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Thread: Sireno Model 40010 "The answer to the Q Siren"

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    Default Sireno Model 40010 "The answer to the Q Siren"

    Okay, what do you folks know about the siren in the title? All I've learned so far is its name, the Sireno Model 40010. Somebody on some random internet forum I found called it "Sireno's answer to the Q siren" And I've honestly never seen one before.

    I ask this because I have been handed one by my Captain. I'm suppose to be polishing the old beast up so we can hopefully mount it to our new Ladder truck. When I googled it I found very little info, and one Youtube video. I was surprised when I watched the video that this Siren sounds almost identical to a Q siren. I'm looking forward to getting this mounted to our ladder, once I'm done polishing it of course. But I'd still like to learn a bit more about it, so any history on this siren you guys know of? Anything I should watch out for, such as defects or parts the wear easily? Thanks in advance.

    In pieces:


    The actual Siren outa the shell:


    After the first round of cleaning and polishing...lot of work to do still. It was in ROUGHT shape. I did hook it up to a battery charger and confirms it does work, though it sounded kinda ill on the battery charger.
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    I've seen a couple of these and they are smaller in size compared to the real 'Q's as for the starter motor, but close to it for vane size. Don't know the history of them, so no help there.

    These will still pull 100amps of juice to get them up and going. A battery charger isn't strong enough to let it really scream.

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    It always amazes me that people are so hot to bolt one of those antique boat anchors onto a new piece of apparatus... Seriously? How about a brass bell and a set of carbide headlamps to go with it?
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    It always amazes me that people are so hot to bolt one of those antique boat anchors onto a new piece of apparatus... Seriously? How about a brass bell and a set of carbide headlamps to go with it?
    Maybe, possibly, because it's been proven time and time again through every day use that mechanical sirens are far superior and more effective than electronic ones???

    And before you go all postal on us and start putting up your usual scientific mumbo-jumbo baloney, read the above bold print.
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    Either one of these babies would rival the Federal Q anyday.

    The B&M-SCB, Mars or the S22 makes as much noise.


    Last edited by CaptOldTimer; 07-08-2011 at 01:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Maybe, possibly, because it's been proven time and time again through every day use that mechanical sirens are far superior and more effective than electronic ones???
    Simply not true. Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. That's a simple, documentable, scientific fact.

    And before you go all postal on us and start putting up your usual scientific mumbo-jumbo baloney, read the above bold print.
    Heaven forbid I should post any facts that contradict your imagination.
    "Nemo Plus Voluptatis Quam Nos Habant"

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    Of course you could get on of these old bicycle sirens and hook it up so it can rub a tire!!

    Last edited by CaptOldTimer; 07-08-2011 at 01:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Simply not true. Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. That's a simple, documentable, scientific fact.



    Heaven forbid I should post any facts that contradict your imagination.


    Another one of your fable statements.


    Electronic sirens will never outperform, or be better than mechanical sirens.



    Vehicles with electronic sirens tend to out run their sound waves at approximately 55 mph. This phenomena is so common in the industry, they call it sirencide. Vehicles equipped with mechanical sirens do not outrun their sound waves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Heaven forbid I should post any facts that contradict your imagination.
    I dont need scientific mumbo-jumbo to try and over-ride my personal experiences and observations,(not my imagination) driving apparatus (some equipped with just electronic sirens, but most equipped with mechanical sirens) up and down and across the heavily travelled Route 40 Corridor just north of Baltimore, Maryland. The population hears anything with a Q LONG before they will ever hear anything with a waste of electrons.
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    Alright guys no need to fight over it, Deputy if it makes you feel better we already have an electronic siren on our Ladder and it wont be going anywhere when we mount the 40010...It just wont get used as much anymore.

    Thanks so far guys, I'm kinda piecing things together here and a siren enthusiast on Youtube is helping trouble shoot some issues and come up with a way to properly test the siren.

    Like you said Firemech this siren requires 100amps of juice constantly flowing through it to get it to run right. Our battery charger wasn't giving me nearly enough to get the old siren running like it should. I intend to test the siren out again today if the weather clears up a bit, I'll let ya know how it goes.
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    With all the electronics on a new truck you could have problems. Place a 100 amp load on the system & it may go into load shed mode. It may not be good to have the warning lights turn off every time you crank that thing up. Who ever is doing the install on a new truck better have approval in writing from the boss.
    Last edited by rfdlou; 06-11-2011 at 10:00 PM. Reason: be have

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    I found an article I had seen a while back, but had to do a search for it.

    See below....


    http://www.professionalcar.org/electsirens-404

    Myth

    Electro-Mechanical sirens use too much current.

    Like the arguments used against electric driveline retarders, this claim is based on the gristle-brained notion that simply bolting a real siren on your rig will automatically add a continuous 100 amp load to your electrical system, killing the batteries and wreaking havoc with sensitive electronics and communications equipment.


    FACT: Real sirens only draw current during wind-up and full wail. Electronic sirens draw current continuously while activated, albeit at a lower rate. That lower rate is misleading; It has been estimated that six to eight electronic sirens would be needed to do the work of one real siren.


    The real battery killer is the operator who leaves his vehicle idling for extended periods of time while lit-up like the Las Vegas Strip. Every 50 watt halogen lamp you put on your vehicle adds about 4.2 amps of load while lighted. The continuous siren load myth is often invoked by people trying to justify the use of large alternators and/or battery arrangements. While I advocate using six-pack battery arrangements and large alternators, I cannot condone misleading people about imaginary electrical burdens.


    A few years ago, while touring the repair facility of a large fire department on the southern coast of California, I noticed a lot of holes on apparatus where real sirens had obviously once been mounted. When queried, the shop foreman (a good friend) told me that his department had decided to remove their real sirens to reduce battery failures. I asked, Truthfully now, have you noticed any difference?” He sheepishly grinned and said “No, not really”. Within a year real sirens began to mysteriously reappear on the rigs.


    When it comes to load-induced battery failures, it is important to remember this: 1) Alternators are intended to sustain loads. They are not battery chargers. 2) No matter how large, alternators do not produce full current capacity at idle.


    Incidentally, load managers are becoming increasingly popular on fire apparatus. These devices are a great innovation. They sequentially switch lighting loads on and off minimizing voltage spikes. When battery voltage begins to drop, loads are sequentially shed until voltage stabilizes. Additionally, some private ambulance operators are enjoying success with isolated siren battery circuits.


    The most popular real siren draws 105-125 amps at full wail, a momentary load imposed only a fraction of the time during a response. A Los Angeles manufacturer guarantees their real sirens will draw 70 amps or less at full wail, which is less than the continuous load of many emergency warning light systems.
    Stay Safe and Well Out There....

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    I'm laughing...

    Anyone with five minutes of experience using one knows that a Q siren is superior.

    I've never done any science experiments, but it seems a heck of a lot louder.

    More importantly, its a distinctive "fire truck" sound. Even most lay people know that noise means a fire truck is coming.

    As for a bell, yes, we have those on our apparatus as well. More for tradition as one bell is passed from old to new as we upgrade apparatus over the years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Simply not true. Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. That's a simple, documentable, scientific fact.
    I want to see THAT document. BS flag has been thrown. They ARE superior in all aspects.

    E38... It doesn't take alot to wind up a full Q. Usually a standard battery with a 100 amp/hour will be fine for running it, fully charged. I use 2 group 31's to run the one I have for FD events, and never had a problem.

    COT.... I'll ask if I need help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Simply not true. Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. That's a simple, documentable, scientific fact.



    Heaven forbid I should post any facts that contradict your imagination.
    Better go back and do some more research Deputy. They spent a lot of time and money on SEVERAL studies and it HAS been proven. Something to do with acoustic wavelength and frequency. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    With all the electronics on a new truck you could have problems. Place a 100 amp load on the system & it may go into load shed mode. It may not be good to have the warning lights turn off every time you crank that thing up. Who ever is doing the install on a new truck better have approval in writing from the boss.
    DOUBTFUL. As a Ladder it likely has a 200+ amp alternator and 6 group 31 batteries. Shouldn't cause any problem if used correctly. T.C.

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    I can understand the desire to install this piece of history on you new rig. You have spent a bit of time working on the old girl. It may well be superior to what is installed now. However, I see two problems one is the new apparatus warrantee, the other is liability exposure. Make a modification to any system & you may let them off the hook for any failures. You could simply hold off until you’re out of warrantee. The liability exposure never goes away. You can complain all you want this is the world we live in. Even if the department pays for the Lawyers, you have to appear for depositions & court on your dime. 1100 Firefighters have filed hearing loss claims against Federal’s Q siren even though they have had hearing loss warnings for years. A Pennsylvania jury has awarded a Philadelphia firefighter $100,000 in damages against Federal Signal Corp. for hearing loss associated with Q-Sirens. Why would any department or you personally risk getting involved in something like this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyMarshal View Post
    Simply not true. Mechanical sirens are not inherently superior to electronic sirens. That's a simple, documentable, scientific fact.

    Heaven forbid I should post any facts that contradict your imagination.
    I know that I'm not alone when I say that I'd like to see your proof.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    I can understand the desire to install this piece of history on you new rig. You have spent a bit of time working on the old girl. It may well be superior to what is installed now. However, I see two problems one is the new apparatus warrantee, the other is liability exposure. Make a modification to any system & you may let them off the hook for any failures. You could simply hold off until you’re out of warrantee. The liability exposure never goes away. You can complain all you want this is the world we live in. Even if the department pays for the Lawyers, you have to appear for depositions & court on your dime. 1100 Firefighters have filed hearing loss claims against Federal’s Q siren even though they have had hearing loss warnings for years. A Pennsylvania jury has awarded a Philadelphia firefighter $100,000 in damages against Federal Signal Corp. for hearing loss associated with Q-Sirens. Why would any department or you personally risk getting involved in something like this?
    Item 1, Because they WORK. Item two,WEAR hearing protection,its CHEAP. Three, before you worry about the liability get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it. And what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty? We've had Q's here for a LONG time,the public is at greater risk for hearing loss than the guys riding the rig.Mount them LOW and out front,the sound projects FORWARD. T.C.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EngineCO38 View Post
    Okay, what do you folks know about the siren in the title? All I've learned so far is its name, the Sireno Model 40010. Somebody on some random internet forum I found called it "Sireno's answer to the Q siren" And I've honestly never seen one before.

    I ask this because I have been handed one by my Captain. I'm suppose to be polishing the old beast up so we can hopefully mount it to our new Ladder truck. When I googled it I found very little info, and one Youtube video. I was surprised when I watched the video that this Siren sounds almost identical to a Q siren. I'm looking forward to getting this mounted to our ladder, once I'm done polishing it of course. But I'd still like to learn a bit more about it, so any history on this siren you guys know of? Anything I should watch out for, such as defects or parts the wear easily? Thanks in advance.

    In pieces:


    The actual Siren outa the shell:


    After the first round of cleaning and polishing...lot of work to do still. It was in ROUGHT shape. I did hook it up to a battery charger and confirms it does work, though it sounded kinda ill on the battery charger.
    One other detail.IF that is a tilt cab rig make sure you leave enough space to tilt it.Otherwise you WILL be an unhappy camper. T.c.

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    Capt............that BC thingy............oh ya .................loud as hell .............2 of them mounted next to each other and POOF ! you are a super star ! Deputy I am delcaring SHINANIGANS on you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Item 1, Because they WORK. Item two,WEAR hearing protection,its CHEAP. Three, before you worry about the liability get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it. And what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty? We've had Q's here for a LONG time,the public is at greater risk for hearing loss than the guys riding the rig.Mount them LOW and out front,the sound projects FORWARD. T.C.
    "Because they WORK" No doubt about it. Maybe to well. Over 1100 brothers claiming injury from a similar unit may be something to watch out for.

    "the public is at greater risk for hearing loss" I wonder if any Lawyer has tried that angle yet?

    " get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it" Great advice, could not agree more. I don't like it because I enjoy doing this stuff & could probably do a better job.

    "what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty?" EngineCO38 wrote that the rig was "new." I assumed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    One other detail.IF that is a tilt cab rig make sure you leave enough space to tilt it.Otherwise you WILL be an unhappy camper. T.c.
    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    "Because they WORK" No doubt about it. Maybe to well. Over 1100 brothers claiming injury from a similar unit may be something to watch out for.

    "the public is at greater risk for hearing loss" I wonder if any Lawyer has tried that angle yet?

    " get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it" Great advice, could not agree more. I don't like it because I enjoy doing this stuff & could probably do a better job.

    "what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty?" EngineCO38 wrote that the rig was "new." I assumed.
    You know what they say about assuming right?

    Okay let me clarify a few things here folks. First of all, the truck is "new to us" not brand new. Its a 1994 E-One 110' Ladder we purchased from a town in Mass after it was traded in or a cool-aid brand Aerial device There is no warranty to void, and the instillation would be handled by someone who knows what the crap they are doing. Not by a bunch of us at the station who...kinda think we know what we're doing.

    Rescue, it is in fact a tilt cab and I've already taken precautions to ensure when we go to tilt the cab it will not crush the siren I've worked my *** off on to restore. That would indeed make me an unhappy camper

    And as far as legal issues with the Q siren and which style is better electric or Mechanical...I Honestly don't really care I am just looking for what little technical advice I can get on this old girl. We want to mount it for traditions sake, and for the fact we all just downright love having them in conjunction with our electrics. Thanks again folks.
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    If it's the answer to the "Q" siren, does that make it an "A" siren?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfdlou View Post
    "Because they WORK" No doubt about it. Maybe to well. Over 1100 brothers claiming injury from a similar unit may be something to watch out for.

    "the public is at greater risk for hearing loss" I wonder if any Lawyer has tried that angle yet?

    " get it OK'ed by the factory and have their Servicenter hang it" Great advice, could not agree more. I don't like it because I enjoy doing this stuff & could probably do a better job.

    "what makes you think the rig already isn't OUT of warranty?" EngineCO38 wrote that the rig was "new." I assumed.
    Lou,I've devoted over half my life to the Fire service.If you look at the Rig the siren is set on for a mount check,it NOT a "new" design rig. Points to the OLD guy for observation. Second: What do YOU know about the FS lawsuit? I've spent quite a lot of time on it and it started with a couple "brothers"claiming injury and snowballed to where it is today. I would hazard a guess that at least a FEW of the claims are frivilous. Take a LONG look and tell me what you think.Not that it matters but we have used Q's since 1972 on all our front line apparatus. And will continue to until FS no longer produces the unit. Use a sound meter and check your rigs INSIDE the cab. If the DB exceeds the daily allowance,wear ear protection,none of ours do(exceed the limit). Or don't use a Q,which,where we work, would be detrimental to our crews safety.Take a look at my stats,I didn't just climb on a rig yesterday. T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 06-13-2011 at 09:47 AM.

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