or specialty unit.

    We don't build parade pieces either, but I look around and see many people blowing money and trying to carry everything possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFD_E73_RET View Post
    In a one crew house it may not make sense to run a smaller truck on assists and such. To me If you have a couple of crews it would make much more sense to run a squad or interface on stills.

    I also see very small volunteer departmets needing new apparatus and can't afford a 250K+ pumper or pumper/tanker. Why not run something with 300-400 gallons 750-1000gpm pto pump, foam, room for some Hyd tool and ems equipment on a medium duty chassis for $165-$175K? My guess it would handle about 95% of your calls and most likely any big events you would have mutual aid coming anyway.
    You can still buy a real pumper for that price range from several very reputable mfg. IH or Frtliner 2dr program truck w/1000gal, 1250gpm with lots of compartment space. Not much activity in a program F550 size unit which means you're talking a spec truck. So more $ than otherwise might be the case (so little relative cost savings).

    Another envirowacko round of emissions and it will go up another $10k or more.

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    If I can elaborate on lexfd's point, the stated object of a second piece is usually to prolong the life of the large full size rig. But how long, and why? We already get 15 years front line service out of our rigs, and usually 5 more as spares. Our spare engines have 130K miles on them. How many water depts use 20 year old backhoes, dump trucks, etc?

    Look at how inefficient and outdated a 20 year old rig may be. Where are you going to get parts? How about all the advancements you will be going without, and the cost of adding things no one ever thought of belonging in a fire truck when it was built? Imagine the headaches of running electrical power for a new laptop based dispatch system in a 1986 model rig. We spend lots of money on alternators and light bulbs for our older rigs, but the newer ones have higher capacity alternators and LED lights. The new trend toward APUs and idle reduction may save thousands of dollars that will be burned up in an idling older rig. Besides, eventually the rig starts rotting away no matter how few miles you have on it. Will it rust less if it responds two times a day vs 5 a day over 20 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nameless View Post
    For most of what we do, you don't need all the specialty equipment on every truck. Besides, in many of the situations we'd need that equipment we can't even start the operation until we get more manpower. So might as well keep it on a rescue or specialty unit.

    We don't build parade pieces either, but I look around and see many people blowing money and trying to carry everything possible.
    I probably could have said it differently, but we are on the same page.

    And yes, I've seen some of the rigs being equipped with more than they should carry. Especially on pumpers on other Dept's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnyv View Post
    If I can elaborate on lexfd's point, the stated object of a second piece is usually to prolong the life of the large full size rig. But how long, and why? We already get 15 years front line service out of our rigs, and usually 5 more as spares. Our spare engines have 130K miles on them. How many water depts use 20 year old backhoes, dump trucks, etc?
    Good point, and if they wish to question our use of apparatus how many times have you seen
    Kodiak/Topkick sized work trucks hauling around guys and a few hand tools for DPW and the truck isn't even really being used, maybe it is towing some small jackhammer or lighting trailing. A pick up could do that job easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Because some moron came up with the idea of sending Firetrucks to do EMS.
    Ding! Ding! Winnah! T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
    You can still buy a real pumper for that price range from several very reputable mfg. IH or Frtliner 2dr program truck w/1000gal, 1250gpm with lots of compartment space. Not much activity in a program F550 size unit which means you're talking a spec truck. So more $ than otherwise might be the case (so little relative cost savings).

    Another envirowacko round of emissions and it will go up another $10k or more.
    HOW can you use REAL and Freightliner in the same sentence? Hehe T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    HOW can you use REAL and Freightliner in the same sentence? Hehe T.C.
    We like our Freightliners. Neighbors hate thier Internationals...
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTRider245 View Post
    We like our Freightliners. Neighbors hate thier Internationals...
    Interesting. Around here you would be a minority. Way more trouble with Freightshakers than cornbalers. Whatever works. T.C.

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    Post My $.01

    Opinions are like *******, EVERYBODY'S got one........

    Be safe everyone and buckle up!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mnfirecapt09 View Post
    Opinions are like *******, EVERYBODY'S got one........

    Be safe everyone and buckle up!!!

    Actually, not everyone has one,
    and like opinions, it's sad when you don't have one.

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