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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Your "system", beliefs and tenets are totally flawed and run contrary to the rest of the fire service believes.
    So the tell me why the majority of the states do not require FFI for volunteers and some do not even require it for career members?

    Why are there states that require no firefighter training? Why are there states that require anywhere from 24-36 hours as minimum training?

    Where is this universal groundswell demanding that FFI become the "standard"? Why is it opposed by volunteer chiefs and departments throughout the country?

    If the feeling that FFI should be the "standard" why is it is not that universal in all 50 states? How can it be a "standard" if it's not required in all states?

    Why can't a take a FFI from Montana and walk into a department in FL and have it not accepted as a training standard? Why do I have to retest in some states? Why do I have to retake the whole course in others?

    Everyone here who talks about it being the standard ... Where is the evidence that it has been accepted as such nationwide?

    After all ,,,, Isn't a standard something that everyone requires?
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2011 at 10:43 AM.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    There's an old vaudeville line that says the best comedy writes itself.

    You prove it daily.

    Fortunately other professions don't subscribe to your mindset.
    The problem is to many, firefighting is not a profession.

    Yes, I said it. The vast majority of the firefighters in the country do it not as a profession, but as something they enjoy doing in addition to their profession. They don't do it as a job. They do it as an advocation, and in some cases, yes, a hobby.

    I have said it more than once and I'll say it again. You want equal standards, then let's level the playing field. Career personnel attend the academy without being paid. They do not receive training while in the station at work, but instead they must attend all required training while off the clock on their days off, just like volunteers have to do.

    You want equal standards, fine. But let's not have one side being paid to attend the academy to meet your "minimum training standards"and being paid to train while on the job to meet advanced and continuing education requirements, while the other side is somehow expected to meet the same standards working a fulltime job, and in some cases, a second job, while attending both initial and continuing education requirements in their off-time.

    Be a man and refund the portion of your salary that you were paid to train if you want the volunteers to be at your level.

    I'm sure not going to expect my volunteers to have the same level of training as I do, or any other career firefighters does, given that we are almost always paid to attend training as a part of our normal job duties. That's simply not a reasonable expectation.

    I fully believe in reasonable and relevant training standards for volunteers based on the level of response and area served, much of which should be determined by the local FD. Are there core areas such as building construction, fire behavior, SCBA, basic self-rescue ans RIT that every firefighter should have? Absolutely. But there are other areas such as commercial building construction, alarms, sprinklers, complex forcible entry and even hydrants and relay pumping that folks here are stating as a basic that a rural firefighter may never experience in his career. Those are the types of things that can be eliminated in a "rural FFI" either to shorten to course or allow additional time for expanded water shuttle and brush fire operations training. It's all about using the time on the stuff they respond to and the stuff they respond with.

    But the training needs to be reasonable to the time available. And requiring the same training as a career member that faces a far deeper chest of hazards isn't.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2011 at 12:35 PM.
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  3. #123
    Forum Member IronValor's Avatar
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    Removing any part of training is the same as removing a weapon from your arsenal or a tool from your toolbox.. Its better to have that training and not need it than to need that training and not have it. While some of that training I.E. Relaying pumping, Aircraft Firefighting etc. may not seem important right now, A little further down range it might come in handy such as Mutual Aid situations and God Forbid maybe a Firefighter wanting to go some place else or be a more complete firefighter.

    " Training to fight the Fires you fight " Is the stupidest one thing any individual has ever said. Can anybody name a Job they caught that was exactly like the other one?

    The fire service is dynamic it is always changing and no two incidents are alike. While I do agree that some of the training that we put in can seem boring and non applicable I remind Myself that its just a small part of the big picture.


    The attitude of < We have done this for x amount of years and its worked > has no place within the fire service. It may have worked 8 times out of 10 but there is always that chance of it not working and Im not certain that I would like to gamble with My Mens lives like that...
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

  4. #124
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So the tell me why the majority of the states do not require FFI for volunteers and some do not even require it for career members?
    Because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why are there states that require no firefighter training? Why are there states that require anywhere from 24-36 hours as minimum training?
    Because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why is it opposed by volunteer chiefs and departments throughout the country?
    Because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    If the feeling that FFI should be the "standard" why is it is not that universal in all 50 states? How can it be a "standard" if it's not required in all states?
    It's not, because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Why can't a take a FFI from Montana and walk into a department in FL and have it not accepted as a training standard? Why do I have to retest in some states? Why do I have to retake the whole course in others?
    Because most people don't settle for the minimum, unlike you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Everyone here who talks about it being the standard ... Where is the evidence that it has been accepted as such nationwide?
    It is not the standard because of people like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    After all ,,,, Isn't a standard something that everyone requires?
    Hey it's always worked for us so why change it, or even try to change it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Yes, I said it. The vast majority of the firefighters in the country do it not as a profession, but as something they enjoy doing in addition to their profession. They don't do it as a job. They do it as an advocation, and in some cases, yes, a hobby.
    You single handly do more HARM to the volunteer community than some of the biggest rejects and dirtbags that inhabit it. I would almost rather have a thief as a volunteer than you. Least I KNOW what the thief is and will do. At least the thief won't swear to do all he can to promote good conduct and crap than harm his own cause like you manage to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You want equal standards, fine. But let's not have one side being paid to attend the academy to meet your "minimum training standards"and being paid to train while on the job to meet advanced and continuing education requirements, while the other side is somehow expected to meet the same standards working a fulltime job, and in some cases, a second job, while attending both initial and continuing education requirements in their off-time.
    Yet somehow the volunteers in Virginia can somehow do all this, without the career side not being paid. Virginia Beach has the volunteers meet the SAME standards as the paid, Boxalarm187 up in Henrico, same story. Amazing, it CAN be done when you are not willing to accept excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm sure not going to expect my volunteers to have the same level of training as I do,
    Sadly the moment they walk in the door for the first time, they have exceeded your level of training.
    Last edited by JohnVBFD; 07-02-2011 at 02:24 PM.
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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    The problem is to many, firefighting is not a profession.

    Yes, I said it. The vast majority of the firefighters in the country do it not as a profession, but as something they enjoy doing in addition to their profession. They don't do it as a job. They do it as an advocation, and in some cases, yes, a hobby..
    You are really grasping at straws and it shows. Maybe you see this when you look in the mirror but it's extremely moronic to assume it of all of us. Any side jobs my fellow career firefighters have is literally a job on the side, to pay for their kids private school, buy toys, or supplement our below average pay. On the other end, there are volunteers who can't afford to NOT be doing what their career entails but still have a desire to answer their calling. The statement you proclaimed is very stupid and ignorant but I know you'll never admit to it so moving on...


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I have said it more than once and I'll say it again. You want equal standards, then let's level the playing field. Career personnel attend the academy without being paid. They do not receive training while in the station at work, but instead they must attend all required training while off the clock on their days off, just like volunteers have to do..
    Ok, and then make it mandatory for volunteers to answer on designated days. Make them outline their districts. Make them respond regardless of holiday, weather, or occasion.



    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    You want equal standards, fine. But let's not have one side being paid to attend the academy to meet your "minimum training standards"and being paid to train while on the job to meet advanced and continuing education requirements, while the other side is somehow expected to meet the same standards working a fulltime job, and in some cases, a second job, while attending both initial and continuing education requirements in their off-time.
    .
    You are trained on the job EVERYWHERE. Your point here makes no sense. Many career departments entry isn't as easy as walking up and saying "I'd like to join". I was never refunded for the days of work I missed going interviews. I was never paid while I trained and ran every day in preparation for the academy. Guess what, many recruits still work their departments at the academy. Many can't work a Second job due to the 5 days a week schedule. Are you so ignorant that you think it's just easy money? How do you propose to survive a 14 week mandatory academy and feed a family?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Be a man and refund the portion of your salary that you were paid to train if you want the volunteers to be at your level..
    We pay them back everytime the tones go off and a battalion of highly trained men will undoubtedly respond.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm sure not going to expect my volunteers to have the same level of training as I do, or any other career firefighters does, given that we are almost always paid to attend training as a part of our normal job duties. That's simply not a reasonable expectation.
    .
    Same level? No. I agree. I am not as highly technical as a fdny Ff, but we all started at the same place. It's the same in sports. They pay you to perform and if you don't, you're cut. Fire burns the same everywhere, it's not fair to throw a guy to the wolves because you don't want to take the initiative to make sure he's mentally and physically competent. You can pluck a first year ff from my volunteer and swap him for a guy at my career and no one would know the difference. That's the way it should be. Sure, the career received training in driver ops, hazmat, bls and such but should a volunteer choose to pursue training in other areas, he's free to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I fully believe in reasonable and relevant training standards for volunteers based on the level of response and area served, much of which should be determined by the local FD. Are there core areas such as building construction, fire behavior, SCBA, basic self-rescue ans RIT that every firefighter should have? Absolutely. But there are other areas such as commercial building construction, alarms, sprinklers, complex forcible entry and even hydrants and relay pumping that folks here are stating as a basic that a rural firefighter may never experience in his career. Those are the types of things that can be eliminated in a "rural FFI" either to shorten to course or allow additional time for expanded water shuttle and brush fire operations training. It's all about using the time on the stuff they respond to and the stuff they respond with.

    But the training needs to be reasonable to the time available. And requiring the same training as a career member that faces a far deeper chest of hazards isn't.
    But that's YOUR rural district and yours alone. In my rural district, we still shut down sprinklers. We still do all types of forcible entry. We still do commercial buildings. And there are still hydrants here.

    You see no contradiction in your statements? I'll admit to the difficulties in training volunteers to a set standard but it IS possible. It's being done all over. You make a standard so everyone is on the same page. Our career guys grow and learn the intricacies of urban firefighting as do our volunteers deal with rural firefighting, but at the end of the day they are still a nationally accepted rank of firefighter who happens to specialize in their setting. Can our volunteers deploy a highrise pack? Sure.
    As well as our city/career guys? Nope.
    Can our city guys deal with a water shuttle? Yup.
    Are we as finely tuned as the volunteers? Nope.
    We can all do it but we are suited to our environment. Your plan would make fish out of water at a simple mutual aid.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronValor View Post
    Removing any part of training is the same as removing a weapon from your arsenal or a tool from your toolbox.. Its better to have that training and not need it than to need that training and not have it. While some of that training I.E. Relaying pumping, Aircraft Firefighting etc. may not seem important right now, A little further down range it might come in handy such as Mutual Aid situations and God Forbid maybe a Firefighter wanting to go some place else or be a more complete firefighter.

    True, to a limited extent. I can look at the building stock in both my combo and volunteer districts and anticipate the issues i will face. if I am doing pre-plans every year and just not pencil whipping them, I know the level of forcible entry traing buildings in my district require. I know the types of hose stretches they require and what kind of water supply issues I will face, and I can build my training around that. I fully understand that there are wild cards, but if you are paying attention to what is being built, most of those wild cards can be anticipated, planned for and trained for. As I stated, if they want to think about down the road, we will teach or pay for FFI and FFII. Some of our volunteers are happy where they are and some are thinking about employment as a FF. We will train them either way.

    " Training to fight the Fires you fight " Is the stupidest one thing any individual has ever said. Can anybody name a Job they caught that was exactly like the other one?

    Again, knowing your area and anticipating your hazards. I know that we will never fight a 3 story motel fire unless they build one in our district, or a large apartment building fire, or a hundred other hazards that the city next to us may catch. We do know that we will do more brush fires than anyone else and stand a good chance of catching a fire at the refinery in our district. And because of that, they are part of our initial skills package.

    The fire service is dynamic it is always changing and no two incidents are alike. While I do agree that some of the training that we put in can seem boring and non applicable I remind Myself that its just a small part of the big picture.

    Again, we fight 5x the number of brush fires than structure fires, so we train for that. We do 3x the vehicle extrication. We need those skills. We don't need sprinklers, alarms and standpipes. We know what we run on.



    The attitude of < We have done this for x amount of years and its worked > has no place within the fire service. It may have worked 8 times out of 10 but there is always that chance of it not working and Im not certain that I would like to gamble with My Mens lives like that...
    Again, we know what we run.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2011 at 05:11 PM.
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  7. #127
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    It's amazing how many times I have read this thread... or threads that were pretty much identical to it.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    You are really grasping at straws and it shows. Maybe you see this when you look in the mirror but it's extremely moronic to assume it of all of us. Any side jobs my fellow career firefighters have is literally a job on the side, to pay for their kids private school, buy toys, or supplement our below average pay. On the other end, there are volunteers who can't afford to NOT be doing what their career entails but still have a desire to answer their calling. The statement you proclaimed is very stupid and ignorant but I know you'll never admit to it so moving on...

    The fact is the majority of the firefighters in the US are volunteers, who do it for a variety of reasons, and some are more motivated than others. There will always be volunteers who go above and beyond, volunteers who meet the minimum and sadly, volunteers who do not have a tremendous amount of drive and fall somewhat below the minimum. They all have a place and they all will end up at different levels of training because of their motivations, family needs and work flexibility. I am fully in favor of requiring training minimums that guarantee safety, bit I am not willing to place requirements that exceed what a baseline firefighter needs to operate in their departments if that means we will lose an excessive number of members to get there.



    Ok, and then make it mandatory for volunteers to answer on designated days. Make them outline their districts. Make them respond regardless of holiday, weather, or occasion.

    Some departments do have duty nights. Some departments do require a minimum call percentage. In some cases, those work well. In others, not so much.



    You are trained on the job EVERYWHERE. Your point here makes no sense. Many career departments entry isn't as easy as walking up and saying "I'd like to join". I was never refunded for the days of work I missed going interviews. I was never paid while I trained and ran every day in preparation for the academy. Guess what, many recruits still work their departments at the academy. Many can't work a Second job due to the 5 days a week schedule. Are you so ignorant that you think it's just easy money? How do you propose to survive a 14 week mandatory academy and feed a family?

    I have no issue with on the job training. However, you can't take one group and pay them for training, and take another group which has a job outside of the fire service, and expect them to have the same level of training meeting the requirements on their free time. It's simply not realistic for most people. Sure, there are some, but your are limiting the number of people available to you.


    We pay them back everytime the tones go off and a battalion of highly trained men will undoubtedly respond.



    Same level? No. I agree. I am not as highly technical as a fdny Ff, but we all started at the same place. It's the same in sports. They pay you to perform and if you don't, you're cut. Fire burns the same everywhere, it's not fair to throw a guy to the wolves because you don't want to take the initiative to make sure he's mentally and physically competent. You can pluck a first year ff from my volunteer and swap him for a guy at my career and no one would know the difference. That's the way it should be. Sure, the career received training in driver ops, hazmat, bls and such but should a volunteer choose to pursue training in other areas, he's free to do so.

    That's great. We have several members that are career members elsewhere. We have several pure volunteers that are quite skilled. And we have some volunteers with the minimum skills, but we find a place for them and understand that in an environment where there are differing levels of time for training, there will be differing skill levels. it's very much a part of a volunteer department.


    But that's YOUR rural district and yours alone. In my rural district, we still shut down sprinklers. We still do all types of forcible entry. We still do commercial buildings. And there are still hydrants here.

    Ding. Ding. Ding. Which is exactly why training standards need to be local. We have no needs for certain skills that you require. And there are skills that we require that you have no need for. Yet you really want to certify everybody, everywhere with a basic cookie-cutter skill package that may not have what either one of us needs. Sorry, skills are local and training requirements should be local as well.

    You see no contradiction in your statements? I'll admit to the difficulties in training volunteers to a set standard but it IS possible.

    The trick is our volunteers are being trained to a set standard - Our standard. It's the standard that we as a department have set based on our operational needs. The complete probation everyone must complete the basic skills checklist. Most complete it. A few linger and have to be pushed. And some never complete it and leave the department.


    It's being done all over. You make a standard so everyone is on the same page.

    Exactly why we have the skills checklist.


    Our career guys grow and learn the intricacies of urban firefighting as do our volunteers deal with rural firefighting, but at the end of the day they are still a nationally accepted rank of firefighter who happens to specialize in their setting.

    Problem is there is no nationally recognized rank of Firefighter. If they went to FL, they would have to retake the class. If they went to state Z, they may have to pay $100. If they went to state X, they may have to retake the test. If they went to Shreveport or Dallas, they would have to retake the academy. So where is the national standard? Where is the national rank of Firefighter?

    Can our volunteers deploy a highrise pack? Sure.
    As well as our city/career guys? Nope.
    Can our city guys deal with a water shuttle? Yup.
    Are we as finely tuned as the volunteers? Nope.

    We can all do it but we are suited to our environment. Your plan would make fish out of water at a simple mutual aid.
    That's why the city next to us calls the city department instead of us. That's why we call rural departments for mutual aid. We don't and never will have an urban skill set, and the city will never have a rural skill set. We do what we do well and they do what they do well. Frankly, we don't have time to learn urban skills just for mutual aid, and the city boys know that.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-02-2011 at 05:45 PM.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's why the city next to us calls the city department instead of us. That's why we call rural departments for mutual aid. We don't and never will have an urban skill set, and the city will never have a rural skill set. We do what we do well and they do what they do well. Frankly, we don't have time to learn urban skills just for mutual aid, and the city boys know that.
    Maybe in YOUR world. NOT here,we have and use all the skill sets as outlined in FF1. We have been to the city and they have come to the country. EVERYBODY works together. T.C.

  10. #130
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    Note to self:

    Avoid Bossier Parish if ever driving through northern LA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    It's amazing how many times I have read this thread... or threads that were pretty much identical to it.
    No doubt. As I pointed out. Good thing other professions require individuals to be trained before being allowed to practice.

    Using LAFE's logic I think I'll become a volunteer neuro-surgeon and tell folks I shouldn't be accountable or as competent as others since someone else didn't pay for my training.

    Maybe I'll tell the airlines I want to be a pilot. I should be allowed to fly because I bought a video game and shouldn't be held to the same standard as one of their pilots who was paid to learn how to fly while being in the military.

    I could go on.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue101 View Post
    Maybe in YOUR world. NOT here,we have and use all the skill sets as outlined in FF1. We have been to the city and they have come to the country. EVERYBODY works together. T.C.
    In this part of the state there are significant long standing political issues with the parishes v. cities that extends beyond fire and covers EMS, LE, dispatch, public works and just about every other governmental operation. The two simply do not work together unless they absolutely have to, and that comes from the long standing mentality that both have.

    On the fire side that means just about the only way a city FD will call in the parish fire districts is for tanker and brush truck support.

    In addition, there is often little parish to parish cooperation, at least in this part of the state.

    We are well trained to operate in our area. We do not train to operate in the city.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    No doubt. As I pointed out. Good thing other professions require individuals to be trained before being allowed to practice.

    Using LAFE's logic I think I'll become a volunteer neuro-surgeon and tell folks I shouldn't be accountable or as competent as others since someone else didn't pay for my training.

    Maybe I'll tell the airlines I want to be a pilot. I should be allowed to fly because I bought a video game and shouldn't be held to the same standard as one of their pilots who was paid to learn how to fly while being in the military.

    I could go on.
    I guess it comes down to how you define a profession.

    Most volunteers have professions. They are the ones that pay the bills.

    Most volunteers put a reasonable amount of time into training for the fire department. Unfortunately, it's often not the amount of time that a career member has due to the fact that it is in addition to their full-time employment. I guess that's the cost involved with having to work a job in addition to fire department training commitments.

    I have no issue holding volunteers to reasonable, obtainable and relevant training standards that reflect the skills needed in their communities performing the services their departments perform. In many cases, due to a more limited building stock and lesser technical services such as advanced technical rescue operations and limited haz-mat response, those training requirements are less than career staff.

    Again, our initial training actually ends up taking a little longer than FFI simply because we have added more from FFII than we have subtracted from FFI. Of course, that doesn't matter as that fact would just get in the way of the discussion.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Despite all of Bossier Bob's ranting and raving and attempting to justify the bastardization of the basic skills a firefighter should have.. the bottom line is....

    There are civilians that have more brains and balls than he could ever think about having who do the very thing that he supposedly "trains" others to do.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I guess it comes down to how you define a profession.

    Most volunteers have professions. They are the ones that pay the bills.

    Most volunteers put a reasonable amount of time into training for the fire department. Unfortunately, it's often not the amount of time that a career member has due to the fact that it is in addition to their full-time employment. I guess that's the cost involved with having to work a job in addition to fire department training commitments.

    I have no issue holding volunteers to reasonable, obtainable and relevant training standards that reflect the skills needed in their communities performing the services their departments perform. In many cases, due to a more limited building stock and lesser technical services such as advanced technical rescue operations and limited haz-mat response, those training requirements are less than career staff.

    Again, our initial training actually ends up taking a little longer than FFI simply because we have added more from FFII than we have subtracted from FFI. Of course, that doesn't matter as that fact would just get in the way of the discussion.
    Note to self:

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    That's why the city next to us calls the city department instead of us. That's why we call rural departments for mutual aid. We don't and never will have an urban skill set, and the city will never have a rural skill set. We do what we do well and they do what they do well. Frankly, we don't have time to learn urban skills just for mutual aid, and the city boys know that.
    Petersburg Va has maybe 35000 residents and has the potential for (And often runs) more working and major fires than many cities several times it's size. While it has Chesterfield County, a large Semi-urban and suburban department and the city of Colonial Heights to it's north, the counties to it's west, south and east (Prince George and Dinwiddie). are still largely rural. We're talking Every Company Has A Tanker rural.

    They quite often run into Petersburg on mutual aid, either to cover or to the scene. Prince George also runs into Hopewell, and in fact P.G. Truck 1 is the first due Truck Company into Hopewell, rolling just about automatically on any working fire in that city. And both counties' firefighters kick butt when they roll into either city. When they have a rural fire in their own jurisdiction, ditto.

    Also,Both counties have the potential for major structure fires with-in their own jurisdictions and have run The Big One. Both counties do an awesome job when faced with a major incident.

    The point to this is, LA, just because you're rural doesn't mean that you can't have the big one.

    You guys do have churches in your hydranted areas, right? How about schools? Large, old Victorian dwellings? Large commercial buildings? You need the same basic skill set to fight them in a rural community with hydrants as in an urban setting.

    I'll grant you that a major fire in a hydrantless area is a different ball game, water supply and defensive versus offensive-wise, but the object is still to get the wet stuff on the red stuff, and to protect LIFE and property.

    At some point the city you speak of will have THE BIG ONE. and they are going to need help in massive doses. and you guys just might get called for Mutual Aid

    What are you guys going to do then???

    Another quick point. Prince George had a working house fire about six miles from my house about a month back...no hydrants, rancher with the attic rolling, blowing through the roof when the first in engine got on scene. No cars in the driveway, no one home.

    They not only went in and knocked the fire down, they did it so quickly that by the time I got to the scene, parked , and got to the fireground, camera in hand, there was no fire and very little smoke left to shoot...just rig and people pics. OH...they searched the structure as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by photone View Post
    They not only went in and knocked the fire down, they did it so quickly that by the time I got to the scene, parked , and got to the fireground, camera in hand, there was no fire and very little smoke left to shoot...just rig and people pics. OH...they searched the structure as well.
    You shouldn't speak fireman to LAFE. It's a foreign language to him.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

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    Quote Originally Posted by photone View Post
    Petersburg Va has maybe 35000 residents and has the potential for (And often runs) more working and major fires than many cities several times it's size. While it has Chesterfield County, a large Semi-urban and suburban department and the city of Colonial Heights to it's north, the counties to it's west, south and east (Prince George and Dinwiddie). are still largely rural. We're talking Every Company Has A Tanker rural.

    They quite often run into Petersburg on mutual aid, either to cover or to the scene. Prince George also runs into Hopewell, and in fact P.G. Truck 1 is the first due Truck Company into Hopewell, rolling just about automatically on any working fire in that city. And both counties' firefighters kick butt when they roll into either city. When they have a rural fire in their own jurisdiction, ditto.

    That's cool, but that doesn't happen here. The politics preclude the city calling the parishes and vis versa.That's simply the way that it is.

    Example - Another parish fire district had a reported brush fire outside of an apartment building in 30-40 mph wind conditions right on the city line less than 1/2 mile from a city fire station. They were almost 100% committed to a brush fire about 9 miles away. The city was not called. The Sheriff's office arrived on-scene and advised the dispatch that the fire was spreading into the structure. Dispatch advised the district of this and asked the district if they wanted the city called. They said no. The city then called 911 and asked if the district wanted them to respond. The district told dispatch to tell the city no. One truck from the district arrived and they had a well involved 6-unit apartment building. It was another 10 minutes before the city was requested in. And much of that is driven by the political battle between the city and the parish, which does bleed over into every emergency service including LE and EMS as well.

    WE do operate with the city now and then on the interstate as they dispatched to our MVAs on occasion and we get dispatched to thiers. Our relationship is not nearly as cold (some may say hostile) as descrobed above, but the city has some issues with us for some long-standing reasons, and there have been problems including 2 recent annexation attempts by the city to take a portion of our district, both which were voted down by the residents. In fact, the city has taken several large chunks from the fire district described above after it was developed, which has simply increased the tension between them.

    The city has had some big fires and in the 9 years we have never been called in, except for one occasion for tanker support on a brush fire and one house on the line that basically had already been burned to the ground. And in those 9 years we have never had need to call in the city. Maybe in your area there is cooperation between the cities and counties, but that simply ain't the deal in this area.


    Also,Both counties have the potential for major structure fires with-in their own jurisdictions and have run The Big One. Both counties do an awesome job when faced with a major incident.

    Our neighboring city will call Shreveport, not the bordering fire districts, including us. And Shreveport will call Bossier City, not the bordering fire districts. Only exception in both cases will be tanker and brush fire support. That's the political reality that drives the emergency services reality.

    The point to this is, LA, just because you're rural doesn't mean that you can't have the big one.

    We have mutual aid plans drawn out for our buig one, and it includes a ladder truck from the city depending on circumstances. All other mutual aid will be parish fire district resources. And we know what role we will play in the city - tankers, not firefighting manpower.

    You guys do have churches in your hydranted areas, right? How about schools? Large, old Victorian dwellings? Large commercial buildings? You need the same basic skill set to fight them in a rural community with hydrants as in an urban setting.

    Again, we have the skills for the limited commercial and public assembly structures in our area. We are not talking about multi-floor buildings, but modest size commercial buildings, and we train for them.


    I'll grant you that a major fire in a hydrantless area is a different ball game, water supply and defensive versus offensive-wise, but the object is still to get the wet stuff on the red stuff, and to protect LIFE and property.

    At some point the city you speak of will have THE BIG ONE. and they are going to need help in massive doses. and you guys just might get called for Mutual Aid

    See above. The political realities are the political realities, and the city works within them. The city PD will not call the Sheriffs Office for the same political reasons.

    What are you guys going to do then???

    The city knows what we can do and what we can't. WE will shuittle water and can provide limited structural rescue on SF homes and small commercial buildings in the vent of a tornado. Again, the political realities is what drives the mutual aid realities. It's something that I'm still getting used to as my previous area didn't have these issues.

    Another quick point. Prince George had a working house fire about six miles from my house about a month back...no hydrants, rancher with the attic rolling, blowing through the roof when the first in engine got on scene. No cars in the driveway, no one home.

    They not only went in and knocked the fire down, they did it so quickly that by the time I got to the scene, parked , and got to the fireground, camera in hand, there was no fire and very little smoke left to shoot...just rig and people pics. OH...they searched the structure as well.
    Just one more point.

    My previous volunteer department covered 26 square miles including an college and an office park with 15-20 4-5 story dorms, office buildings, hotels, motels and other properties. because we had those responsibilities our volunteers were fully trained and quite functional when it came to commercial fires, standpipes and alarms. They were trained to operate in them and with them because they were part of our district, as well as districts where we ran auto mutual aid on every structural call.

    Volunteers can be trained to deal with some very complex fire problems. Ours could if there was a need, but there simply isn't the need.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Posted by LABobby
    Volunteers can be trained to deal with some very complex fire problems. Ours could if there was a need, but there simply isn't the need.
    If one repeats the same bull$#!t constantly, one gets to actually believe it.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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    I wish I still had count of runs made that were "never going to happen".
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

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