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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Lack of planning? How stupid are you? That's the difference between a real department and your imaginary world. We were told it'd never happen but planned anyway and when it ended up happening, we were prepared and did our job.

    This is where you attempt to explain how much you "prepare" and how "adequate" you are and how we "just don't understand your parish and it's politics" and "everyone agree with you" along with other **** no one believes but you.
    And what does not using FFI as basic training in our district have to do with not being prepared?

    What part of teaching beyond FFI do you not understand?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpita View Post
    My fellow Americans, on this grandest holiday, I ask you to do your civic duty! For the sake of the people of Bossier Parish, LA - PLEASE refrain from responding any further to LAFE!! Your retorts only give him opportunity to sharpen his arguments, which in turn enables him to be THE LaFireEducator, and endangers our countrymen! Your country needs you - don't answer LAFE anymore!
    Noone will listen....

    Nice job though, you're a modern day Patrick Henry!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well given that you have an intimate knowledge of our fire district, I'm sure that you are commenting on the incredibly complex fire problems we face every day.
    Congrats on learning to use the quote function.. it only took you a few years to do it... and your answer to my quote... wrong again.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Noone will listen....

    Nice job though, you're a modern day Patrick Henry!
    Noone.... which Noone would that be?

    Peter Noone from Herman's Hermits?
    JT Noone the soccer player?

    Anybody named Noone?

    Anybody up for a "Nooner"?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post

    Anybody up for a "Nooner"?
    The citizens that are protected by Boobys Boys. Their own FD is boning them and they don't even know it. The fact is, it's really quite that simple.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    The citizens that are protected by Boobys Boys. Their own FD is boning them and they don't even know it. The fact is, it's really quite that simple.
    Note to self:

    Avoid Bossier Parish.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Note to self:

    Avoid Bossier Parish.
    That's ok .. We are doing pretty good right now and we really don't need the few extra tourist dollars. Besides we're not much on liberals in this part of the state.

    Given this is like the third time you've said it .. I think we get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    The citizens that are protected by Boobys Boys. Their own FD is boning them and they don't even know it. The fact is, it's really quite that simple.
    Interesting as I'm at the bottom of the food chain yet they are "my boys".

    Given that's the case I should be able to implement the changes I've been waiting to make.

    What's really quite simple is the level of fire protection our citizens get for what they pay. It's really quite good.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  9. #159
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    I have to disagree, I can't paint his department as incompetent. I'm sure they're some good guys who love serving their neighbors and are brothers just like us. My heart goes out to them for having to deal with Bobby though.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I have to disagree, I can't paint his department as incompetent. I'm sure they're some good guys who love serving their neighbors and are brothers just like us. My heart goes out to them for having to deal with Bobby though.
    They have my sympathy....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's ok .. We are doing pretty good right now and we really don't need the few extra tourist dollars. Besides we're not much on liberals in this part of the state.

    Given this is like the third time you've said it .. I think we get it.
    None of which changes the lack of skill you continually justify.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    What's really quite simple is the level of fire protection our citizens get for what they pay. It's really quite good.
    Fortunately for the rest of us it isn't much. And so few people live in the parish it's almost significantly insignificant.
    Last edited by scfire86; 07-04-2011 at 01:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I have to disagree, I can't paint his department as incompetent. I'm sure they're some good guys who love serving their neighbors and are brothers just like us. My heart goes out to them for having to deal with Bobby though.
    Good intentions doesn't translate into ability.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    None of which changes the lack of skill you continually justify.

    No. what I justify is training based on the needs of the district, not the needs of a piece of paper.

    What I have often discussed was an alternate certification to Firefighter I - Firefighter I Rural where the areas such as alarms, hydrants and sprinklers could be replaced by additional material in the rural water supply and brush modules, and building construction topics less geared to large urban structures and more geared to rural buildings such as small town storefronts, dairy barns, silos and agricultural buildings. This would not be a complicated modification to the cirriculum and it would serve the majority of volunteer fire departments in the country who are primarily in rural areas.

    The deleted areas could be taught as a separate module if somebody wanted to have both Firefighter I and Firefighter I Rural certifications.

    That would take care of much of the issues I have with a blanket FFI certification that really does very little to address the on-the-ground needs of the rural, volunteer fire service.

    We have simply modified the cirriculum to fit our needs. Yes, we have sacrificed the certificate for the initial training program, but in our minds the tradeoff is worth it, especially given the fact that we teach FFI, pay for FFI testing and reward FFI with a point incentive once they complete the initial training if they wish to get the piece of paper. As I have stated more than once, they actually have more training hours than if they took Firefighter I, and our pass rate is over 95% for those that later take the FFI test.

    Where exactly do I justify a lack of skill?



    Fortunately for the rest of us it isn't much. And so few people live in the parish it's almost significantly insignificant.
    Our district is about 17,000, which is not a large number.

    There are districts where a 40 or 50 hour course will teach the firefighters most of what they need to know. I have served in those districts, and yes, that would serve as a fairly comprehensive training program.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Good intentions doesn't translate into ability.
    However fire loss data and other performance data do......

    ..... Number of LSU instructors, number of personnel hired as career firefighters, advanced certifications rates, rating ....

    Honestly, I'm getting awfully tired of your insults. I'll put my department against anyone.

    That being said, it's my personal opinion that we are far too aggressive and yes, we should allow structures to burn far more often than we do, which is almost never. Firefighters should only risk when there is tangible, measurable gain, and IMO, we cross that line far too often.

    To many, that level of aggressiveness is a good thing. To me, it's a horrible thing that costs the fire service the lives of our personnel every year.I have no issues with an exterior fire department. I wish that we were one of those far more often.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Honestly, I'm getting awfully tired of your insults. I'll put my department against anyone.
    Really? You'd put them against a large urban department that deals with high fire load, daily haz-mat, legitimate terrorist targets, and numerous multiple dwelling structure fires? That has more people in one city than you do in the entire parish?

    We're getting tired of you claiming ability in a profession that left you behind long ago.

    A captain that was getting ready to retire when I was on probation told me, "sonny, your dreams will never hurt you."
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    Honestly, I'm getting awfully tired of your insults. I'll put my department against anyone.
    I laughed so hard I almost peed....
    What are we to eliminate from the contest: Ladders-check, VES-check, primary search-check, interior attack-check. What's left, a game of keg-ball?

    That being said, it's my personal opinion that we are far too aggressive and yes, we should allow structures to burn far more often than we do, which is almost never. Firefighters should only risk when there is tangible, measurable gain, and IMO, we cross that line far too often.

    To many, that level of aggressiveness is a good thing. To me, it's a horrible thing that costs the fire service the lives of our personnel every year.I have no issues with an exterior fire department. I wish that we were one of those far more often.
    There is the problem, you believe nothing, and from your posts on here, I mean nothing, is a tangible, measurable gain. Me on the other-hand, a photo album of a deceased family member or a wedding is a tangible gain, the favorite stuffed animal of a child is a tangible gain, a family heirloom is a tangible gain, a roof over a families head is a tangible gain. But hey, in your world, I am a cowboy, hell bent for glory and death. In mine, I care.
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 07-04-2011 at 02:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I laughed so hard I almost peed....
    What are we to eliminate from the contest: Ladders-check, VES-check, primary search-check, interior attack-check. What's left, a game of keg-ball?



    There is the problem, you believe nothing, and from your posts on here, I mean nothing, is a tangible, measurable gain. Me on the other-hand, a photo album of a deceased family member or a wedding is a tangible gain, the favorite stuffed animal of a child is a tangible gain, a family heirloom is a tangible gain, a roof over a families head is a tangible gain. But hey, in your world, I am a cowboy, hell bent for glory and death. In mine, I care.
    Bing-freaking-o, Mark!
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Really? You'd put them against a large urban department that deals with high fire load, daily haz-mat, legitimate terrorist targets, and numerous multiple dwelling structure fires? That has more people in one city than you do in the entire parish?

    We're getting tired of you claiming ability in a profession that left you behind long ago.

    A captain that was getting ready to retire when I was on probation told me, "sonny, your dreams will never hurt you."
    I would put them against anyone or size, and yes, there are some smaller career departments that I would have no issue putting them against.

    Again, say what you want about me. I really don't think the profession left me behind especially given the fact that I am doing more fireground instruction, both in-house and in other departments, that I have done in a long time, but hey, think what you want as we will never meet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I would put them against anyone or size, and yes, there are some smaller career departments that I would have no issue putting them against.
    More bluster. Especially knowing you'll never have to put up.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Again, say what you want about me. I really don't think the profession left me behind especially given the fact that I am doing more fireground instruction, both in-house and in other departments, that I have done in a long time, but hey, think what you want as we will never meet.
    Think all you want, that doesn't change the reality of you being left behind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPFDRum View Post
    I laughed so hard I almost peed....
    What are we to eliminate from the contest: Ladders-check, VES-check, primary search-check, interior attack-check. What's left, a game of keg-ball?

    The bottom line there is skills within each of those areas that are specific to larger departments and more built up areas.

    There is equipment that yes, is specific to built-up areas than many VFDs do not even carry.

    Last I knew VES isn't even a part of FFI, but that is a skill that is simply not used in this area by volunteer, combo or even urban departments. I know because when I discussed the concept with a training officer of a neighboring urban department (who is our Asst. Chief) and the LSU Fire training staff, it was quite foreign to both of them.

    Yes, there are topics within each area that could be deleted so that areas of specific interest to rural departments could be inserted. Having been on several rural, and two VERY rural departments, I have a bit of an idea of what I am talking about.

    By the way, LSU already has such a course designed and ready to fly. It was proposed and passed by the State Fireman's Association a few years ago, but was never passed as law. It would have made a very practical, realistic state minimum standard.

    By the way, how many rural VFDs have you served with? Given that you seem to know what a rural department needs for skills, it would seem like you have some experience. Or are you just guessing?

    On the topic on interior attack, I would also love to see a Firefighter I - Exterior certification for those that do not wish to operate interior, but still wants to be an active firefighter. Obviously it would be a shorter course, but could be similar to Firefighter I or Firefighter I Rural, without the SCBA and burn components.


    There is the problem, you believe nothing, and from your posts on here, I mean nothing, is a tangible, measurable gain. Me on the other-hand, a photo album of a deceased family member or a wedding is a tangible gain, the favorite stuffed animal of a child is a tangible gain, a family heirloom is a tangible gain, a roof over a families head is a tangible gain. But hey, in your world, I am a cowboy, hell bent for glory and death. In mine, I care.
    So a family photo album or family keepsake is worth the life of a firefighter? The smoking remains of a 30-year old mobile home is worth 2 kids not having a Daddy anymore? Same with a few pieces of industrial equipment at a plant or the charred remains of some tractors at a barn fire?

    I guess I think of us as more valuable than that.

    If there is measurable gain, I'm more than willing to take a risk as long as we have the resources to make that save a reality. If I pull up on a home which is 50% involved I'll give it a shot as long as I can flow the formula plus 50% and have manpower for all the safety concerns that incident poses. If I show up with 8 guys and 2000 gallons of water, an interior attack isn't going to happen because a save is not a realistic possibility and the risks are simply too high.

    No. Photos and keepsakes are not worth or life, or even an injury.

    What ever we go needs to be measured against the value of our lives, and yes, depending on the capabilities, training, experiences and resources of your department, that could mean a lot of exterior attacks. But it's what the families of our personnel deserve.

    There is no shame in allowing a building to burn if it means We all Go Home.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-04-2011 at 03:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    More bluster. Especially knowing you'll never have to put up.

    And how exactly would we "put up"?


    Think all you want, that doesn't change the reality of you being left behind.
    Ya, that's me.
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  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So a family photo album or family keepsake is worth the life of a firefighter? The smoking remains of a 30-year old mobile home is worth 2 kids not having a Daddy anymore? Same with a few pieces of industrial equipment at a plant or the charred remains of some tractors at a barn fire?

    I guess I think of us as more valuable than that.
    Find where I said any of the, especially "worth the life of a a firefighter". But you won't. Then add stuff to my statement like "a few pieces of industrial equipment at a plant or the charred remains of some tractors at a barn fire"? Seriously, how convoluted is your thinking? But I will say this, it is worth me, as a firefighter, training myself, gaining the experience, and having the skill set to make the decision to make a difference. Not just write it off because it isn't mine.

    If there is measurable gain, I'm more than willing to take a risk as long as we have the resources to make that save a reality. If I pull up on a home which is 50% involved I'll give it a shot as long as I can flow the formula and have manpower for all the safety concerns that incident poses. if I show up with 8 guys and 2000 gallons of water, an interior attack isn't going to happen because a save is not a realistic possibility and the risks are simply too high.
    Who said anything about a save? But unbeknown to you, many other departments have confined the fire, providing enough time for a primary and some salvage. Knowing the building may be a lost cause. But this would take relevant fire experience and training to make such a decision. You on the other hand, have a built in mediocracy. Armed with a convenient excuse for your inaction.
    No. Photos and keepsakes are not worth or life, or even an injury.
    An injury? Seriously, you said an injury? what the eff kind of coward are you? I hope you don't partake in any extra-curricular activities and live in a bubble. Because if the mere fact of an injury is going to prevent you from doing something, you had better stay in your cocoon.
    Another clueless, baseless point by the famous LAfirecoward. As holier than thou you think you are, I'm amazed you chum with us mortals. You really are a blithering idiot....
    Last edited by SPFDRum; 07-04-2011 at 03:33 PM.
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    Posted by LAFE
    There is no shame in allowing a building to burn if it means We all Go Home.
    The shame ocurs when someone does not have a home to go home to because you let it burn...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    The shame ocurs when someone does not have a home to go home to because you let it burn...
    How are we responsible for the house burning?

    We were not responsible for the fire. We did not leave the stove unattended, or fail to clean the chimney, or connect 8 appliances into a single electrical outlet. We didn't fail to install smoke detectors so they could extinguish the fire when it's small, or we didn't fail to take the time to clear combustibles from around the home if they live in a wildfire prone area.

    The homeowners are the ones with the primary responsibility for managing the fire risk. If they fail to do that, no matter now many trucks and firefighters we bring, especially in a rural area, with delayed response times, there is often little we can do to extinguish the fire before most, if not all, is lost.

    The homeowner in may cases is the one responsible for the fire. Sure, there are the random lightning strikes or the brush fire started by the neighbor igniting another home, but the way you boys make it sound, we have a inherit a personal responsible for correcting their mistakes once they call us, and if we don't we have failed to perform our duty.

    It's our duty do the best with the resources the community makes available to us to mitigate the homeowner's error, and still go home, and no, that does not mean we are responsible for accepting injury and death to our personnel because of the situation, because in the end, it really isn't our problem.

    It's not our duty to take a personal responsibility for the incident. Once we interject that into the mix, especially in the rural environment, bad decisions start being made.

    Again, in the rural environment the risks often outweigh the benefits, and unless the manpower and financial realities change, there is generally little we can do to change the outcome without unacceptable risk to my personnel.

    For those who are yelling, he's blaming the homeowner again ... I am. It is their responsibility to do what needs to be done to avoid a fire. That being said, it is our responsibility to provide them with the information so that can make informed decisions. If we fail to provide them with that information, we have failed. If we provide them with the information, and they fail to utilize it, then they have failed. And in many cases, there are consequences that we simply cannot change, no matter how hard we may want to.
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    Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So a family photo album or family keepsake is worth the life of a firefighter? The smoking remains of a 30-year old mobile home is worth 2 kids not having a Daddy anymore? Same with a few pieces of industrial equipment at a plant or the charred remains of some tractors at a barn fire?

    I guess I think of us as more valuable than that.
    Find where I said any of the, especially "worth the life of a a firefighter". But you won't. Then add stuff to my statement like "a few pieces of industrial equipment at a plant or the charred remains of some tractors at a barn fire"? Seriously, how convoluted is your thinking? But I will say this, it is worth me, as a firefighter, training myself, gaining the experience, and having the skill set to make the decision to make a difference. Not just write it off because it isn't mine.

    ]Isn't a factory owner a taxpayer? if you are going to say that we need to take risks to save pictures and keepsakes, isn't it fair to say that we should take risks to save a few pieces of industrial equipment, or maybe some of the plant's records. Isn't it fair to say that we should take those same risks to save a few pieces of farm equipment in the barn? The simple question is at what point is the benefit worth the risk?

    You define pictures and keepsakes as a measurable benefit. You don't mention the "lives of the firefighters" but isn't that what we are talking about since we are discussing interior v. exterior operations? What else would we be risking?


    If there is measurable gain, I'm more than willing to take a risk as long as we have the resources to make that save a reality. If I pull up on a home which is 50% involved I'll give it a shot as long as I can flow the formula and have manpower for all the safety concerns that incident poses. if I show up with 8 guys and 2000 gallons of water, an interior attack isn't going to happen because a save is not a realistic possibility and the risks are simply too high.

    Who said anything about a save? But unbeknown to you, many other departments have confined the fire, providing enough time for a primary and some salvage. Knowing the building may be a lost cause. But this would take relevant fire experience and training to make such a decision. You on the other hand, have a built in mediocracy. Armed with a convenient excuse for your inaction.

    I have done that many times, often in manpower and water supply situations better than my current, but even that involves risk to firefighters. Again, my world is semi-rural environment on the career side and a very rural environment on the volunteer side, as compared to an urban career world. Response time is and always will be our biggest enemy, and very often fire has gotten control of the attic by the time we arrive, creating an almost unacceptable risk v. benefit and work environment.

    I fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of both of my departments, and fully understand and accept the differing limitations of each. I accept the fact that there will be times where we can do little, and there will be times that we can do nothing. There will also be times when we can change the outcome. My training has taught me to recognize all three, and accept the fact that we do what we can do with what we have.

    If we can hold the fire to save property, I will. If i have to compromise any aspect of firefighter safety to do so, or have to pull folks from essential water supply functions to do so, the risk v. benefit is simply unacceptable, and there will be little or nothing we can safely do to change the outcome. AS I said, given the response time nature of both departments, the attic is the key area, and it most cases, it's burning before we arrive.

    No. Photos and keepsakes are not worth or life, or even an injury.

    So again, what type of risk are we talking about if not talking about risk to firefighters?

    An injury? Seriously, you said an injury? what the eff kind of coward are you? I hope you don't partake in any extra-curricular activities and live in a bubble. Because if the mere fact of an injury is going to prevent you from doing something, you had better stay in your cocoon.

    Maybe you accept injuries. I don't. Under civil service, injuries have the potential to cost the department quite a bit of money, which has impact on our operations, as we are a small department with a very limited sick time/injury budget.

    For our volunteers, injury can be a significant issue as state workman's comp does not reimburse volunteers lost work time, and we have no mechanism to do so either.

    So yes, injuries do concern me, and they are not acceptable.

    Again, you are willing to accept what I am not.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-04-2011 at 04:11 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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