Thread: Injury Accident

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    Default Injury Accident

    How many trucks do you take when you respond to a injury accident?

    The Department I am with only allows us to take two apparatus, our rescue truck and a support truck with a maximum of 3 fireman each. We have argued with the Chief to allow us to take more apparatus then once the first truck arrives on scene to call off the other trucks if they are not needed but our chief has more of a "wait and see" attitude and prefers we standby the station incase more people and trucks are needed, but my feeling is when you are talking injury accident every second counts!

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    Quote Originally Posted by iggerz View Post
    How many trucks do you take when you respond to a injury accident?

    The Department I am with only allows us to take two apparatus, our rescue truck and a support truck with a maximum of 3 fireman each. We have argued with the Chief to allow us to take more apparatus then once the first truck arrives on scene to call off the other trucks if they are not needed but our chief has more of a "wait and see" attitude and prefers we standby the station incase more people and trucks are needed, but my feeling is when you are talking injury accident every second counts!
    Why on earth do you need more then 1 piece of apparatus?

    Sounds like your Chief is a smart guy.
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    If you have more than one or two injuries per accident or more than one vehicle involved in the accident......3 fireman (one truck) are hardly enough to run the spreaders, stablize the vehicle, hold "C" spin on the victums when the EMT's do their assesment, do traffic controll and the 20 or so other things that fireman in the rural parts of the country are required to do when the arrive on scene in remote area's!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Why on earth do you need more then 1 piece of apparatus?

    Sounds like your Chief is a smart guy.

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    We roll our engine (6 personnel) and heavy rescue (5 personnel) on MVC's. Should we want/have/need the extra personnel, they'll respond with our EMS chase vehicle, which carries 4 personnel.

    I've never liked the "wait and see" attitude at all, I'd much rather turn around the vehicles that I don't need, rather than wait on them.
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    Default EMT's

    I should mention that our EMS is a completly separate organization. They are full-time with one station and two EMT's staffed 24/7. The next EMS station is 15 miles away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iggerz View Post
    If you have more than one or two injuries per accident or more than one vehicle involved in the accident......3 fireman (one truck) are hardly enough to run the spreaders, stablize the vehicle, hold "C" spin on the victums when the EMT's do their assesment, do traffic controll and the 20 or so other things that fireman in the rural parts of the country are required to do when the arrive on scene in remote area's!
    If you say so... we do it with one Squad Company, as many ambulances as needed and the police.

    Our Squad company rolls with six firefighters has basic extrication tools. It handles all but the more complicated pins.

    If it's an extrication call, we'll get the light rescue truck with 2 additional ems folks.

    There is only so much room around a vehicle for firefighters to operate. Quite honestly, I'd rather limit the units to what is indicated then roll the entire "barn".
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 06-21-2011 at 07:33 PM.
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    We respond with an engine (usually 4 guys) our QRV ( usually 2 EMTs ) and a rescue and BLS rig are dispatched from a neighboring community, ALS if needed. And most of the time LifeFlight is notified to be on standby just in case due to the rural area.
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    Guys remember, not every jurisdiction is blessed with a platoon of police officers to handle traffic control needs. In my old town, we got ONE police officer. It takes a minimum of two people to handle alternating traffic flow, and potentially a third if there is an intersection within the controlled environment. That's one apparatus worth of guys right there. We KNEW we will be doing traffic control, it is SOP, so trucks and personnel were always on the first alarm so we can get a handle on it immediately.

    Some will say "screw 'em all, just close the road." This is not practical when the scene does not require it and most don't. And it is ridiculous to do so when not necessary, especially when its the only road.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Guys remember, not every jurisdiction is blessed with a platoon of police officers to handle traffic control needs.
    I responded based on the OP. To me this sounded like guys who wanted to ride the BRT code three.. even if not needed. You know, whackers.

    That is probably unfair, based on the followup post, but that was my initial read.
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    How much traffic control is needed in "rural remote" areas?

    Are your members certified EMT's?

    Perhaps your Chief is worried about budget issues? (fuel???)
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    To answer the original quesiton, a rescue box here gets a Heavy Rescue Squad or Rescue Engine and 2 ambulances on initial dispatch. If reported serious they add and additional Heavy Rescue Squad and the medic (ALS) unit.

    Minimum staffing on the Squad is 3, but we can get as many as 8. If we have the staffing, we will run an engine with the Squad for calls in our first due.

    Fortunately, we have pretty good police coverage, so traffic control is not a concern other than making sure the accident lane is properly blocked by the apparatus. I can see an issue with too many emergency vehicles causing more traffice problems than the extra people solve. When that happens is very dependant on the situation and location.

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    "rural remote area" is up for the users interpretation. Lets go with "cow country" since I think that's probably how you're interpreting it. Remember many very remote rural areas with no people and lots of cows contain major routes between populated areas. Jut because few people live there doesn't mean few people drive though it.
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    For an MVA, we usually roll our heavy rescue truck as well as our ford f350 support truck for additional manpower/traffic control. If anything else is needed, it's rolled after the IC sizes up the situation and makes the call.

    In the vast majority of the cases, there are about 8 firefighters on the scene (5 in rescue, 3 in support) and this is generally all that is required.

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    To answer the original question,

    An "accident with injuries" gets EMS only.

    A "Rescue Box" gets a rescue company, an engine company for the scene, and (if applicable) an engine company for the LZ.

    Anything else (including fire police) is special called by the IC.
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    Core area - Heavy Rescue and Engine 1 from Station 1.

    Rural Area - Heavy Rescue and closest volunteer Rescue-Engine (Tool Equipped) and/or Engine 1 from Station 1.

    Interstate - Rescue Rescue and Engine 1 from Station 1 plus a Rescue-Engine from volunteer station responding opposite direction of reported travel.

    If vehicle is reported to involve an 18-wheeler, and extra engine may also roll depending on the information.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-22-2011 at 05:41 PM.
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    An injury MVA here usually gets an engine and a rescue, pretty much county-wide.

    EMS is a mixed bag - some independents, some FD-based, and even a commercial outfit. We're served by an independent that can usually get two rigs out in fairly short order (first one is staffed 24/7).

    My department will roll the engine (2 people) and the light rescue (2-4). The tanker rolls if there's an indication of fire in the dispatch. No hydrants, and while 1000 gallons ought to be able to handle most anything, the reserve is comforting. It can also serve as a blocking vehicle if necessary.

    Since we don't have a hydraulic tool, we'll get a mutual aid rescue as an automatic. As soon as the first unit or chief arrives and determines that no extrication is needed, they'll be cancelled.

    We're in 'cow country' and law enforcement attendance can be a mixed bag, depending on what's going on elsewhere in the county. Thus we usually get to do the traffic control thing - really a given, even if multiple law enforcement units show up. Even moreso if they decide to take a few hours to do a reconstruction.

    We have a busy two-lane state highway running straight through the middle of our district, and a notorious intersection on that highway that accounts for a goodly number of our calls. As soon as we hear the location we know it's probably gonna be a "good" one.
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    For an MVA we'll send a single Engine + BLS (and ALS if determined by 911 dispatcher)
    For an MVA with potential for entrapment add the Rescue
    For an MVA on the highway/interstate add an additional Engine to the above.
    Staffing is 3-6, usually 4.

    Additional resources called in by IC.
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    We roll everything until "command" reduces the response. Pretty simple.
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    My old department would be a heavy rescue, light rescue/ems, and two engines.
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    Most of the FDs around here send an engine and a rescue along with one ambulance unless more detailed information was provided. PD response isn't bad, usually at least two patrol cars.
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    It all depends on what the caller tells the 9-1-1 operator.

    MVA no entrapment - 1 Engine

    MVA with entrapment - 1 Engine 1 Rescue Co.

    MVA Major incident on an major interstate, 2 Engines, Rescue Co and a Foam/Water Tanker

    Of course the third service ALS ambulance company will respond X numbers of buses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    We roll everything until "command" reduces the response. Pretty simple.
    What does "everything" entail?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    What does "everything" entail?
    First out of 1 station is a rescue engine, other station is a ladder. 2nd out would be an engine from both. Then you get a utility/pickup truck followed by vans.

    Our response is same for structure fire, alarms, etc. All trucks roll, in their normal order, until cancelled.

    EMS agency handles the ambulances.
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    My volly station rolls an engine automatically. If we were all at the station we'd roll our rescue and our brush truck just to move the personnel (Each of our apparatus has a capacity of 2 firefighters). Additinaly units might would respond POV. Reported fire would roll a tanker.

    If we're not all at the station someone's going to get a pumper en-route. Depending on the call additional units might go to the station to get additional apparatus (Resuce, Tanker, etc) or go directly to the scene in their POV. Anyone who's route of travel took them past the station would probably stop and pick up a piece of apparatus. In our town we do not have lights on POV so by picking up the apparatus we can respond emergency traffic.

    Depending on severity our second due can essentially duplicate everything we've got if necessary.

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    Light rescue & one engine, except along US 23 where, if it sounds necessary, we'll often roll a second engine to help as a traffic barrier. We would do that if we had information that the accident was in both the northbound and southbound lanes, for example.

    A big thing for us is to avoid getting apparatus tangled up in traffic and then having to fight our way out if a second call comes in.

    More common than that is to need a landing zone for the accident. I have been standing by at the station and then had to take an engine past an accident scene to get to our predesignated LZ. If I'd already been there, I might have been blocked in by everybody & his brother.
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