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  1. #61
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    Had a long response typed but decided to just let it go.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


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    OK,

    Folks, As in SOOOOO many areas of life, people are allowed to have their own personal and VARIED points of view....

    This constant barrage of L.A. bashing and his retorts is just getting seriously rediculous...thread after thread, topic after topic....it always seems to go the same way.....

    Can;t everyone just accept that someone might have a varied view point....and leave it at that.......

    Although as a career FF, I have on numerous times made the effort to help at MVC's or med situations while off duty.....I view it as MY choice, MY personal comfort level....I work with several other FF's that have clearly stated that THEY never stop or help outside of work.....and that is THEIR choice....I may not agree with it, or understand it......BUT I accept that that is how they feel.....

    EVERY person will view a situation differently, its all personal perception/experience etc.....so blanketly calling someone a coward is pretty harsh...and it has been done here time after time......

    I know what what has been said by people in posts....I can read and have done so........and in reality, One side of this "bashing" is NOT more right than the other..just a position from the opposite side of the spectrum....

    This forum has TONS of great posts and great info and discussions....and seriously, anyone could learn alot from them....but man, the constant derailing of good topics, the bashing and the baiting is soooo incredibly predominant that it detracts heavily from the whole forum.

    Just look at the differences as a learning point....there is NO benifit or gain to be made at all by the snotty comments or bashing. from either side.

  3. #63
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Will be quite honest as the first few years of my career I wouldn't consider myself professional as due to my location access to quality training resources was somewhat limited.
    Best as we can tell, nothing has changed. Making your claim of being a "professional" untrue.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  4. #64
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Had a long response typed but decided to just let it go.
    You should take the "let it go" route more often.
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
    -Big Russ

    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  5. #65
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    OK,

    Folks, As in SOOOOO many areas of life, people are allowed to have their own personal and VARIED points of view....

    This constant barrage of L.A. bashing and his retorts is just getting seriously rediculous...thread after thread, topic after topic....it always seems to go the same way.....

    Can;t everyone just accept that someone might have a varied view point....and leave it at that.......

    Although as a career FF, I have on numerous times made the effort to help at MVC's or med situations while off duty.....I view it as MY choice, MY personal comfort level....I work with several other FF's that have clearly stated that THEY never stop or help outside of work.....and that is THEIR choice....I may not agree with it, or understand it......BUT I accept that that is how they feel.....

    EVERY person will view a situation differently, its all personal perception/experience etc.....so blanketly calling someone a coward is pretty harsh...and it has been done here time after time......

    I know what what has been said by people in posts....I can read and have done so........and in reality, One side of this "bashing" is NOT more right than the other..just a position from the opposite side of the spectrum....

    This forum has TONS of great posts and great info and discussions....and seriously, anyone could learn alot from them....but man, the constant derailing of good topics, the bashing and the baiting is soooo incredibly predominant that it detracts heavily from the whole forum.

    Just look at the differences as a learning point....there is NO benifit or gain to be made at all by the snotty comments or bashing. from either side.
    Hi. Welcome.

    Give it 6 months, you'll eat your words. Maybe when he attacks another lodd, discredit a save, or state your departments tactics are wrong and archaic, you'll come around.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  6. #66
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Give it 6 months, you'll eat your words. Maybe when he attacks another lodd, discredit a save, or state your departments tactics are wrong and archaic, you'll come around.
    I've been here A LOT longer than 6 months, and I disagree with 98% of what LA pontificates, but bashing him and his department does get really, really old.

    He has a completely different view of the fire service, and far different expectations of the members and officers of his department, and we all know that. Everyone's tried to change his mind for years, and it hasn't worked. When the hell do we get to move onto something more productive?
    Career Fire Captain
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  7. #67
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    I've been here A LOT longer than 6 months, and I disagree with 98% of what LA pontificates, but bashing him and his department does get really, really old.

    He has a completely different view of the fire service, and far different expectations of the members and officers of his department, and we all know that. Everyone's tried to change his mind for years, and it hasn't worked. When the hell do we get to move onto something more productive?
    Correct

    Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 06-28-2011 at 09:34 PM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  8. #68
    Forum Member EastKyFF's Avatar
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    These bystanders exercised good judgment, I think. It was not a confined area for them or the victim, so their ability to 1) remove themselves if it hit the fan, and 2) quickly remove the victim, were such that their risk to themselves was fairly low. Not zero, but pretty low. And given the very high likelihood of death or major injury to the cyclist if they did not act, it's a pretty easy scale to balance.

    Nice job, fellers!
    "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet.Ē
    --General James Mattis, USMC


  9. #69
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefightinirish217 View Post
    Wrong to the first and doesn't surprise me on the second.

    The fire scene is the only thing close to war in the civilian world. It's not very different at all. How would I know you ask, maybe you should check out my profile. Have you been to war Mr. LA? If not, then please do the rest of us military guys a favor and don't try to pretend that you know a damned thing about it...
    couple of Vets I know just ****ed on your name.

    They are embarrassed a war Vet would compare fire scenes to war zones.


    I think you may be over reaching on that one.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  10. #70
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Ps - nice job by the people.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  11. #71
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    Just one minor point here .....

    I never made a single comment about the civilians in this situation doing the right or the wrong thing. They did what they felt was right for them at the time.

    I did state that there are times when civilains attempt more complicated rescues, and become victims themselves, which complicates the situation for responders, especially if there are limited resources available. In this situation there were minimal risks.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights FF View Post
    OK,

    Folks, As in SOOOOO many areas of life, people are allowed to have their own personal and VARIED points of view....

    This constant barrage of L.A. bashing and his retorts is just getting seriously rediculous...thread after thread, topic after topic....it always seems to go the same way.....

    Can;t everyone just accept that someone might have a varied view point....and leave it at that.......

    Although as a career FF, I have on numerous times made the effort to help at MVC's or med situations while off duty.....I view it as MY choice, MY personal comfort level....I work with several other FF's that have clearly stated that THEY never stop or help outside of work.....and that is THEIR choice....I may not agree with it, or understand it......BUT I accept that that is how they feel.....

    The funny thing is that I have never failed to stop at an accident scene, or assist at a medical emergency before the arrival of the FD or EMS out of my district. In fact, I have even extinguished several small vehicle fires prior to the arrival of the responsible FD and assisted w/ extinguishment operations at several vehicle and structure fires, sometimes quite far beyond my district. The trick is in every situation I had turnout gear and extinguishers in my vehicle, which gave me the tools to do the job properly and the PPE to protect myself. Without either, no, I would not take action, but not once has that situation arose.

    Much of this is based on my position regarding interior operations in abandoned structures, interior operations in marginal situations and one real world scenerio where I stated flatly that I would not have intervened due to likely peronal and family concequences. I do take our safety as the priority in what we do., which conflicst with others who view "the job" as the priority.


    EVERY person will view a situation differently, its all personal perception/experience etc.....so blanketly calling someone a coward is pretty harsh...and it has been done here time after time......

    I know what what has been said by people in posts....I can read and have done so........and in reality, One side of this "bashing" is NOT more right than the other..just a position from the opposite side of the spectrum....

    This forum has TONS of great posts and great info and discussions....and seriously, anyone could learn alot from them....but man, the constant derailing of good topics, the bashing and the baiting is soooo incredibly predominant that it detracts heavily from the whole forum.

    Just look at the differences as a learning point....there is NO benifit or gain to be made at all by the snotty comments or bashing. from either side.
    You'll get used to things I say being twisted, taken out of context, etc, etc.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-28-2011 at 05:05 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Hi. Welcome.

    Give it 6 months, you'll eat your words. Maybe when he attacks another lodd, discredit a save, or state your departments tactics are wrong and archaic, you'll come around.
    Thanks for the welcome there tajm,

    I've seen LOTS of LA's posts...I know what he says and how he STATES he thinks.....

    AND I;ve seen just as many or more posts slamming LA, critisising him, his department ...hell even his whole parish....

    Like I said...I guess I view it as this......HE is an individual, HE is ENTITLED to his RIGHT to his own views AND his right to voice them.....SAME AS ANYONE ELSE here or anywhere.....

    I don;t NEED to agree with his ideas or statements...they are his views......I have my own.....IF L.A chooses to view other Department's Ops as "archiac" so be it.....again his views....they really don;t affect me in the least.......he doesn;t make precidents or SOG's for my Dept......so honestly I could really care less what he thinks......

    IF He chooses to view a LODD in his way ...so be it.....I've seen him say he uses LODD's as a "learning / teaching" tool.....so be it......thats HIS way, his views.......

    As long as he doesn;t slam the fallen FF or disrespect his family, then I can live with it....again simply because HE doesn;t effect anything to do with my Dept., my life or my family and community....

    Like I said, I don;t agree with some of what he says, even most of it......BUT he shouldn;t be attacked all the time simply because some here have developed a personal grudge over the internet....and have a bunch of comments and posts derailing everything all the time, his or others.....

    I;m a big boy, I can figure this all out on my very own.......and I have been here long enough to know what gets posted, both LA's and from the others....saddly this seems to go back at least 10 years or so.......hasn;t this gone on for long enough?......

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones42 View Post
    couple of Vets I know just ****ed on your name.

    They are embarrassed a war Vet would compare fire scenes to war zones.


    I think you may be over reaching on that one.
    Well, I guess they're entitled to their opinon man. I never said they were one and the same. I said it was the closest thing in the civillian world to war. Perhaps they misunderstood my intentions of the comparisons. Yes, I know war is totally separate from the fire service. But the comparisons are there. The love of your brothers, watching your brother's back, adapting to changing situations, doing your duty regardless of any fear you may feal at the moment, etc.

    Tell those guys I apologize for insulting them unintentionally, I wasn't trying to say that they are exactly the same. If that's not the reason, I'm not quite sure what the problem is.

    Anyway, make sure they get my apologies for offending them in anyway, was just try to make a point about a person's appointed duty brother.

  15. #75
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Got PM, all good.
    "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFuss View Post
    That is not a minor point, it is your entire existence. Any time someone posts on a save, or a tactic, or civilians SAVING SOMEONES LIFE you can't seem to say bravo, good work and MOVE ON as you claim to be trying to do. You pick apart everything and bring it all back to "another time when a similar thing happened and it turned out bad so they were wrong". I get sick of the back and forth in most topics on these forums like everyone else... mostly because its the same guy against everyone else the majority of the time.

    My father in law would not accept that his hearing was going, (gone is more like it) every single person in his family would tell him but he just wouldn't believe them. I even tried joking about it with him to be a little less rude than, "DAD YOU'RE FRIGGIN DEAF, I JUST ASKED YOU SOMETHING 5 TIMES AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN TURN YOUR HEAD!" Needless to say, at a physical, he had his ears checked, 70% loss both sides.... I guess when a doctor says it to you ya listen a lil better....

    However, Chiefs, Assistant Chiefs, Deputy Chiefs and many other guys with years and years more experience than you in the same field have told you many times about your skewed views. You can have an opinion, but when it comes to the manner you apply that opinion to your work, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

    Also, I knew before you ever said it that you never swore an oath to protect life and property. I'd bet you'd reject swearing an oath to protect anything that comes with some sort of risk involved. Theres a word for that in the dictionary...comes after COW.
    Awesome post, Brother.. awesome post!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  17. #77
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Awesome post, Brother.. awesome post!
    I'll SECOND that. Move Fuss to the Head of the serving line. T.C.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFuss View Post
    That is not a minor point, it is your entire existence. Any time someone posts on a save, or a tactic, or civilians SAVING SOMEONES LIFE you can't seem to say bravo, good work and MOVE ON as you claim to be trying to do. You pick apart everything and bring it all back to "another time when a similar thing happened and it turned out bad so they were wrong". I get sick of the back and forth in most topics on these forums like everyone else... mostly because its the same guy against everyone else the majority of the time.

    My father in law would not accept that his hearing was going, (gone is more like it) every single person in his family would tell him but he just wouldn't believe them. I even tried joking about it with him to be a little less rude than, "DAD YOU'RE FRIGGIN DEAF, I JUST ASKED YOU SOMETHING 5 TIMES AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN TURN YOUR HEAD!" Needless to say, at a physical, he had his ears checked, 70% loss both sides.... I guess when a doctor says it to you ya listen a lil better....

    However, Chiefs, Assistant Chiefs, Deputy Chiefs and many other guys with years and years more experience than you in the same field have told you many times about your skewed views. You can have an opinion, but when it comes to the manner you apply that opinion to your work, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

    Also, I knew before you ever said it that you never swore an oath to protect life and property. I'd bet you'd reject swearing an oath to protect anything that comes with some sort of risk involved. Theres a word for that in the dictionary...comes after COW.
    So do you dispute the the fact that often when civilians attempt rescues, things go bad, and they become victims or patients themseleves?

    Do you deny that can become the case?

    And do you think it's a good idea for civilians to attempt these rescues without training or PPE?

    That's really all the statement you quoted stated.

    If you feel it's a good idea to give these civilians accolades despite the the fact that the attempts they make, if unsuccessful, can greatly complicate our job, especially in areas with limited rescue and EMS capabilities, that's your opinion. I disagree that we should make these people heroes, and instead, should do our best to discourage untrained, unequipped and unprotected civilians from getting into harm's way and potentially turning a single victim rescue into a multiple victim rescue.

    In our area, we don't have the resources to pull 4 or 5 victims from a house fire, a confined space or a pond when there was only one victim to start with, so I guess I'm just silly that way as it will be my problem when I pull up either as a firefighter or as the IC (especally on my VFD) with multiple victims and very limited resources. Yes, that kind of stuff concerns me as it's a real possibility in this area.

    And yes, I do bring up the times, both here and within my department, when things didn't go so well, as there have been countless situations nationwide where have had to rescue multiple civilian would-be (and unequuipped off-duty fire and EMS) rescuers, or recover thier dead bodies, because thier attempts failed. Sorry, but that is very relevant in the discussion. The public certainly needs to be educated that things can go very bad in civilian rescue situations, and yes, it's something we need to think about as well.

    My only point with the oath was that many departments, especially volunteer departments, do not have new members swear an oath. The duty is the same with or without an oath, so I simply don't see the relevance in that.

    As far as risk, I'm willing to take it when there is measuarable gain comensurrate with the lives of our members, and those members have all the tools - training, experience, tools and resources - to manage the risk in a safe manner.If any one of those is missing, yes, we do have to take great pause and think very carefully about the concequences to us before we act.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 06-29-2011 at 05:34 PM.
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  19. #79
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So do you dispute the the fact that often when civilians attempt rescues, things go bad, and they become victims or patients themseleves?

    Do you deny that can become the case?
    Yes it can happen.. just as it can with fully trained and equipped firefighters ... and there are those civilians who are willing to do the right thing and take that risk for their fellow man.

    And do you think it's a good idea for civilians to attempt these rescues without training or PPE?

    That's really all the statement you quoted stated
    .

    They do it.. maybe its a once in a lifetime moment, but yet they still do it.. not for accolades, not for rewards.. but for their fellow human beings.

    If you feel it's a good idea to give these civilians accolades despite the the fact that the attempts they make, if unsuccessful, can greatly complicate our job, especially in areas with limited rescue and EMS capabilities, that's your opinion. I disagree that we should make these people heroes, and instead, should do our best to discourage untrained, unequipped and unprotected civilians from getting into harm's way and potentially turning a single victim rescue into a multiple victim rescue.
    If they don't make an attempt, the job automatically beomes more "complicated"...

    In our area, we don't have the resources to pull 4 or 5 victims from a house fire, a confined space or a pond when there was only one victim to start with, so I guess I'm just silly that way.
    Yes... you are silly. You pull out one victim, then go in for the others if humanly possible. You seem to think that every firefighter who doesn't prescribe to your "vision" of the fire service is is hell bent on making every call a suicide mission... I intend to get my pension and enjoy it for a long long time.. and proper training and continuing education will help ensure that I, and many of my Brothers and Sister do just that.

    And yes, I do bring up the times, both here and within my department, when things didn't go so well, as there have been countless situations nationwide where have had to rescue multiple would be civilian (and unequuipped off-duty fireand EMS) rescuers, or recover thier dead bodies because thier attempts failed. Sorry, but that is very relevant in the discussion. The public certainly needs to be educated that things can go very bad in civilian rescue situations, and yes, it's something we need to think about as well.
    In fairness.. do you bring up the cases of successful rescues? I would think not, as it does not fit your agenda.

    My only point with the oath was that many departments, especially volunteer departments, do not have new members swear an oath. The duty is the same with or without an oath, so I simply don't see the relevance in that.
    Do you see the relevance in anything?

    As far as risk, I'm willing to take it when there is measuarable gain comserurate with the lives of our members, and those members have all the tools - training, experience, tools and resources - to manage the risk in a safe manner.
    Since you feel that your people don't need to be trained to any form of a national standard...
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 06-29-2011 at 05:40 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  20. #80
    Forum Member IronValor's Avatar
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    The fact of the matter is this video showed that there is still some good in people. How many times have others just stood by and did nothing while their fellow human being is suffering or in need?

    I have always said that if given the chance it is every individuals whether sworn, Civvy, Paid, Volunteer, or otherwise to do something.

    I cannot count the number of times I have been thankful there has been a citizen there to lend a helping hand.

    Thanks again Chief for the great post
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

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