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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    At my old volunteer: about 30 on paper with a good responding core of 15, all ff1 with 10-11 ff2.

    My new one is my part time 8-5 and also volunteer when not at career. It's a massive district (a whole parish) with 12 stations and about 290 on the roster. I'd dare say around 200 are ff1. The ones who aren't certified are the older guys who've been there for 30 years or so and it wasn't required then. They also don't go interior due to health and/age but are damn good officers or pump operators. Education is done in house and through lsu's online system with certification at lsu normally on a vacation or the like from their full time jobs. Many of their bosses realize they are the ones protecting their homes and businesses and sometimes just give them paid time off. It works because it's expected and enforced. Your expect sub-standard boot fillers and that's what you get.

    Don't take it as a knock on your department as I don't know them
    But your "it's impossible to do" bull**** doesn't hold water. It's possible but you find it easier to make excuses.
    The point is we could very easily teach FFI as our baseline if we chose to, but we have never decided to do that. The process we teach actually takes longer ansd is just as valid as they have to demonstrtate practical skills and take a 100 question department designed test.

    They now also have to complete a computer-based FFI program complete with unit tests to complete the process.

    Instead we teach the elements of FFI that apply to us and add elements of FFII that are most applicable to our operations. It's actually more comprehensive as FFI, but they don't receive a piece of paper for it. Since there is no state requirement for FFI, it simply makese sense to train our new members based on the needs of the district v. the needs of a piece of paper.

    Again, it works very well for us.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


  2. #102
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When you can get all 50 states on board requiring FFI, and the certification earned in one state is 100% valid in all other 49 states, it will actually be a national standard, and we can talk about it. Until then, it's just a piece of paper.
    Not really. Those pieces of paper represent the activity level that shows a certain amount of effort has been expended to achieve a level of expertise and competence.

    Thing that elude you.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Not really. Those pieces of paper represent the activity level that shows a certain amount of effort has been expended to achieve a level of expertise and competence.

    Thing that elude you.
    We have the same documentation on the training hours expended for our members to complete our current rookie training.

    And given they are working on the same set of skills plus some others not included, it ends up with the same result.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #104
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Actually, it is only right for a second twice a day.
    Semantics....
    You're right, Ken.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  5. #105
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The point is we could very easily teach FFI as our baseline if we chose to, but we have never decided to do that. The process we teach actually takes longer ansd is just as valid as they have to demonstrtate practical skills and take a 100 question department designed test.

    They now also have to complete a computer-based FFI program complete with unit tests to complete the process.

    Instead we teach the elements of FFI that apply to us and add elements of FFII that are most applicable to our operations. It's actually more comprehensive as FFI, but they don't receive a piece of paper for it. Since there is no state requirement for FFI, it simply makese sense to train our new members based on the needs of the district v. the needs of a piece of paper.

    Again, it works very well for us.
    Keep dreaming...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Keep dreaming...
    No more point in discussing this as our training system works for us.

    And as I said, when FFI becomes 100% transferrable from state to state, as it was meant to be, maybe I'll start thinking of it as a national standard, but right now, that's not the case.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  7. #107
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    We have the same documentation on the training hours expended for our members to complete our current rookie training.

    And given they are working on the same set of skills plus some others not included, it ends up with the same result.
    This is great if one believes additional training isn't required after one's rookie training.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    This is great if one believes additional training isn't required after one's rookie training.
    Why would you say that?

    So it's not possible to instruct new members on some of the "basics" of vehicle extracation, industrial operations and technical rescue as part of a basic training package?

    It's also not possible to expand "basic" fire operations in our area beyond what is taught in ordinary FF1 classes?

    Yes we expand our basic training into some areas that FF1 does not cover because it's a significant part of our run package. And yes, there are elements of FF1 that we do not teach as part of our basic training because we either don't have, and never will have the tools as we have no need for them in our area, or we simply do not respond to those types of fires or those situations because of our area.

    After we teach them the basics of areas generally not taught in FF1, we send them to outside classes to expand that basic knowledge once they compelte our basic package. These areas include the above mentioned industrial firefighting, extracation, technical rescue and wildland operations. We use LSU Fire Training and TEEX to expand the "basic" knowledge after intial training on a regular basis.

    Again, they get all of the basic skills they need to operate in our area during intial training.

    If they want to expand thier knowledge, we take care of them in terms of teaching or sending them to FFI.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #109
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    I am not going to scan through all the posts to find out why, but how do we turn a thread on some bystanders making a save to LA's veiw on FFI&II? This place cracks me up.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  10. #110
    Truckie SPFDRum's Avatar
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    I have had my epiphany; I now am in complete understanding of LA's thought process. Train your crews for nothing, so they are incapable of doing anything. This way, none of the crews can be held accountable and there is no liability. Simple, effective, genius.
    My posts reflect my views and opinions, not the organization I work for or my IAFF local. Some of which they may not agree. I.A.C.O.J. member
    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
    George Mason
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    during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
    Elevator Rescue Information

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I have had my epiphany; I now am in complete understanding of LA's thought process. Train your crews for nothing, so they are incapable of doing anything. This way, none of the crews can be held accountable and there is no liability. Simple, effective, genius.
    I'll ask ..
    How is training your members to do the tasks that apply from FFI, which by the way is about 70% of the material and skills, plus train them to do tasks from FFII as part of the initial training process training them to do nothing?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #112
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why would you say that?

    So it's not possible to instruct new members on some of the "basics" of vehicle extracation, industrial operations and technical rescue as part of a basic training package?
    Not the point. Funny stuff.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  13. #113
    Let's talk fire trucks! BoxAlarm187's Avatar
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    LA,

    Why do you make your members who seek promotion take FF1? If it's good enough for them, why is it not good enough for the rest of the members? Aren't both your officers and firefighters responding to the same calls and facing the same hazards?
    Career Fire Captain
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    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm187 View Post
    LA,

    Why do you make your members who seek promotion take FF1? If it's good enough for them, why is it not good enough for the rest of the members? Aren't both your officers and firefighters responding to the same calls and facing the same hazards?
    I have answered this several times.

    The primary reason is that LSU Fire Training requires FFI for their advanced technical rescue classes.

    Secondly FFI (and FFII) is required for Instructor I, and subsequently, Officer I, both of which have tremendous value for our officers. As an potential department instructor, an officer should have a broader knowledge base than a firefighter.

    We encourage our firefighters to take Firefighter I as it does have general knowledge value, but it's our feeling that the general knowledge is simply not needed at the firefighter level.

    Again, I'll ask a simple question as an example. What value does knowing how to use a Rabbit Tool, or K-tool have when we do not own one and most likely never will have the need to own one?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Not the point. Funny stuff.
    So then what is the point?

    We have a specific training program built around our needs, not some mythical "national standard", that likely will never be a national standard as the states can't even agree what a FFI course entails.

    Again, when all 50 states accept a FFI certificate as valid without retests or even having to pay a fee, FFI will have value as a "national standard". Until then, it's just a piece of paper.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  16. #116
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    We encourage our firefighters to take Firefighter I as it does have general knowledge value, but it's our feeling that the general knowledge is simply not needed at the firefighter level.
    Firefighter 1 is the BASICS
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  17. #117
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    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #118
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    Your "system", beliefs and tenets are totally flawed and run contrary to the rest of the fire service believes.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  19. #119
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    Isn't that a quote from Captain Edward Smith?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  20. #120
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    There's an old vaudeville line that says the best comedy writes itself.

    You prove it daily.

    Fortunately other professions don't subscribe to your mindset.
    Last edited by scfire86; 07-02-2011 at 10:22 AM.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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