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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    What do you mean "we?"

    Since when have you ever been a professional?
    ...... For most of my volunteer career.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I was just in the can reading a NIOSH LODD report where a rural department with 5 members on scene made an interior attack into a house with an intial report of heavy smoke from the attic. Why make entry? Prime example of operating interior with inadequate manpower, most likley with limited experience in training, in a situation, given the resources where the outcome has likely been determined before they arrived. Those are the types of situations addressed in "Everybody Goes Home".
    You realize it's not the above that people have issues with - safety should be well-entrenched on the fireground. Take acceptable risks - not unacceptable ones. But rather the following that really raises people's gall:

    And yes, operating off-duty without PPE, tools or equipment, IMO, does fall into that catagory. For that reason, my size-up will almost always say no. As cruel and heartless as it may sound to some, it simply ain't my problem if I don't have the skills, resources and equipment to deal with it. It may be cold but yes, my life, and our lives have equal priority with the victim, and concequences to us have equal value with concequences to the victim(s).
    This attitude just makes you a coward. You are, by virtue of having gone through a number of firefighting training courses such as confined space rescue and medical first response, better trained than the public. So, barring anyone around with proper protective gear, you'd rather just let someone die than get your hands dirty. Even worse, you may let other people without any training try to help, thereby possibly adding them as a victim as well. Nobody is saying you have to dive into a flashover to pull out granny, but you should be at least willing to help out in a situation where you end up being the most qualified person on-scene to do so.

    There are few places in the fire service for cowboys, but absolutely no f*cking place in the fire service for cowards.

  3. #43
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    Booby, thank God you have nothing to do with the defense of this great nation. it is widely understood and accepted, while not at all liked, that in war, good men die to defend this nation. This "EGH" bullshiite, which was stolen from the FOOLS, has done some good, reinforcing better eating habits, working out, but to use it as an excuse to not put your pretty little princess *** on the line is downright disgraceful. You took an oath (I presume) to save lives and protect property. SO DO IT!!
    AJ, MICP, FireMedic
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    This message has been made longer, in part from a grant from the You Are a Freaking Moron Foundation.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by 105 View Post
    You realize it's not the above that people have issues with - safety should be well-entrenched on the fireground. Take acceptable risks - not unacceptable ones. But rather the following that really raises people's gall:



    This attitude just makes you a coward. You are, by virtue of having gone through a number of firefighting training courses such as confined space rescue and medical first response, better trained than the public. So, barring anyone around with proper protective gear, you'd rather just let someone die than get your hands dirty. Even worse, you may let other people without any training try to help, thereby possibly adding them as a victim as well. Nobody is saying you have to dive into a flashover to pull out granny, but you should be at least willing to help out in a situation where you end up being the most qualified person on-scene to do so.

    There are few places in the fire service for cowboys, but absolutely no f*cking place in the fire service for cowards.
    During my career I have probably assisted in emergencies 40 or 50 times off-duty or out of district including medical emergencies, MVAs on the roadway and a cardiac arrest at a famous NYC ballpark. I have no problems in doing what I can in situations where my personal safety is at not risk. That being said, I generally have a full set of PPE excluding SCBA in my vehicle plus at least one and often 2 20lb ABC extinguishers and a few prying tools. If I can perform an operation safely with those items, I will make an attempt, however, if I cannot be assured of my safety without further equipment, tools, or PPE, it's not my responsibility to attempt a rescue.

    There are issues with fire district personnel operating as first respionders if we run intio a situation in both neighboring cities that are very long standing, and because of that, it is very rare that I will stop or assist at an event in those places if the FD has not yet arrived on scene. Most of the fire districts have no issues with trained personnel stopping at at ascene prior to thier arrival and rendering care or begiining a rescue within the confines of the equipment and training they bring to the scene in thier POV.

    When in my wife's vehicle I have no PPE available to me except for a bunker coat, helmet and a 10 lb extinguisher.

    The simple fact is we have responsibilities to our famailies as well as the victims. This ies especially true where financial issues do come into play. Sorry, but I do have a responsibility to provide for them as well as my responsibility to the victim. In this state there are very limited financial protections for personnel operating off-duty or as a volunteer. If putting the financial needs of my family ahead of a supposed duty to the public off-duty makes me a coward, so be it.

    Using some of the posters logic, wouldn't career firefighters living in a combo or volunteer district have an obligation to volunteer in thier home areas? After all, they do have an obligation to use thier skills to save lives off-duty, right?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-27-2011 at 10:54 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLSboy View Post
    Booby, thank God you have nothing to do with the defense of this great nation. it is widely understood and accepted, while not at all liked, that in war, good men die to defend this nation. This "EGH" bullshiite, which was stolen from the FOOLS, has done some good, reinforcing better eating habits, working out, but to use it as an excuse to not put your pretty little princess *** on the line is downright disgraceful. You took an oath (I presume) to save lives and protect property. SO DO IT!!
    War is a very different situation than firefighting.

    And by the way, in none of the 9 departments I have served with, have I never sworn an oath.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    War is a very different situation than firefighting.

    And by the way, in none of the 9 departments I have served with, have I never sworn an oath.
    Wrong to the first and doesn't surprise me on the second.

    The fire scene is the only thing close to war in the civilian world. It's not very different at all. How would I know you ask, maybe you should check out my profile. Have you been to war Mr. LA? If not, then please do the rest of us military guys a favor and don't try to pretend that you know a damned thing about it.

    I know that when I was at Dalton a took an oath when I swore in. I swore to protect the citizens of that good city that provided me with one of the best lifestyles in the world. I call it a lifestyle because it's not just a job, you have to live it. No, I've never taken an oath at a vollie department, I'm sure some have though. But just about every paid department I know of worth it's salt makes their employees take an oath or swear in.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Wrong to the first and doesn't surprise me on the second.

    The fire scene is the only thing close to war in the civilian world. It's not very different at all. How would I know you ask, maybe you should check out my profile. Have you been to war Mr. LA? If not, then please do the rest of us military guys a favor and don't try to pretend that you know a damned thing about it.

    I know that when I was at Dalton a took an oath when I swore in. I swore to protect the citizens of that good city that provided me with one of the best lifestyles in the world. I call it a lifestyle because it's not just a job, you have to live it. No, I've never taken an oath at a vollie department, I'm sure some have though. But just about every paid department I know of worth it's salt makes their employees take an oath or swear in.
    In war, you are in combat fighting for the lives of your buddies. You have very few choices as about performing your duty as lives of the other members of the unit are more often than not depending on your actions.

    In war, actions and risks are often dictated by the actions of the enemy. In war, actions are often dicatated by the objectives and battle plans of your superiors, or their superiors, or thier superiors.

    In firefighting, the vast majority of the time there are no lives at stake, only property. This is especially true in the rural enviroment where the sad reality is if there are victims inside on our arrival, which is VERY rare, due to the often extended response times and often extent of the fire conditions, they are dead long before our arrival, and our actions will have no effect on the outcome. We do have a choice, and very often it's the wiser choice not to commit interior crews in essentailly a body recovery operation that could result in the detah or injury to fire department personnel.

    I can honestly say in 31 years of doing this, I have encountered a situation with victims inside less than 10 times. And maybe another 10 of reported victims that turned out to be inaccurate.

    An there are times when you run into a rescue that you simply are not trained or equipped for. Again, we have a choice ... our safety v. the victim, and there are times when we simply have to say no and at times, accept the death of the victim, esopecially if it's likely ghe/she isn't viable given the situation, if we are not trained and/or equipped for the operation.

    As far as fires where property is envolved, we always have a choice. Always. We always have the right to say no and simply extinguish the fire from the exterior.

    So no, firefighting is not like combat as we more often tyhan not we have a variety of choices entailing a variety of risk. We do have choices in how much action we take and how much we decide to risk in just about every situation, inlike combat, where the situation is often forced upon the troops.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-27-2011 at 11:52 AM.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    In war, you are in combat fighting for the lives of your buddies. You have very few choices as about performing your duty as lives of the other members of the unit are more often than not depending on your actions.
    Hmmm, souds suspiciously like being interior or being the vent crew. Other firefighter's lives depend onr YOUR actions, or your case, in-action.

    In war, actions and risks are often dictated by the actions of the enemy. In war, actions are often dicatated by the objectives and battle plans of your superiors, or their superiors, or thier superiors.
    Again, a lot like when you're interior and te fire takes a turn for the worse. YOu have to make a decision, stay or go? CAn I take the enemy down, or do I need to retreat?

    In firefighting, the vast majority of the time there are no lives at stake, only property. This is especially true in the rural enviroment where the sad reality is is there are victims inside, which is VERY rare, due to the often extended response times and often extent of the fire conditions, they are dead long before our arrival, and our actions will have no effect on the outcome. We do have a choice, and very often it's the wiser choice not to commit interior crews in essentailly a body recovery operation that could result in the detah or injury to fire department personnel.
    ANd nobody here has stated to go interior for a lost cause either. But you have stated time and time again that you wouldn't if you thought in the least it might be marginal. Turd.

    An there are times when you run into a rescue that you simply are not trained or equipped for. Again, we have a choice ... our safety v. the victim, and there are times when we simply have to say no and at times, accept the death of the victim, esopecially if it's likely ghe/she isn't viable given the situation, if we are not trained and/or equipped for the operation.
    Yep, and tere are conflicts we run into that we aren't specifically trained for. It's called adapt and overcome. YOu can do tis in a safe manner.

    As far as fires where property is envolved, we always have a choice. Always. We always have the right to say no and simply extinguish the fire from the exterior.
    Yeah, and you have the choice to retreat if the battle is seen to not be in your favor.

    So no, firefighting is not like comabt as we often have choices in how much action we take and how much we decide to risk.
    So do our commanders in combat, much like the IC. So again, you're wrong!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Hmmm, souds suspiciously like being interior or being the vent crew. Other firefighter's lives depend onr YOUR actions, or your case, in-action.

    Obviously once you decide and commit to an interior operation, you need to perform ventialtion to support the interior operation, and you need to take specific actions interior to accomplish the stragety. Yes, if you go interior, everyone's actions may depend on the pump operator, the vent crew or any other tactical objective.

    However, my point is that we do have several options in addition to interior ops including doing nothing ansd simply allow the building (or vehicles, brush, trash, etc.) to burn, deck gun operations only and exterior handlines/moniters only. In combat if your superiors say attack and overrun this xxxxxxx there are minimal options for the unit commander as he as been ordered to achieve a specific objective.




    Again, a lot like when you're interior and te fire takes a turn for the worse. YOu have to make a decision, stay or go? CAn I take the enemy down, or do I need to retreat?

    Again, we have several options short of interior attack. Sure pulling out of an interior attack and going defensive if things go bad is an option, but it's not an option upon arrival.



    ANd nobody here has stated to go interior for a lost cause either. But you have stated time and time again that you wouldn't if you thought in the least it might be marginal. Turd.

    I have stated time and time again that marginal situations are very dependant on manpower, water supply, training, experience and command structure. I have stated that my combo department is much more capable than my current VFD due to a much higher level of training and experience, as well as a superior manpower response, and yes, I would be far more likely to make an interior attack responding with them as compared to my current VFD.That being said, my previous VFD was as capable as my current combo department, especially once we implemented an AMA plan, and I would have no issue operating interior with them as I currently do with my combo department.

    So yes, in the current situation on both my combo and volunteer department where resources, training and experience levels vary from response to response, all decisions regarding risk v. benefit will vary based on the resources.

    Bottom line is if I can not assure 100% safety crew safetywith the resources, manpower, training and experience I have on scene, or I know is in the process of responding, I will not as the initial IC commit personnel interior into amarginal situation, especially if there is no civilian life issues. If there are life issues, my evaluation of victim viability will guide my decision. The potential cost to us is simply too high.



    Yep, and tere are conflicts we run into that we aren't specifically trained for. It's called adapt and overcome. YOu can do tis in a safe manner.

    So my VFD gets dispatched to a trench rescue, and we have no equipment or training in trench rescue? How exactly do we adapt and overcome. Sure I can call my com,bo department which has very limited trench rescue experience and no real equipment, but do you suggest we enter the trench despite the lack of training? Is that your idea of firefighter safety? What about an open water rescue in a large pond with no water rescue equipment or open water training we just happen to be driving by .... Exactly how do we adapt and overcome? And exactly how do we do this in a safe manner with no training or water rescue equipment?



    So do our commanders in combat, much like the IC. So again, you're wrong!
    Diffenrence is you IC may be 5 level above your squad leader, and that IC has objectives that he expects to be carried out. The fireground structure has far fewer levels and far fewer people to answer to.

    Again this thread started out about civilians making rescues. Sometimes they go right. Other times they go very wrong and we end up with several more victims. IMO, it's not something we should encourage unless you have the resources to dela with those additional possible victime.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-27-2011 at 01:48 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Anyway, back on track. Many accolades to the brave individuals that made the rescue. WIsh they had the applause smiley on here.
    Last edited by firefightinirish217; 06-27-2011 at 04:31 PM.

  11. #51
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    Anyway, back on track.

    Ya, let's do that!
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  12. #52
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    Never ask us how we can try to save some ones life and we'll never ask how you can't.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Never ask us how we can try to save some ones life and we'll never ask how you can't.

    Any more folks that just can't let go after I offer to move on?

    Once again .. Back on track?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Any more folks that just can't let go after I offer to move on?

    Once again .. Back on track?
    You didn't offer, I did. All you did was quote me and agree. YOu were quite content to continue the arguement.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    You didn't offer, I did. All you did was quote me and agree. YOu were quite content to continue the arguement.
    \

    I was referring to Tajm's comment, not yours.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Any more folks that just can't let go after I offer to move on?

    Once again .. Back on track?
    Apparently you're one of them since you continued to engage in it. Shouldn't you be cowering in a corner somewhere?
    Even the burger-flippers at McDonald's probably have some McWackers.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    ...... For most of my volunteer career.
    You said "most." What about the rest of the time?
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    You said "most." What about the rest of the time?
    Will be quite honest as the first few years of my career I wouldn't consider myself professional as due to my location access to quality training resources was somewhat limited.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmfire View Post
    Apparently you're one of them since you continued to engage in it. Shouldn't you be cowering in a corner somewhere?
    Ahhhh .. Witty insults.

    If that makes you feel like more of a man, have at it good sir.

    I've made a simple offer and yet there are some that just can't stop.
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  20. #60
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    Because your very existence tarnishes the very essence of our fire service. I would be humiliated if a civilian read any of your post and assumed you spoke for all of us. You prove to know little of our profession, your cowardice is matched by your hubris, and you offer absolutely nothing of value to our service. Your hypocrisy was of comedic value but it has become the brightest beacon of your pathetic manifest. The biggest mistake you made in your attempt to "change our views" was that we'd all be as unitelligent as you and that anyone here were looking for reasons to be a coward.

    There are men here. Men with values and morals to which we feel a desire to serve our fellow man, regardless if we are on the clock or not. It's a Pitt that even you would be given the same amount of help from the very people you breathe to discredit. I can only hope that, in your time of need, you are helped by a person with the same views as you and he finds your life to be "not worth the risk".
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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