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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    At my old volunteer: about 30 on paper with a good responding core of 15, all ff1 with 10-11 ff2.

    My new one is my part time 8-5 and also volunteer when not at career. It's a massive district (a whole parish) with 12 stations and about 290 on the roster. I'd dare say around 200 are ff1. The ones who aren't certified are the older guys who've been there for 30 years or so and it wasn't required then. They also don't go interior due to health and/age but are damn good officers or pump operators. Education is done in house and through lsu's online system with certification at lsu normally on a vacation or the like from their full time jobs. Many of their bosses realize they are the ones protecting their homes and businesses and sometimes just give them paid time off. It works because it's expected and enforced. Your expect sub-standard boot fillers and that's what you get.

    Don't take it as a knock on your department as I don't know them
    But your "it's impossible to do" bull**** doesn't hold water. It's possible but you find it easier to make excuses.
    The point is we could very easily teach FFI as our baseline if we chose to, but we have never decided to do that. The process we teach actually takes longer ansd is just as valid as they have to demonstrtate practical skills and take a 100 question department designed test.

    They now also have to complete a computer-based FFI program complete with unit tests to complete the process.

    Instead we teach the elements of FFI that apply to us and add elements of FFII that are most applicable to our operations. It's actually more comprehensive as FFI, but they don't receive a piece of paper for it. Since there is no state requirement for FFI, it simply makese sense to train our new members based on the needs of the district v. the needs of a piece of paper.

    Again, it works very well for us.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When you can get all 50 states on board requiring FFI, and the certification earned in one state is 100% valid in all other 49 states, it will actually be a national standard, and we can talk about it. Until then, it's just a piece of paper.
    Not really. Those pieces of paper represent the activity level that shows a certain amount of effort has been expended to achieve a level of expertise and competence.

    Thing that elude you.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Not really. Those pieces of paper represent the activity level that shows a certain amount of effort has been expended to achieve a level of expertise and competence.

    Thing that elude you.
    We have the same documentation on the training hours expended for our members to complete our current rookie training.

    And given they are working on the same set of skills plus some others not included, it ends up with the same result.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Actually, it is only right for a second twice a day.
    Semantics....
    You're right, Ken.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The point is we could very easily teach FFI as our baseline if we chose to, but we have never decided to do that. The process we teach actually takes longer ansd is just as valid as they have to demonstrtate practical skills and take a 100 question department designed test.

    They now also have to complete a computer-based FFI program complete with unit tests to complete the process.

    Instead we teach the elements of FFI that apply to us and add elements of FFII that are most applicable to our operations. It's actually more comprehensive as FFI, but they don't receive a piece of paper for it. Since there is no state requirement for FFI, it simply makese sense to train our new members based on the needs of the district v. the needs of a piece of paper.

    Again, it works very well for us.
    Keep dreaming...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Keep dreaming...
    No more point in discussing this as our training system works for us.

    And as I said, when FFI becomes 100% transferrable from state to state, as it was meant to be, maybe I'll start thinking of it as a national standard, but right now, that's not the case.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have the same documentation on the training hours expended for our members to complete our current rookie training.

    And given they are working on the same set of skills plus some others not included, it ends up with the same result.
    This is great if one believes additional training isn't required after one's rookie training.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is great if one believes additional training isn't required after one's rookie training.
    Why would you say that?

    So it's not possible to instruct new members on some of the "basics" of vehicle extracation, industrial operations and technical rescue as part of a basic training package?

    It's also not possible to expand "basic" fire operations in our area beyond what is taught in ordinary FF1 classes?

    Yes we expand our basic training into some areas that FF1 does not cover because it's a significant part of our run package. And yes, there are elements of FF1 that we do not teach as part of our basic training because we either don't have, and never will have the tools as we have no need for them in our area, or we simply do not respond to those types of fires or those situations because of our area.

    After we teach them the basics of areas generally not taught in FF1, we send them to outside classes to expand that basic knowledge once they compelte our basic package. These areas include the above mentioned industrial firefighting, extracation, technical rescue and wildland operations. We use LSU Fire Training and TEEX to expand the "basic" knowledge after intial training on a regular basis.

    Again, they get all of the basic skills they need to operate in our area during intial training.

    If they want to expand thier knowledge, we take care of them in terms of teaching or sending them to FFI.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    I am not going to scan through all the posts to find out why, but how do we turn a thread on some bystanders making a save to LA's veiw on FFI&II? This place cracks me up.
    ~Drew
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  10. #110
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    I have had my epiphany; I now am in complete understanding of LA's thought process. Train your crews for nothing, so they are incapable of doing anything. This way, none of the crews can be held accountable and there is no liability. Simple, effective, genius.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I have had my epiphany; I now am in complete understanding of LA's thought process. Train your crews for nothing, so they are incapable of doing anything. This way, none of the crews can be held accountable and there is no liability. Simple, effective, genius.
    I'll ask ..
    How is training your members to do the tasks that apply from FFI, which by the way is about 70% of the material and skills, plus train them to do tasks from FFII as part of the initial training process training them to do nothing?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why would you say that?

    So it's not possible to instruct new members on some of the "basics" of vehicle extracation, industrial operations and technical rescue as part of a basic training package?
    Not the point. Funny stuff.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  13. #113
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    LA,

    Why do you make your members who seek promotion take FF1? If it's good enough for them, why is it not good enough for the rest of the members? Aren't both your officers and firefighters responding to the same calls and facing the same hazards?
    Career Fire Captain
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    LA,

    Why do you make your members who seek promotion take FF1? If it's good enough for them, why is it not good enough for the rest of the members? Aren't both your officers and firefighters responding to the same calls and facing the same hazards?
    I have answered this several times.

    The primary reason is that LSU Fire Training requires FFI for their advanced technical rescue classes.

    Secondly FFI (and FFII) is required for Instructor I, and subsequently, Officer I, both of which have tremendous value for our officers. As an potential department instructor, an officer should have a broader knowledge base than a firefighter.

    We encourage our firefighters to take Firefighter I as it does have general knowledge value, but it's our feeling that the general knowledge is simply not needed at the firefighter level.

    Again, I'll ask a simple question as an example. What value does knowing how to use a Rabbit Tool, or K-tool have when we do not own one and most likely never will have the need to own one?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Not the point. Funny stuff.
    So then what is the point?

    We have a specific training program built around our needs, not some mythical "national standard", that likely will never be a national standard as the states can't even agree what a FFI course entails.

    Again, when all 50 states accept a FFI certificate as valid without retests or even having to pay a fee, FFI will have value as a "national standard". Until then, it's just a piece of paper.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    We encourage our firefighters to take Firefighter I as it does have general knowledge value, but it's our feeling that the general knowledge is simply not needed at the firefighter level.
    Firefighter 1 is the BASICS
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    Your "system", beliefs and tenets are totally flawed and run contrary to the rest of the fire service believes.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    Isn't that a quote from Captain Edward Smith?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    There's an old vaudeville line that says the best comedy writes itself.

    You prove it daily.

    Fortunately other professions don't subscribe to your mindset.
    Last edited by scfire86; 07-02-2011 at 10:22 AM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Your "system", beliefs and tenets are totally flawed and run contrary to the rest of the fire service believes.
    So the tell me why the majority of the states do not require FFI for volunteers and some do not even require it for career members?

    Why are there states that require no firefighter training? Why are there states that require anywhere from 24-36 hours as minimum training?

    Where is this universal groundswell demanding that FFI become the "standard"? Why is it opposed by volunteer chiefs and departments throughout the country?

    If the feeling that FFI should be the "standard" why is it is not that universal in all 50 states? How can it be a "standard" if it's not required in all states?

    Why can't a take a FFI from Montana and walk into a department in FL and have it not accepted as a training standard? Why do I have to retest in some states? Why do I have to retake the whole course in others?

    Everyone here who talks about it being the standard ... Where is the evidence that it has been accepted as such nationwide?

    After all ,,,, Isn't a standard something that everyone requires?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2011 at 10:43 AM.
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    There's an old vaudeville line that says the best comedy writes itself.

    You prove it daily.

    Fortunately other professions don't subscribe to your mindset.
    The problem is to many, firefighting is not a profession.

    Yes, I said it. The vast majority of the firefighters in the country do it not as a profession, but as something they enjoy doing in addition to their profession. They don't do it as a job. They do it as an advocation, and in some cases, yes, a hobby.

    I have said it more than once and I'll say it again. You want equal standards, then let's level the playing field. Career personnel attend the academy without being paid. They do not receive training while in the station at work, but instead they must attend all required training while off the clock on their days off, just like volunteers have to do.

    You want equal standards, fine. But let's not have one side being paid to attend the academy to meet your "minimum training standards"and being paid to train while on the job to meet advanced and continuing education requirements, while the other side is somehow expected to meet the same standards working a fulltime job, and in some cases, a second job, while attending both initial and continuing education requirements in their off-time.

    Be a man and refund the portion of your salary that you were paid to train if you want the volunteers to be at your level.

    I'm sure not going to expect my volunteers to have the same level of training as I do, or any other career firefighters does, given that we are almost always paid to attend training as a part of our normal job duties. That's simply not a reasonable expectation.

    I fully believe in reasonable and relevant training standards for volunteers based on the level of response and area served, much of which should be determined by the local FD. Are there core areas such as building construction, fire behavior, SCBA, basic self-rescue ans RIT that every firefighter should have? Absolutely. But there are other areas such as commercial building construction, alarms, sprinklers, complex forcible entry and even hydrants and relay pumping that folks here are stating as a basic that a rural firefighter may never experience in his career. Those are the types of things that can be eliminated in a "rural FFI" either to shorten to course or allow additional time for expanded water shuttle and brush fire operations training. It's all about using the time on the stuff they respond to and the stuff they respond with.

    But the training needs to be reasonable to the time available. And requiring the same training as a career member that faces a far deeper chest of hazards isn't.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2011 at 12:35 PM.
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    Removing any part of training is the same as removing a weapon from your arsenal or a tool from your toolbox.. Its better to have that training and not need it than to need that training and not have it. While some of that training I.E. Relaying pumping, Aircraft Firefighting etc. may not seem important right now, A little further down range it might come in handy such as Mutual Aid situations and God Forbid maybe a Firefighter wanting to go some place else or be a more complete firefighter.

    " Training to fight the Fires you fight " Is the stupidest one thing any individual has ever said. Can anybody name a Job they caught that was exactly like the other one?

    The fire service is dynamic it is always changing and no two incidents are alike. While I do agree that some of the training that we put in can seem boring and non applicable I remind Myself that its just a small part of the big picture.


    The attitude of < We have done this for x amount of years and its worked > has no place within the fire service. It may have worked 8 times out of 10 but there is always that chance of it not working and Im not certain that I would like to gamble with My Mens lives like that...
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So the tell me why the majority of the states do not require FFI for volunteers and some do not even require it for career members?
    Because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why are there states that require no firefighter training? Why are there states that require anywhere from 24-36 hours as minimum training?
    Because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why is it opposed by volunteer chiefs and departments throughout the country?
    Because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If the feeling that FFI should be the "standard" why is it is not that universal in all 50 states? How can it be a "standard" if it's not required in all states?
    It's not, because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why can't a take a FFI from Montana and walk into a department in FL and have it not accepted as a training standard? Why do I have to retest in some states? Why do I have to retake the whole course in others?
    Because most people don't settle for the minimum, unlike you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Everyone here who talks about it being the standard ... Where is the evidence that it has been accepted as such nationwide?
    It is not the standard because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    After all ,,,, Isn't a standard something that everyone requires?
    Hey it's always worked for us so why change it, or even try to change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes, I said it. The vast majority of the firefighters in the country do it not as a profession, but as something they enjoy doing in addition to their profession. They don't do it as a job. They do it as an advocation, and in some cases, yes, a hobby.
    You single handly do more HARM to the volunteer community than some of the biggest rejects and dirtbags that inhabit it. I would almost rather have a thief as a volunteer than you. Least I KNOW what the thief is and will do. At least the thief won't swear to do all he can to promote good conduct and crap than harm his own cause like you manage to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You want equal standards, fine. But let's not have one side being paid to attend the academy to meet your "minimum training standards"and being paid to train while on the job to meet advanced and continuing education requirements, while the other side is somehow expected to meet the same standards working a fulltime job, and in some cases, a second job, while attending both initial and continuing education requirements in their off-time.
    Yet somehow the volunteers in Virginia can somehow do all this, without the career side not being paid. Virginia Beach has the volunteers meet the SAME standards as the paid, Boxalarm187 up in Henrico, same story. Amazing, it CAN be done when you are not willing to accept excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm sure not going to expect my volunteers to have the same level of training as I do,
    Sadly the moment they walk in the door for the first time, they have exceeded your level of training.
    Last edited by JohnVBFD; 07-02-2011 at 02:24 PM.
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    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The problem is to many, firefighting is not a profession.

    Yes, I said it. The vast majority of the firefighters in the country do it not as a profession, but as something they enjoy doing in addition to their profession. They don't do it as a job. They do it as an advocation, and in some cases, yes, a hobby..
    You are really grasping at straws and it shows. Maybe you see this when you look in the mirror but it's extremely moronic to assume it of all of us. Any side jobs my fellow career firefighters have is literally a job on the side, to pay for their kids private school, buy toys, or supplement our below average pay. On the other end, there are volunteers who can't afford to NOT be doing what their career entails but still have a desire to answer their calling. The statement you proclaimed is very stupid and ignorant but I know you'll never admit to it so moving on...


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have said it more than once and I'll say it again. You want equal standards, then let's level the playing field. Career personnel attend the academy without being paid. They do not receive training while in the station at work, but instead they must attend all required training while off the clock on their days off, just like volunteers have to do..
    Ok, and then make it mandatory for volunteers to answer on designated days. Make them outline their districts. Make them respond regardless of holiday, weather, or occasion.



    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You want equal standards, fine. But let's not have one side being paid to attend the academy to meet your "minimum training standards"and being paid to train while on the job to meet advanced and continuing education requirements, while the other side is somehow expected to meet the same standards working a fulltime job, and in some cases, a second job, while attending both initial and continuing education requirements in their off-time.
    .
    You are trained on the job EVERYWHERE. Your point here makes no sense. Many career departments entry isn't as easy as walking up and saying "I'd like to join". I was never refunded for the days of work I missed going interviews. I was never paid while I trained and ran every day in preparation for the academy. Guess what, many recruits still work their departments at the academy. Many can't work a Second job due to the 5 days a week schedule. Are you so ignorant that you think it's just easy money? How do you propose to survive a 14 week mandatory academy and feed a family?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Be a man and refund the portion of your salary that you were paid to train if you want the volunteers to be at your level..
    We pay them back everytime the tones go off and a battalion of highly trained men will undoubtedly respond.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm sure not going to expect my volunteers to have the same level of training as I do, or any other career firefighters does, given that we are almost always paid to attend training as a part of our normal job duties. That's simply not a reasonable expectation.
    .
    Same level? No. I agree. I am not as highly technical as a fdny Ff, but we all started at the same place. It's the same in sports. They pay you to perform and if you don't, you're cut. Fire burns the same everywhere, it's not fair to throw a guy to the wolves because you don't want to take the initiative to make sure he's mentally and physically competent. You can pluck a first year ff from my volunteer and swap him for a guy at my career and no one would know the difference. That's the way it should be. Sure, the career received training in driver ops, hazmat, bls and such but should a volunteer choose to pursue training in other areas, he's free to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I fully believe in reasonable and relevant training standards for volunteers based on the level of response and area served, much of which should be determined by the local FD. Are there core areas such as building construction, fire behavior, SCBA, basic self-rescue ans RIT that every firefighter should have? Absolutely. But there are other areas such as commercial building construction, alarms, sprinklers, complex forcible entry and even hydrants and relay pumping that folks here are stating as a basic that a rural firefighter may never experience in his career. Those are the types of things that can be eliminated in a "rural FFI" either to shorten to course or allow additional time for expanded water shuttle and brush fire operations training. It's all about using the time on the stuff they respond to and the stuff they respond with.

    But the training needs to be reasonable to the time available. And requiring the same training as a career member that faces a far deeper chest of hazards isn't.
    But that's YOUR rural district and yours alone. In my rural district, we still shut down sprinklers. We still do all types of forcible entry. We still do commercial buildings. And there are still hydrants here.

    You see no contradiction in your statements? I'll admit to the difficulties in training volunteers to a set standard but it IS possible. It's being done all over. You make a standard so everyone is on the same page. Our career guys grow and learn the intricacies of urban firefighting as do our volunteers deal with rural firefighting, but at the end of the day they are still a nationally accepted rank of firefighter who happens to specialize in their setting. Can our volunteers deploy a highrise pack? Sure.
    As well as our city/career guys? Nope.
    Can our city guys deal with a water shuttle? Yup.
    Are we as finely tuned as the volunteers? Nope.
    We can all do it but we are suited to our environment. Your plan would make fish out of water at a simple mutual aid.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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