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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    Removing any part of training is the same as removing a weapon from your arsenal or a tool from your toolbox.. Its better to have that training and not need it than to need that training and not have it. While some of that training I.E. Relaying pumping, Aircraft Firefighting etc. may not seem important right now, A little further down range it might come in handy such as Mutual Aid situations and God Forbid maybe a Firefighter wanting to go some place else or be a more complete firefighter.

    True, to a limited extent. I can look at the building stock in both my combo and volunteer districts and anticipate the issues i will face. if I am doing pre-plans every year and just not pencil whipping them, I know the level of forcible entry traing buildings in my district require. I know the types of hose stretches they require and what kind of water supply issues I will face, and I can build my training around that. I fully understand that there are wild cards, but if you are paying attention to what is being built, most of those wild cards can be anticipated, planned for and trained for. As I stated, if they want to think about down the road, we will teach or pay for FFI and FFII. Some of our volunteers are happy where they are and some are thinking about employment as a FF. We will train them either way.

    " Training to fight the Fires you fight " Is the stupidest one thing any individual has ever said. Can anybody name a Job they caught that was exactly like the other one?

    Again, knowing your area and anticipating your hazards. I know that we will never fight a 3 story motel fire unless they build one in our district, or a large apartment building fire, or a hundred other hazards that the city next to us may catch. We do know that we will do more brush fires than anyone else and stand a good chance of catching a fire at the refinery in our district. And because of that, they are part of our initial skills package.

    The fire service is dynamic it is always changing and no two incidents are alike. While I do agree that some of the training that we put in can seem boring and non applicable I remind Myself that its just a small part of the big picture.

    Again, we fight 5x the number of brush fires than structure fires, so we train for that. We do 3x the vehicle extrication. We need those skills. We don't need sprinklers, alarms and standpipes. We know what we run on.



    The attitude of < We have done this for x amount of years and its worked > has no place within the fire service. It may have worked 8 times out of 10 but there is always that chance of it not working and Im not certain that I would like to gamble with My Mens lives like that...
    Again, we know what we run.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2011 at 06:11 PM.
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    It's amazing how many times I have read this thread... or threads that were pretty much identical to it.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    You are really grasping at straws and it shows. Maybe you see this when you look in the mirror but it's extremely moronic to assume it of all of us. Any side jobs my fellow career firefighters have is literally a job on the side, to pay for their kids private school, buy toys, or supplement our below average pay. On the other end, there are volunteers who can't afford to NOT be doing what their career entails but still have a desire to answer their calling. The statement you proclaimed is very stupid and ignorant but I know you'll never admit to it so moving on...

    The fact is the majority of the firefighters in the US are volunteers, who do it for a variety of reasons, and some are more motivated than others. There will always be volunteers who go above and beyond, volunteers who meet the minimum and sadly, volunteers who do not have a tremendous amount of drive and fall somewhat below the minimum. They all have a place and they all will end up at different levels of training because of their motivations, family needs and work flexibility. I am fully in favor of requiring training minimums that guarantee safety, bit I am not willing to place requirements that exceed what a baseline firefighter needs to operate in their departments if that means we will lose an excessive number of members to get there.



    Ok, and then make it mandatory for volunteers to answer on designated days. Make them outline their districts. Make them respond regardless of holiday, weather, or occasion.

    Some departments do have duty nights. Some departments do require a minimum call percentage. In some cases, those work well. In others, not so much.



    You are trained on the job EVERYWHERE. Your point here makes no sense. Many career departments entry isn't as easy as walking up and saying "I'd like to join". I was never refunded for the days of work I missed going interviews. I was never paid while I trained and ran every day in preparation for the academy. Guess what, many recruits still work their departments at the academy. Many can't work a Second job due to the 5 days a week schedule. Are you so ignorant that you think it's just easy money? How do you propose to survive a 14 week mandatory academy and feed a family?

    I have no issue with on the job training. However, you can't take one group and pay them for training, and take another group which has a job outside of the fire service, and expect them to have the same level of training meeting the requirements on their free time. It's simply not realistic for most people. Sure, there are some, but your are limiting the number of people available to you.


    We pay them back everytime the tones go off and a battalion of highly trained men will undoubtedly respond.



    Same level? No. I agree. I am not as highly technical as a fdny Ff, but we all started at the same place. It's the same in sports. They pay you to perform and if you don't, you're cut. Fire burns the same everywhere, it's not fair to throw a guy to the wolves because you don't want to take the initiative to make sure he's mentally and physically competent. You can pluck a first year ff from my volunteer and swap him for a guy at my career and no one would know the difference. That's the way it should be. Sure, the career received training in driver ops, hazmat, bls and such but should a volunteer choose to pursue training in other areas, he's free to do so.

    That's great. We have several members that are career members elsewhere. We have several pure volunteers that are quite skilled. And we have some volunteers with the minimum skills, but we find a place for them and understand that in an environment where there are differing levels of time for training, there will be differing skill levels. it's very much a part of a volunteer department.


    But that's YOUR rural district and yours alone. In my rural district, we still shut down sprinklers. We still do all types of forcible entry. We still do commercial buildings. And there are still hydrants here.

    Ding. Ding. Ding. Which is exactly why training standards need to be local. We have no needs for certain skills that you require. And there are skills that we require that you have no need for. Yet you really want to certify everybody, everywhere with a basic cookie-cutter skill package that may not have what either one of us needs. Sorry, skills are local and training requirements should be local as well.

    You see no contradiction in your statements? I'll admit to the difficulties in training volunteers to a set standard but it IS possible.

    The trick is our volunteers are being trained to a set standard - Our standard. It's the standard that we as a department have set based on our operational needs. The complete probation everyone must complete the basic skills checklist. Most complete it. A few linger and have to be pushed. And some never complete it and leave the department.


    It's being done all over. You make a standard so everyone is on the same page.

    Exactly why we have the skills checklist.


    Our career guys grow and learn the intricacies of urban firefighting as do our volunteers deal with rural firefighting, but at the end of the day they are still a nationally accepted rank of firefighter who happens to specialize in their setting.

    Problem is there is no nationally recognized rank of Firefighter. If they went to FL, they would have to retake the class. If they went to state Z, they may have to pay $100. If they went to state X, they may have to retake the test. If they went to Shreveport or Dallas, they would have to retake the academy. So where is the national standard? Where is the national rank of Firefighter?

    Can our volunteers deploy a highrise pack? Sure.
    As well as our city/career guys? Nope.
    Can our city guys deal with a water shuttle? Yup.
    Are we as finely tuned as the volunteers? Nope.

    We can all do it but we are suited to our environment. Your plan would make fish out of water at a simple mutual aid.
    That's why the city next to us calls the city department instead of us. That's why we call rural departments for mutual aid. We don't and never will have an urban skill set, and the city will never have a rural skill set. We do what we do well and they do what they do well. Frankly, we don't have time to learn urban skills just for mutual aid, and the city boys know that.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2011 at 06:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's why the city next to us calls the city department instead of us. That's why we call rural departments for mutual aid. We don't and never will have an urban skill set, and the city will never have a rural skill set. We do what we do well and they do what they do well. Frankly, we don't have time to learn urban skills just for mutual aid, and the city boys know that.
    Maybe in YOUR world. NOT here,we have and use all the skill sets as outlined in FF1. We have been to the city and they have come to the country. EVERYBODY works together. T.C.

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    Note to self:

    Avoid Bossier Parish if ever driving through northern LA.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    It's amazing how many times I have read this thread... or threads that were pretty much identical to it.
    No doubt. As I pointed out. Good thing other professions require individuals to be trained before being allowed to practice.

    Using LAFE's logic I think I'll become a volunteer neuro-surgeon and tell folks I shouldn't be accountable or as competent as others since someone else didn't pay for my training.

    Maybe I'll tell the airlines I want to be a pilot. I should be allowed to fly because I bought a video game and shouldn't be held to the same standard as one of their pilots who was paid to learn how to fly while being in the military.

    I could go on.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Maybe in YOUR world. NOT here,we have and use all the skill sets as outlined in FF1. We have been to the city and they have come to the country. EVERYBODY works together. T.C.
    In this part of the state there are significant long standing political issues with the parishes v. cities that extends beyond fire and covers EMS, LE, dispatch, public works and just about every other governmental operation. The two simply do not work together unless they absolutely have to, and that comes from the long standing mentality that both have.

    On the fire side that means just about the only way a city FD will call in the parish fire districts is for tanker and brush truck support.

    In addition, there is often little parish to parish cooperation, at least in this part of the state.

    We are well trained to operate in our area. We do not train to operate in the city.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No doubt. As I pointed out. Good thing other professions require individuals to be trained before being allowed to practice.

    Using LAFE's logic I think I'll become a volunteer neuro-surgeon and tell folks I shouldn't be accountable or as competent as others since someone else didn't pay for my training.

    Maybe I'll tell the airlines I want to be a pilot. I should be allowed to fly because I bought a video game and shouldn't be held to the same standard as one of their pilots who was paid to learn how to fly while being in the military.

    I could go on.
    I guess it comes down to how you define a profession.

    Most volunteers have professions. They are the ones that pay the bills.

    Most volunteers put a reasonable amount of time into training for the fire department. Unfortunately, it's often not the amount of time that a career member has due to the fact that it is in addition to their full-time employment. I guess that's the cost involved with having to work a job in addition to fire department training commitments.

    I have no issue holding volunteers to reasonable, obtainable and relevant training standards that reflect the skills needed in their communities performing the services their departments perform. In many cases, due to a more limited building stock and lesser technical services such as advanced technical rescue operations and limited haz-mat response, those training requirements are less than career staff.

    Again, our initial training actually ends up taking a little longer than FFI simply because we have added more from FFII than we have subtracted from FFI. Of course, that doesn't matter as that fact would just get in the way of the discussion.
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    Despite all of Bossier Bob's ranting and raving and attempting to justify the bastardization of the basic skills a firefighter should have.. the bottom line is....

    There are civilians that have more brains and balls than he could ever think about having who do the very thing that he supposedly "trains" others to do.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I guess it comes down to how you define a profession.

    Most volunteers have professions. They are the ones that pay the bills.

    Most volunteers put a reasonable amount of time into training for the fire department. Unfortunately, it's often not the amount of time that a career member has due to the fact that it is in addition to their full-time employment. I guess that's the cost involved with having to work a job in addition to fire department training commitments.

    I have no issue holding volunteers to reasonable, obtainable and relevant training standards that reflect the skills needed in their communities performing the services their departments perform. In many cases, due to a more limited building stock and lesser technical services such as advanced technical rescue operations and limited haz-mat response, those training requirements are less than career staff.

    Again, our initial training actually ends up taking a little longer than FFI simply because we have added more from FFII than we have subtracted from FFI. Of course, that doesn't matter as that fact would just get in the way of the discussion.
    Note to self:

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's why the city next to us calls the city department instead of us. That's why we call rural departments for mutual aid. We don't and never will have an urban skill set, and the city will never have a rural skill set. We do what we do well and they do what they do well. Frankly, we don't have time to learn urban skills just for mutual aid, and the city boys know that.
    Petersburg Va has maybe 35000 residents and has the potential for (And often runs) more working and major fires than many cities several times it's size. While it has Chesterfield County, a large Semi-urban and suburban department and the city of Colonial Heights to it's north, the counties to it's west, south and east (Prince George and Dinwiddie). are still largely rural. We're talking Every Company Has A Tanker rural.

    They quite often run into Petersburg on mutual aid, either to cover or to the scene. Prince George also runs into Hopewell, and in fact P.G. Truck 1 is the first due Truck Company into Hopewell, rolling just about automatically on any working fire in that city. And both counties' firefighters kick butt when they roll into either city. When they have a rural fire in their own jurisdiction, ditto.

    Also,Both counties have the potential for major structure fires with-in their own jurisdictions and have run The Big One. Both counties do an awesome job when faced with a major incident.

    The point to this is, LA, just because you're rural doesn't mean that you can't have the big one.

    You guys do have churches in your hydranted areas, right? How about schools? Large, old Victorian dwellings? Large commercial buildings? You need the same basic skill set to fight them in a rural community with hydrants as in an urban setting.

    I'll grant you that a major fire in a hydrantless area is a different ball game, water supply and defensive versus offensive-wise, but the object is still to get the wet stuff on the red stuff, and to protect LIFE and property.

    At some point the city you speak of will have THE BIG ONE. and they are going to need help in massive doses. and you guys just might get called for Mutual Aid

    What are you guys going to do then???

    Another quick point. Prince George had a working house fire about six miles from my house about a month back...no hydrants, rancher with the attic rolling, blowing through the roof when the first in engine got on scene. No cars in the driveway, no one home.

    They not only went in and knocked the fire down, they did it so quickly that by the time I got to the scene, parked , and got to the fireground, camera in hand, there was no fire and very little smoke left to shoot...just rig and people pics. OH...they searched the structure as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by photone View Post
    They not only went in and knocked the fire down, they did it so quickly that by the time I got to the scene, parked , and got to the fireground, camera in hand, there was no fire and very little smoke left to shoot...just rig and people pics. OH...they searched the structure as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by photone View Post
    Petersburg Va has maybe 35000 residents and has the potential for (And often runs) more working and major fires than many cities several times it's size. While it has Chesterfield County, a large Semi-urban and suburban department and the city of Colonial Heights to it's north, the counties to it's west, south and east (Prince George and Dinwiddie). are still largely rural. We're talking Every Company Has A Tanker rural.

    They quite often run into Petersburg on mutual aid, either to cover or to the scene. Prince George also runs into Hopewell, and in fact P.G. Truck 1 is the first due Truck Company into Hopewell, rolling just about automatically on any working fire in that city. And both counties' firefighters kick butt when they roll into either city. When they have a rural fire in their own jurisdiction, ditto.

    That's cool, but that doesn't happen here. The politics preclude the city calling the parishes and vis versa.That's simply the way that it is.

    Example - Another parish fire district had a reported brush fire outside of an apartment building in 30-40 mph wind conditions right on the city line less than 1/2 mile from a city fire station. They were almost 100% committed to a brush fire about 9 miles away. The city was not called. The Sheriff's office arrived on-scene and advised the dispatch that the fire was spreading into the structure. Dispatch advised the district of this and asked the district if they wanted the city called. They said no. The city then called 911 and asked if the district wanted them to respond. The district told dispatch to tell the city no. One truck from the district arrived and they had a well involved 6-unit apartment building. It was another 10 minutes before the city was requested in. And much of that is driven by the political battle between the city and the parish, which does bleed over into every emergency service including LE and EMS as well.

    WE do operate with the city now and then on the interstate as they dispatched to our MVAs on occasion and we get dispatched to thiers. Our relationship is not nearly as cold (some may say hostile) as descrobed above, but the city has some issues with us for some long-standing reasons, and there have been problems including 2 recent annexation attempts by the city to take a portion of our district, both which were voted down by the residents. In fact, the city has taken several large chunks from the fire district described above after it was developed, which has simply increased the tension between them.

    The city has had some big fires and in the 9 years we have never been called in, except for one occasion for tanker support on a brush fire and one house on the line that basically had already been burned to the ground. And in those 9 years we have never had need to call in the city. Maybe in your area there is cooperation between the cities and counties, but that simply ain't the deal in this area.


    Also,Both counties have the potential for major structure fires with-in their own jurisdictions and have run The Big One. Both counties do an awesome job when faced with a major incident.

    Our neighboring city will call Shreveport, not the bordering fire districts, including us. And Shreveport will call Bossier City, not the bordering fire districts. Only exception in both cases will be tanker and brush fire support. That's the political reality that drives the emergency services reality.

    The point to this is, LA, just because you're rural doesn't mean that you can't have the big one.

    We have mutual aid plans drawn out for our buig one, and it includes a ladder truck from the city depending on circumstances. All other mutual aid will be parish fire district resources. And we know what role we will play in the city - tankers, not firefighting manpower.

    You guys do have churches in your hydranted areas, right? How about schools? Large, old Victorian dwellings? Large commercial buildings? You need the same basic skill set to fight them in a rural community with hydrants as in an urban setting.

    Again, we have the skills for the limited commercial and public assembly structures in our area. We are not talking about multi-floor buildings, but modest size commercial buildings, and we train for them.


    I'll grant you that a major fire in a hydrantless area is a different ball game, water supply and defensive versus offensive-wise, but the object is still to get the wet stuff on the red stuff, and to protect LIFE and property.

    At some point the city you speak of will have THE BIG ONE. and they are going to need help in massive doses. and you guys just might get called for Mutual Aid

    See above. The political realities are the political realities, and the city works within them. The city PD will not call the Sheriffs Office for the same political reasons.

    What are you guys going to do then???

    The city knows what we can do and what we can't. WE will shuittle water and can provide limited structural rescue on SF homes and small commercial buildings in the vent of a tornado. Again, the political realities is what drives the mutual aid realities. It's something that I'm still getting used to as my previous area didn't have these issues.

    Another quick point. Prince George had a working house fire about six miles from my house about a month back...no hydrants, rancher with the attic rolling, blowing through the roof when the first in engine got on scene. No cars in the driveway, no one home.

    They not only went in and knocked the fire down, they did it so quickly that by the time I got to the scene, parked , and got to the fireground, camera in hand, there was no fire and very little smoke left to shoot...just rig and people pics. OH...they searched the structure as well.
    Just one more point.

    My previous volunteer department covered 26 square miles including an college and an office park with 15-20 4-5 story dorms, office buildings, hotels, motels and other properties. because we had those responsibilities our volunteers were fully trained and quite functional when it came to commercial fires, standpipes and alarms. They were trained to operate in them and with them because they were part of our district, as well as districts where we ran auto mutual aid on every structural call.

    Volunteers can be trained to deal with some very complex fire problems. Ours could if there was a need, but there simply isn't the need.
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    Posted by LABobby
    Volunteers can be trained to deal with some very complex fire problems. Ours could if there was a need, but there simply isn't the need.
    If one repeats the same bull$#!t constantly, one gets to actually believe it.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    I wish I still had count of runs made that were "never going to happen".
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    If one repeats the same bull$#!t constantly, one gets to actually believe it.
    Are you questioning that volunteers can be trained to deal with complex fire problems?

    Or questioning or need not to do so?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFuss View Post
    Do me a favor there LA. Look in every single topic on this forum that you've ever posted an opinion of yours about. Then look at the odd similarity in every single one of them... Around page 2 or 3, the topic is no longer on track. It's YOU defending you're stupid *** remarks and opinions from the rest of the world. I, like most people here arguing with you, am sick of it. You're not only the best at beating a dead horse, you dig up the horses whole family tree and beat them all too.
    Fact is I wasn't even going to post in this thread until I was brought into it by others.

    Sorry, but you decide to bring me in, then I'm going to defend myself.

    Most of what is being "discussed" now was brought up by others.

    Most of this thread has been about a training program that works well for us but others have an issue with it as the participants do not get a piece of paper afterwards. I'm not arguing against FFI anywhere else, but simply stating that it would never work as the initial level of training for my department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-03-2011 at 11:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I wish I still had count of runs made that were "never going to happen".
    I'm sorry you suffer from a lack of planning.

    A limited structural stock such as we have should be fairly predictable especially if you are actually doing your pre-plans updates. We get into the buildings twice a year and see the layouts, see the security systems and can easily make adjustments to our operational plans based on what we see.

    A larger community, maybe not so much. But in our area, things are quite predictable, and yes, we can develop a fairly localized training plan because of that.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-03-2011 at 11:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm sorry you suffer from a lack of planning.

    A limited structural stock such as we have should be fairly predictable especially if you are actually doing your pre-plans updates. We get into the buildings twice a year and see the layouts, see the security systems and can easily make adjustments to our operational plans based on what we see.

    A larger community, maybe not so much. But in our area, things are quite predictable, and yes, we can develop a fairly localized training plan because of that.
    Lack of planning? How stupid are you? That's the difference between a real department and your imaginary world. We were told it'd never happen but planned anyway and when it ended up happening, we were prepared and did our job.

    This is where you attempt to explain how much you "prepare" and how "adequate" you are and how we "just don't understand your parish and it's politics" and "everyone agree with you" along with other **** no one believes but you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Are you questioning that volunteers can be trained to deal with complex fire problems?

    Or questioning or need not to do so?
    This what you posted..
    Volunteers can be trained to deal with some very complex fire problems. Ours could if there was a need, but there simply isn't the need.
    You claim to "intelligent".. figure it out for yourself....
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 07-03-2011 at 11:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So the tell me why the majority of the states do not require FFI for volunteers and some do not even require it for career members?

    Why are there states that require no firefighter training? Why are there states that require anywhere from 24-36 hours as minimum training?

    Where is this universal groundswell demanding that FFI become the "standard"? Why is it opposed by volunteer chiefs and departments throughout the country?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm not arguing against FFI anywhere else, but simply stating that it would never work as the initial level of training for my department.
    This text posted because I have to add 10 of my own characters.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    How stupid are you?
    I'll answer for him since he won't. He's pretty stupid.

    And a disgrace to the fire service.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  23. #148
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    Lightbulb Do your CIVIC DUTY!!! Don't respod to LAFE!!!

    I just read every post on here, after ignoring this thread for several days. Talk about Buyers' Remorse...

    Two posts jumped out at me, one surrounded by the rest of the cesspool arising from the backwaters:

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    The other, from perhaps his polar opposite, was issued in response to yet another line of BS:

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    If one repeats the same bull$#!t constantly, one gets to actually believe it.
    While DCGonzo was on the mark when he used this line, my epiphany is in realizing how much more appropriate this is in response to the LAFE quote.

    They can't be FF1 because that is not a national standard that is applicable to ALL 50 states. Further, it is not the right skill set for where he is located. I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation. Never mind that it is a BASIS for the FUNDAMENTALS of firefighting. Yet, it is required for all their officers so it must be good enough on some level, because they need to have them trained to some non-existent national standard.

    He will not train FFs to risk themselves, especially off-duty or out of their response area, and certainly not risk himself, because he cannot be 100% assured that they will have the training, tools, PPE and everything else needed to be safe. It is no matter that even with all those elements in place, there is NO 100% assurance that they will magically be safe just because they are on-duty and in their response area. Think about that - a trainer will not train someone, because a lack of training might put that someone at risk...my head just exploded trying to wrap around it. I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation.

    I now understand LA. He simply MUST blather on about how great their training is, and how it's the right way to do things, and everyone else is wrong about what will work in Bossier Parish. The way I see it, this is his training ground; this is where he hones his craft. Our craft is fighting fire, and we train to accomplish this purpose. I now believe LAFE's sole craft is to justify his existence to his superiors. Hence the need to constantly spout off about how what works in 99% of the country won't work where he is. Can you imagine if word got to his superiors, that if the way "they" have been doing it could be improved by changing the education level of their manpower, all they'd need to do is change the training! But that would mean they would need a Louisiana Fire Educator, who could actually train and educate on how to be a FF! Our friend LAFE can't accomplish this task, so he needs to keep his superiors like mushrooms! (Kept in the dark and fed BS!) I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation. So, if he keeps them in the dark, he can keep his position, because his superiors won't know how inept and incompetent he is. But such a monumental task requires intensive training. Ergo, he comes in here and posts absolutely as much BS as he can, so he can be trained to respond to "fight the fires he fights". He needs the interaction with real FFs, that way, he can continue to hone his particular brand of BS to a flavor that will work when he talks to real FFs!

    My fellow Americans, on this grandest holiday, I ask you to do your civic duty! For the sake of the people of Bossier Parish, LA - PLEASE refrain from responding any further to LAFE!! Your retorts only give him opportunity to sharpen his arguments, which in turn enables him to be THE LaFireEducator, and endangers our countrymen! Your country needs you - don't answer LAFE anymore!
    Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Philadelphia Fire Department and/or IAFF Local 22.

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpita View Post
    I just read every post on here, after ignoring this thread for several days. Talk about Buyers' Remorse...

    Two posts jumped out at me, one surrounded by the rest of the cesspool arising from the backwaters:



    The other, from perhaps his polar opposite, was issued in response to yet another line of BS:



    While DCGonzo was on the mark when he used this line, my epiphany is in realizing how much more appropriate this is in response to the LAFE quote.

    They can't be FF1 because that is not a national standard that is applicable to ALL 50 states. Further, it is not the right skill set for where he is located. I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation. Never mind that it is a BASIS for the FUNDAMENTALS of firefighting. Yet, it is required for all their officers so it must be good enough on some level, because they need to have them trained to some non-existent national standard.

    As I have explained before, it's required because it's a prereq for Instructor I/II and Officer I. Without FFI/II, you cannot take or test any of the officer classes. That's why we require it for officers. It's not a complicated reason.

    And where did I say that FFI was bad? Where did I say that it is a waste of time? If we felt that way why do we teach it after they have completed the initial training or pay for the class? Why would we reward it with extra points? Why would it be a part of the incentive pay package for volunteers that work part-time? The fact is we want our firefighters to take FFI after they have completed our initial training. Firefighter I provides good general knowledge, but it does not contain all the information that we think is important for our initial training. So we add the other stuff they need and we delete the stuff they will not use in our district. Teaching what we teach is simply a more efficient use of the new members limited time. That doesn't make FFI bad. It just makes it inefficient as initial training for our operations. Nice twist on my words, by the way.


    He will not train FFs to risk themselves, especially off-duty or out of their response area, and certainly not risk himself, because he cannot be 100% assured that they will have the training, tools, PPE and everything else needed to be safe. It is no matter that even with all those elements in place, there is NO 100% assurance that they will magically be safe just because they are on-duty and in their response area. Think about that - a trainer will not train someone, because a lack of training might put that someone at risk...my head just exploded trying to wrap around it. I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation.

    I discuss the risks of operating off-duty. I discuss the fact that the department or workman's comp is not liable for medical bills. I discuss with the volunteers that the state workman's comp package will not pay for lost wages. I discuss with full-timers that it's likely civil service will not pay for lost wages and you will be bumped to workman's comp which only pays about 60%. Yes, I fully discuss the consequences so that they understand the impact that suffering an off-duty injury will have on their families. That's called giving your personnel the facts about the consequences of their actions so they can make an informed decision if they arrive at an off-duty situation. Yes, I advise them not top operate at another agency's scene as in the long run the consequences are significant, but it's their own decision if the time ever arises.

    If you are operating without PPE, tools and equipment you are far more likely to be injured than iof you have PPE, tools and equipment. That's just simple logic.

    Again, quote me where I said FFI was bad. It contains skills and equipment that we likely will never use and tools we will never own, so it is, as intial training for our operations, inefficient. It's not bad. It's simply isn't a good use of limited time for initial training. By the way, the department has been using our own training package for years. I have had nothing to do with it's design.


    I now understand LA. He simply MUST blather on about how great their training is, and how it's the right way to do things, and everyone else is wrong about what will work in Bossier Parish.

    And where did I say FFI was wrong? For many places there is simply far more information than rural firefighters will ever use, so yes, it's not efficient in terms of time. In our case, it simply does not cover the initial information our firefighters need on brush, industrial, foam and extrication operations. Yes, our training package fits our needs better than straight FFI but I never stated it was wrong for anyone else. It's wrong for us. Going to FFI would actually reduce the information our new members are getting on our operations.

    The way I see it, this is his training ground; this is where he hones his craft. Our craft is fighting fire, and we train to accomplish this purpose. I now believe LAFE's sole craft is to justify his existence to his superiors. Hence the need to constantly spout off about how what works in 99% of the country won't work where he is. Can you imagine if word got to his superiors, that if the way "they" have been doing it could be improved by changing the education level of their manpower, all they'd need to do is change the training!

    Actually my superiors were the ones that designed our current training package. My superiors are the ones that beleive that it's the right training for our department.

    But that would mean they would need a Louisiana Fire Educator, who could actually train and educate on how to be a FF! Our friend LAFE can't accomplish this task, so he needs to keep his superiors like mushrooms!

    Actually have taught 2 FFI classes there in the past 2 years with a 100% pass rate for those who tested. Who would have believed it. Helping to teach FFI at another department later this summer too.
    (Kept in the dark and fed BS!) I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation. So, if he keeps them in the dark, he can keep his position, because his superiors won't know how inept and incompetent he is. But such a monumental task requires intensive training. Ergo, he comes in here and posts absolutely as much BS as he can, so he can be trained to respond to "fight the fires he fights". He needs the interaction with real FFs, that way, he can continue to hone his particular brand of BS to a flavor that will work when he talks to real FFs!

    My fellow Americans, on this grandest holiday, I ask you to do your civic duty! For the sake of the people of Bossier Parish, LA - PLEASE refrain from responding any further to LAFE!! Your retorts only give him opportunity to sharpen his arguments, which in turn enables him to be THE LaFireEducator, and endangers our countrymen! Your country needs you - don't answer LAFE anymore!
    Please don't respond. I'm getting a headache.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-04-2011 at 06:53 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    This what you posted..

    You claim to "intelligent".. figure it out for yourself....
    Well given that you have an intimate knowledge of our fire district, I'm sure that you are commenting on the incredibly complex fire problems we face every day.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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