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Thread: Sireno Model 40010 "The answer to the Q Siren"

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    You know what they say about assuming right?

    Okay let me clarify a few things here folks. First of all, the truck is "new to us" not brand new. Its a 1994 E-One 110' Ladder we purchased from a town in Mass after it was traded in or a cool-aid brand Aerial device There is no warranty to void, and the instillation would be handled by someone who knows what the crap they are doing. Not by a bunch of us at the station who...kinda think we know what we're doing.

    Rescue, it is in fact a tilt cab and I've already taken precautions to ensure when we go to tilt the cab it will not crush the siren I've worked my *** off on to restore. That would indeed make me an unhappy camper

    And as far as legal issues with the Q siren and which style is better electric or Mechanical...I Honestly don't really care I am just looking for what little technical advice I can get on this old girl. We want to mount it for traditions sake, and for the fact we all just downright love having them in conjunction with our electrics. Thanks again folks.
    38,ONE more small detail. Once you get it hooked up and WORKING,comtemplate changing out the Electronic for a Whelen 295 Hf Slsa1(17 tones)or a Powercall. Now THAT'S Conjunction,hehe T.C.
    BLSboy likes this.

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    Keep in mind that since a mechanical siren pulls so muck amperage at start up, the gravel shield is not a good enough ground. It is not just shade tree, jack leg or back yard mechanics that make this mistake. Both manufactures I have worked for at times have used the siren mounting botls as a ground. Keep in mind that the gravel shield is bolted to the bumper, the bumper is bolted to a painted bracket, the bracket is bolted to a painted frame extension and the frame extension is bolted to a painted frame rail. All of these bolts and painted parts add up to a bad ground and will at times cause electrical problems with any unit. Run a 2 awg cable from the siren to the same frame rail your alternator is grounded to and you should have no issues. Most of the trucks I have done had an empty 3/8" hole in the rail. I just clean off the paint on both sides of the hole, bolt my 2 awg cable to the siren and the rail and then spray both points with terminal sealant. You would be surpised how much better evrything operates with this quick and easy change,
    The A/C is not cold enough, the warning lights are not bright enough, siren is not loud enough, the C.D. player skips every time we jump a curb, cab doors only open to 89.5* and it's been like this since day one!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    A Pennsylvania jury has awarded a Philadelphia firefighter $100,000 in damages against Federal Signal Corp. for hearing loss associated with Q-Sirens.
    Yeah and that lawsuit had so much weight to it that the Philadelphia Fire Department continues to this day to buy rigs with Federal Q mechanical sirens. There was a period in time where they bought electronics only, but the apparatus was getting into to many accidents, so they went back to mechanicals- and guess what? Less accidents.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Simply not true. Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. That's a simple, documentable, scientific fact.



    Heaven forbid I should post any facts that contradict your imagination.


    Facts, you want facts?

    See this::


    http://www.timberwolfsirens.com/sirenBasics.htm


    Here is the facts!!
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Facts, you want facts?

    See this::


    http://www.timberwolfsirens.com/sirenBasics.htm


    Here is the facts!!
    Good find. That was ONE of the studies I saw. Very informative. T.C.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Facts, you want facts?

    See this::


    http://www.timberwolfsirens.com/sirenBasics.htm


    Here is the facts!!
    Damn you with all your fancy facts!!!

    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  7. #32
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    Hey, where did the good Deputy go with his facts?
    Career Fire Captain
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Something to do with acoustic wavelength and frequency. T.C.
    Correct. And "wavelength and frequency" design elements that have nothing to do with whether they are generated mechanically or electro-mechanically. The effectiveness of a siren is a factor of amplitude, frequency, and where you point it. It has nothing whatsoever with how you generate the sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptOldTimer View Post
    Facts, you want facts? Here is the facts!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Good find. That was ONE of the studies I saw. Very informative. T.C.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Damn you with all your fancy facts!!!
    Seriously? Timberwolf is trying to sell sirens. Those aren't "facts." A kid with a high school physics class under his belt should know that soundwaves -- however they're produced -- don't move in "spiraling square waves"... It's not a "study;" it's an advertisement. Surely you guys know the difference, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    Hey, where did the good Deputy go with his facts?
    I just got back from the NFPA C&E. I'll decide tomorrow if it's worth the effort to dig up the documentation to dispute the urban myth of the Q once again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnee View Post
    Vehicles with electronic sirens tend to out run their sound waves at approximately 55 mph. This phenomena is so common in the industry, they call it sirencide.
    "Sirencide" has nothing to do with the type of siren in use. It's about the fact that the effective audible range of a siren -- any siren -- is relatively fixed and finite. At a given speed, that effective range becomes less than the distance the vehicle covers during a typical driver's reaction time.

    Vehicles equipped with mechanical sirens do not outrun their sound waves.
    This is why I hesitate to bother spending much time on this. Anyone who actually believes that sound waves produced by a mechanical siren are somehow faster that soundwaves produced by an electro-mechanical siren probably doesn't know enough to understand the explanation anyway...
    Last edited by DeputyMarshal; 06-15-2011 at 12:58 PM. Reason: typo
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    This is why I hesitate to bother spending much time on this. Anyone who actually believes that sound waves produced by a mechanical siren are somehow faster that soundwaves produced by an electro-mechanicl siren probably doesn't know enough to understand the explanation anyway...
    I'm no expert, but all sounds travel at the same speed... all other things being equal. Even frequency and wavelength do not change that.

    However, if a sound is louder it will travel further.

    Our Q siren is louder then our PA300 siren.

    In addition, and what I think is the most compelling reason... people know it is a fire truck coming.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 06-14-2011 at 11:47 PM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I know that I'm not alone when I say that I'd like to see your proof.
    Crickets...............
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    Seems I opened a can of worms with the whole, Mechanical siren vs. Electric Siren....Damn it and just when I thought I could avoid stirring the pot
    Opinions expressed by myself here are just that, mine. And not that of ANY organization or service I am affiliated with.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    Seems I opened a can of worms with the whole, Mechanical siren vs. Electric Siren....Damn it and just when I thought I could avoid stirring the pot
    Its all your fault....
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frmboybuck View Post
    Crickets...............
    bump.............
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    hump.....
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

    Always remembering 9-11-2001 and 343+ Brothers

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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    Seems I opened a can of worms with the whole, Mechanical siren vs. Electric Siren....Damn it and just when I thought I could avoid stirring the pot
    You, my friend are a diabolical genius. What’s next? Are you going to say you found a box of nozzles, smooth bore & automatics in the attic & you were wondering what works best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    You, my friend are a diabolical genius. What’s next? Are you going to say you found a box of nozzles, smooth bore & automatics in the attic & you were wondering what works best.
    Damn, my secrets out now! I'm just LA under a different user name

    EVERYBODY ARGUE! DANCE MY PUPPETS DANCE!!!!


    ....Okay moving on, sorry I haven't really said much more on this. Work has me running ragged (Summers here and folks need their beer!) So as soon as I get 20 minutes to test this thing again, I will. Thanks again for every ones help.
    Opinions expressed by myself here are just that, mine. And not that of ANY organization or service I am affiliated with.

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    I don't know how much I trust "studies" on the subject, Federal Signal claims the eQ2B is the same sound as the mechanical version. I'd bet money that I, and probably every other fireman, could tell the difference. So I'd have to say that the sound produced has some sort of difference

    I'd have to hypothesize that the superiority of mechanical sirens (which I believe from personal experience) has to do with the amount of air moved and how far. Air horns also seem to work better than electronic sirens and even mechanical sirens, they move the most air the furthest out of the 3.
    Last edited by nameless; 06-19-2011 at 12:01 AM.

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    still waiting...............
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Yawn............
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    As noted previously, it isn't worth bothering. I'd have to teach a whole physics class just to get some of the knuckle draggers up to the point of understanding why they're wrong.

    Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. This is a matter of physics. You can cling to your urban legends all you want, but you'll still be wrong.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

    The Code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    As noted previously, it isn't worth bothering. I'd have to teach a whole physics class just to get some of the knuckle draggers up to the point of understanding why they're wrong.

    Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. This is a matter of physics. You can cling to your urban legends all you want, but you'll still be wrong.
    We're not asking you for a class. All we're waiting for is a link to any study that proves your point. I am sure that there have been studies conducted between effectiveness and sound waves of both mechanical sirens and electronic sirens.

    BTW, I found some nice reference material several years ago while I was as the NFA that had a study on the exact subject manner. (my Chief at the time was advocating removing the Q's from our rigs)

    It contained data for electronic sirens with one 100w speaker, two 100w speakers, and one 200w speaker. It also had one electromechanical siren (Q2B). It had dB ratings at several distances for locations at all points around the vehicle. It showed that an electronic siren with one 200w speaker had the best dB rating for distance for an electronic siren but it still did not perform as well as the Q2B.

    Suprisingly the study also showed that there were some "weak" areas as far as dB strength off of the corners of the vehicle with the twin 100w speakers. I believe it had to do with the sound waves from the two speakers meeting and causing variations in their strength at various angles.
    I can't believe they actually pay me to do this!!!

    One friend noted yesterday that a fire officer only carries a flashlight, sometimes prompting grumbling from firefighters who have to lug tools and hoses.
    "The old saying is you never know how heavy that flashlight can become," the friend said.
    -from a tragic story posted on firefighterclosecalls.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    You can cling to your urban legends all you want, but you'll still be wrong.
    Prove it. I triple dog dare you. And not with any studies or information provided by any siren manufacturer.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    As noted previously, it isn't worth bothering.
    Translation: I don't have any kind of written proof and am just talking out of my bunghole.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. This is a matter of physics. You can cling to your urban legends all you want, but you'll still be wrong.
    Months later, thanks be to Google, the hilarity which ensues from your inane ignorance is still bringing smiley holiday joy to the knuckle-dragging masses.

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