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Thread: Sireno Model 40010 "The answer to the Q Siren"

  1. #21
    Forum Member Weruj1's Avatar
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    Capt............that BC thingy............oh ya .................loud as hell .............2 of them mounted next to each other and POOF ! you are a super star ! Deputy I am delcaring SHINANIGANS on you.
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Item 1, Because they WORK. Item two,WEAR hearing protection,its CHEAP. Three, before you worry about the liability get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it. And what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty? We've had Q's here for a LONG time,the public is at greater risk for hearing loss than the guys riding the rig.Mount them LOW and out front,the sound projects FORWARD. T.C.
    "Because they WORK" No doubt about it. Maybe to well. Over 1100 brothers claiming injury from a similar unit may be something to watch out for.

    "the public is at greater risk for hearing loss" I wonder if any Lawyer has tried that angle yet?

    " get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it" Great advice, could not agree more. I don't like it because I enjoy doing this stuff & could probably do a better job.

    "what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty?" EngineCO38 wrote that the rig was "new." I assumed.

  3. #23
    Forum Member EngineCO38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    One other detail.IF that is a tilt cab rig make sure you leave enough space to tilt it.Otherwise you WILL be an unhappy camper. T.c.
    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    "Because they WORK" No doubt about it. Maybe to well. Over 1100 brothers claiming injury from a similar unit may be something to watch out for.

    "the public is at greater risk for hearing loss" I wonder if any Lawyer has tried that angle yet?

    " get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it" Great advice, could not agree more. I don't like it because I enjoy doing this stuff & could probably do a better job.

    "what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty?" EngineCO38 wrote that the rig was "new." I assumed.
    You know what they say about assuming right?

    Okay let me clarify a few things here folks. First of all, the truck is "new to us" not brand new. Its a 1994 E-One 110' Ladder we purchased from a town in Mass after it was traded in or a cool-aid brand Aerial device There is no warranty to void, and the instillation would be handled by someone who knows what the crap they are doing. Not by a bunch of us at the station who...kinda think we know what we're doing.

    Rescue, it is in fact a tilt cab and I've already taken precautions to ensure when we go to tilt the cab it will not crush the siren I've worked my *** off on to restore. That would indeed make me an unhappy camper

    And as far as legal issues with the Q siren and which style is better electric or Mechanical...I Honestly don't really care I am just looking for what little technical advice I can get on this old girl. We want to mount it for traditions sake, and for the fact we all just downright love having them in conjunction with our electrics. Thanks again folks.
    Opinions expressed by myself here are just that, mine. And not that of ANY organization or service I am affiliated with.

  4. #24
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    If it's the answer to the "Q" siren, does that make it an "A" siren?
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.Ē
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  5. #25
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    "Because they WORK" No doubt about it. Maybe to well. Over 1100 brothers claiming injury from a similar unit may be something to watch out for.

    "the public is at greater risk for hearing loss" I wonder if any Lawyer has tried that angle yet?

    " get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it" Great advice, could not agree more. I don't like it because I enjoy doing this stuff & could probably do a better job.

    "what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty?" EngineCO38 wrote that the rig was "new." I assumed.
    Lou,I've devoted over half my life to the Fire service.If you look at the Rig the siren is set on for a mount check,it NOT a "new" design rig. Points to the OLD guy for observation. Second: What do YOU know about the FS lawsuit? I've spent quite a lot of time on it and it started with a couple "brothers"claiming injury and snowballed to where it is today. I would hazard a guess that at least a FEW of the claims are frivilous. Take a LONG look and tell me what you think.Not that it matters but we have used Q's since 1972 on all our front line apparatus. And will continue to until FS no longer produces the unit. Use a sound meter and check your rigs INSIDE the cab. If the DB exceeds the daily allowance,wear ear protection,none of ours do(exceed the limit). Or don't use a Q,which,where we work, would be detrimental to our crews safety.Take a look at my stats,I didn't just climb on a rig yesterday. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 06-13-2011 at 09:47 AM.

  6. #26
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    You know what they say about assuming right?

    Okay let me clarify a few things here folks. First of all, the truck is "new to us" not brand new. Its a 1994 E-One 110' Ladder we purchased from a town in Mass after it was traded in or a cool-aid brand Aerial device There is no warranty to void, and the instillation would be handled by someone who knows what the crap they are doing. Not by a bunch of us at the station who...kinda think we know what we're doing.

    Rescue, it is in fact a tilt cab and I've already taken precautions to ensure when we go to tilt the cab it will not crush the siren I've worked my *** off on to restore. That would indeed make me an unhappy camper

    And as far as legal issues with the Q siren and which style is better electric or Mechanical...I Honestly don't really care I am just looking for what little technical advice I can get on this old girl. We want to mount it for traditions sake, and for the fact we all just downright love having them in conjunction with our electrics. Thanks again folks.
    38,ONE more small detail. Once you get it hooked up and WORKING,comtemplate changing out the Electronic for a Whelen 295 Hf Slsa1(17 tones)or a Powercall. Now THAT'S Conjunction,hehe T.C.
    BLSboy likes this.

  7. #27
    Forum Member evtrandy's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that since a mechanical siren pulls so muck amperage at start up, the gravel shield is not a good enough ground. It is not just shade tree, jack leg or back yard mechanics that make this mistake. Both manufactures I have worked for at times have used the siren mounting botls as a ground. Keep in mind that the gravel shield is bolted to the bumper, the bumper is bolted to a painted bracket, the bracket is bolted to a painted frame extension and the frame extension is bolted to a painted frame rail. All of these bolts and painted parts add up to a bad ground and will at times cause electrical problems with any unit. Run a 2 awg cable from the siren to the same frame rail your alternator is grounded to and you should have no issues. Most of the trucks I have done had an empty 3/8" hole in the rail. I just clean off the paint on both sides of the hole, bolt my 2 awg cable to the siren and the rail and then spray both points with terminal sealant. You would be surpised how much better evrything operates with this quick and easy change,
    The A/C is not cold enough, the warning lights are not bright enough, siren is not loud enough, the C.D. player skips every time we jump a curb, cab doors only open to 89.5* and it's been like this since day one!!!!

  8. #28
    Forum Member FWDbuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    A Pennsylvania jury has awarded a Philadelphia firefighter $100,000 in damages against Federal Signal Corp. for hearing loss associated with Q-Sirens.
    Yeah and that lawsuit had so much weight to it that the Philadelphia Fire Department continues to this day to buy rigs with Federal Q mechanical sirens. There was a period in time where they bought electronics only, but the apparatus was getting into to many accidents, so they went back to mechanicals- and guess what? Less accidents.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  9. #29
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Simply not true. Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. That's a simple, documentable, scientific fact.



    Heaven forbid I should post any facts that contradict your imagination.


    Facts, you want facts?

    See this::


    http://www.timberwolfsirens.com/sirenBasics.htm


    Here is the facts!!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  10. #30
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Facts, you want facts?

    See this::


    http://www.timberwolfsirens.com/sirenBasics.htm


    Here is the facts!!
    Good find. That was ONE of the studies I saw. Very informative. T.C.

  11. #31
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Facts, you want facts?

    See this::


    http://www.timberwolfsirens.com/sirenBasics.htm


    Here is the facts!!
    Damn you with all your fancy facts!!!

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  12. #32
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Hey, where did the good Deputy go with his facts?
    Career Fire Captain
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    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  13. #33
    Forum Member DeputyMarshal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Something to do with acoustic wavelength and frequency. T.C.
    Correct. And "wavelength and frequency" design elements that have nothing to do with whether they are generated mechanically or electro-mechanically. The effectiveness of a siren is a factor of amplitude, frequency, and where you point it. It has nothing whatsoever with how you generate the sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Facts, you want facts? Here is the facts!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Good find. That was ONE of the studies I saw. Very informative. T.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Damn you with all your fancy facts!!!
    Seriously? Timberwolf is trying to sell sirens. Those aren't "facts." A kid with a high school physics class under his belt should know that soundwaves -- however they're produced -- don't move in "spiraling square waves"... It's not a "study;" it's an advertisement. Surely you guys know the difference, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Hey, where did the good Deputy go with his facts?
    I just got back from the NFPA C&E. I'll decide tomorrow if it's worth the effort to dig up the documentation to dispute the urban myth of the Q once again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    Vehicles with electronic sirens tend to out run their sound waves at approximately 55 mph. This phenomena is so common in the industry, they call it sirencide.
    "Sirencide" has nothing to do with the type of siren in use. It's about the fact that the effective audible range of a siren -- any siren -- is relatively fixed and finite. At a given speed, that effective range becomes less than the distance the vehicle covers during a typical driver's reaction time.

    Vehicles equipped with mechanical sirens do not outrun their sound waves.
    This is why I hesitate to bother spending much time on this. Anyone who actually believes that sound waves produced by a mechanical siren are somehow faster that soundwaves produced by an electro-mechanical siren probably doesn't know enough to understand the explanation anyway...
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 06-15-2011 at 11:58 AM. Reason: typo
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    This is why I hesitate to bother spending much time on this. Anyone who actually believes that sound waves produced by a mechanical siren are somehow faster that soundwaves produced by an electro-mechanicl siren probably doesn't know enough to understand the explanation anyway...
    I'm no expert, but all sounds travel at the same speed... all other things being equal. Even frequency and wavelength do not change that.

    However, if a sound is louder it will travel further.

    Our Q siren is louder then our PA300 siren.

    In addition, and what I think is the most compelling reason... people know it is a fire truck coming.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 06-14-2011 at 10:47 PM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I know that I'm not alone when I say that I'd like to see your proof.
    Crickets...............
    Buck
    Assistant Chief/EMT-B

  16. #36
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    Seems I opened a can of worms with the whole, Mechanical siren vs. Electric Siren....Damn it and just when I thought I could avoid stirring the pot
    Opinions expressed by myself here are just that, mine. And not that of ANY organization or service I am affiliated with.

  17. #37
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    Seems I opened a can of worms with the whole, Mechanical siren vs. Electric Siren....Damn it and just when I thought I could avoid stirring the pot
    Its all your fault....
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Crickets...............
    bump.............
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  19. #39
    Forum Member CaptOldTimer's Avatar
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    hump.....
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    Seems I opened a can of worms with the whole, Mechanical siren vs. Electric Siren....Damn it and just when I thought I could avoid stirring the pot
    You, my friend are a diabolical genius. Whatís next? Are you going to say you found a box of nozzles, smooth bore & automatics in the attic & you were wondering what works best.

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