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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    If one repeats the same bull$#!t constantly, one gets to actually believe it.
    Are you questioning that volunteers can be trained to deal with complex fire problems?

    Or questioning or need not to do so?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.


  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireFuss View Post
    Do me a favor there LA. Look in every single topic on this forum that you've ever posted an opinion of yours about. Then look at the odd similarity in every single one of them... Around page 2 or 3, the topic is no longer on track. It's YOU defending you're stupid *** remarks and opinions from the rest of the world. I, like most people here arguing with you, am sick of it. You're not only the best at beating a dead horse, you dig up the horses whole family tree and beat them all too.
    Fact is I wasn't even going to post in this thread until I was brought into it by others.

    Sorry, but you decide to bring me in, then I'm going to defend myself.

    Most of what is being "discussed" now was brought up by others.

    Most of this thread has been about a training program that works well for us but others have an issue with it as the participants do not get a piece of paper afterwards. I'm not arguing against FFI anywhere else, but simply stating that it would never work as the initial level of training for my department.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-03-2011 at 10:23 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I wish I still had count of runs made that were "never going to happen".
    I'm sorry you suffer from a lack of planning.

    A limited structural stock such as we have should be fairly predictable especially if you are actually doing your pre-plans updates. We get into the buildings twice a year and see the layouts, see the security systems and can easily make adjustments to our operational plans based on what we see.

    A larger community, maybe not so much. But in our area, things are quite predictable, and yes, we can develop a fairly localized training plan because of that.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-03-2011 at 10:30 PM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  4. #144
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm sorry you suffer from a lack of planning.

    A limited structural stock such as we have should be fairly predictable especially if you are actually doing your pre-plans updates. We get into the buildings twice a year and see the layouts, see the security systems and can easily make adjustments to our operational plans based on what we see.

    A larger community, maybe not so much. But in our area, things are quite predictable, and yes, we can develop a fairly localized training plan because of that.
    Lack of planning? How stupid are you? That's the difference between a real department and your imaginary world. We were told it'd never happen but planned anyway and when it ended up happening, we were prepared and did our job.

    This is where you attempt to explain how much you "prepare" and how "adequate" you are and how we "just don't understand your parish and it's politics" and "everyone agree with you" along with other **** no one believes but you.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  5. #145
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Are you questioning that volunteers can be trained to deal with complex fire problems?

    Or questioning or need not to do so?
    This what you posted..
    Volunteers can be trained to deal with some very complex fire problems. Ours could if there was a need, but there simply isn't the need.
    You claim to "intelligent".. figure it out for yourself....
    Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 07-03-2011 at 10:49 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    So the tell me why the majority of the states do not require FFI for volunteers and some do not even require it for career members?

    Why are there states that require no firefighter training? Why are there states that require anywhere from 24-36 hours as minimum training?

    Where is this universal groundswell demanding that FFI become the "standard"? Why is it opposed by volunteer chiefs and departments throughout the country?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    I'm not arguing against FFI anywhere else, but simply stating that it would never work as the initial level of training for my department.
    This text posted because I have to add 10 of my own characters.
    Co 11
    Virginia Beach FD

    Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they cannot get it wrong. Which one are you?

    'The fire went out and nobody got hurt' is a poor excuse for a fireground critique.

  7. #147
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    How stupid are you?
    I'll answer for him since he won't. He's pretty stupid.

    And a disgrace to the fire service.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  8. #148
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    Lightbulb Do your CIVIC DUTY!!! Don't respod to LAFE!!!

    I just read every post on here, after ignoring this thread for several days. Talk about Buyers' Remorse...

    Two posts jumped out at me, one surrounded by the rest of the cesspool arising from the backwaters:

    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Our system works very well for us.

    It's really that simple.
    The other, from perhaps his polar opposite, was issued in response to yet another line of BS:

    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    If one repeats the same bull$#!t constantly, one gets to actually believe it.
    While DCGonzo was on the mark when he used this line, my epiphany is in realizing how much more appropriate this is in response to the LAFE quote.

    They can't be FF1 because that is not a national standard that is applicable to ALL 50 states. Further, it is not the right skill set for where he is located. I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation. Never mind that it is a BASIS for the FUNDAMENTALS of firefighting. Yet, it is required for all their officers so it must be good enough on some level, because they need to have them trained to some non-existent national standard.

    He will not train FFs to risk themselves, especially off-duty or out of their response area, and certainly not risk himself, because he cannot be 100% assured that they will have the training, tools, PPE and everything else needed to be safe. It is no matter that even with all those elements in place, there is NO 100% assurance that they will magically be safe just because they are on-duty and in their response area. Think about that - a trainer will not train someone, because a lack of training might put that someone at risk...my head just exploded trying to wrap around it. I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation.

    I now understand LA. He simply MUST blather on about how great their training is, and how it's the right way to do things, and everyone else is wrong about what will work in Bossier Parish. The way I see it, this is his training ground; this is where he hones his craft. Our craft is fighting fire, and we train to accomplish this purpose. I now believe LAFE's sole craft is to justify his existence to his superiors. Hence the need to constantly spout off about how what works in 99% of the country won't work where he is. Can you imagine if word got to his superiors, that if the way "they" have been doing it could be improved by changing the education level of their manpower, all they'd need to do is change the training! But that would mean they would need a Louisiana Fire Educator, who could actually train and educate on how to be a FF! Our friend LAFE can't accomplish this task, so he needs to keep his superiors like mushrooms! (Kept in the dark and fed BS!) I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation. So, if he keeps them in the dark, he can keep his position, because his superiors won't know how inept and incompetent he is. But such a monumental task requires intensive training. Ergo, he comes in here and posts absolutely as much BS as he can, so he can be trained to respond to "fight the fires he fights". He needs the interaction with real FFs, that way, he can continue to hone his particular brand of BS to a flavor that will work when he talks to real FFs!

    My fellow Americans, on this grandest holiday, I ask you to do your civic duty! For the sake of the people of Bossier Parish, LA - PLEASE refrain from responding any further to LAFE!! Your retorts only give him opportunity to sharpen his arguments, which in turn enables him to be THE LaFireEducator, and endangers our countrymen! Your country needs you - don't answer LAFE anymore!
    Opinions expressed are mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect those of the Philadelphia Fire Department and/or IAFF Local 22.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpita View Post
    I just read every post on here, after ignoring this thread for several days. Talk about Buyers' Remorse...

    Two posts jumped out at me, one surrounded by the rest of the cesspool arising from the backwaters:



    The other, from perhaps his polar opposite, was issued in response to yet another line of BS:



    While DCGonzo was on the mark when he used this line, my epiphany is in realizing how much more appropriate this is in response to the LAFE quote.

    They can't be FF1 because that is not a national standard that is applicable to ALL 50 states. Further, it is not the right skill set for where he is located. I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation. Never mind that it is a BASIS for the FUNDAMENTALS of firefighting. Yet, it is required for all their officers so it must be good enough on some level, because they need to have them trained to some non-existent national standard.

    As I have explained before, it's required because it's a prereq for Instructor I/II and Officer I. Without FFI/II, you cannot take or test any of the officer classes. That's why we require it for officers. It's not a complicated reason.

    And where did I say that FFI was bad? Where did I say that it is a waste of time? If we felt that way why do we teach it after they have completed the initial training or pay for the class? Why would we reward it with extra points? Why would it be a part of the incentive pay package for volunteers that work part-time? The fact is we want our firefighters to take FFI after they have completed our initial training. Firefighter I provides good general knowledge, but it does not contain all the information that we think is important for our initial training. So we add the other stuff they need and we delete the stuff they will not use in our district. Teaching what we teach is simply a more efficient use of the new members limited time. That doesn't make FFI bad. It just makes it inefficient as initial training for our operations. Nice twist on my words, by the way.


    He will not train FFs to risk themselves, especially off-duty or out of their response area, and certainly not risk himself, because he cannot be 100% assured that they will have the training, tools, PPE and everything else needed to be safe. It is no matter that even with all those elements in place, there is NO 100% assurance that they will magically be safe just because they are on-duty and in their response area. Think about that - a trainer will not train someone, because a lack of training might put that someone at risk...my head just exploded trying to wrap around it. I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation.

    I discuss the risks of operating off-duty. I discuss the fact that the department or workman's comp is not liable for medical bills. I discuss with the volunteers that the state workman's comp package will not pay for lost wages. I discuss with full-timers that it's likely civil service will not pay for lost wages and you will be bumped to workman's comp which only pays about 60%. Yes, I fully discuss the consequences so that they understand the impact that suffering an off-duty injury will have on their families. That's called giving your personnel the facts about the consequences of their actions so they can make an informed decision if they arrive at an off-duty situation. Yes, I advise them not top operate at another agency's scene as in the long run the consequences are significant, but it's their own decision if the time ever arises.

    If you are operating without PPE, tools and equipment you are far more likely to be injured than iof you have PPE, tools and equipment. That's just simple logic.

    Again, quote me where I said FFI was bad. It contains skills and equipment that we likely will never use and tools we will never own, so it is, as intial training for our operations, inefficient. It's not bad. It's simply isn't a good use of limited time for initial training. By the way, the department has been using our own training package for years. I have had nothing to do with it's design.


    I now understand LA. He simply MUST blather on about how great their training is, and how it's the right way to do things, and everyone else is wrong about what will work in Bossier Parish.

    And where did I say FFI was wrong? For many places there is simply far more information than rural firefighters will ever use, so yes, it's not efficient in terms of time. In our case, it simply does not cover the initial information our firefighters need on brush, industrial, foam and extrication operations. Yes, our training package fits our needs better than straight FFI but I never stated it was wrong for anyone else. It's wrong for us. Going to FFI would actually reduce the information our new members are getting on our operations.

    The way I see it, this is his training ground; this is where he hones his craft. Our craft is fighting fire, and we train to accomplish this purpose. I now believe LAFE's sole craft is to justify his existence to his superiors. Hence the need to constantly spout off about how what works in 99% of the country won't work where he is. Can you imagine if word got to his superiors, that if the way "they" have been doing it could be improved by changing the education level of their manpower, all they'd need to do is change the training!

    Actually my superiors were the ones that designed our current training package. My superiors are the ones that beleive that it's the right training for our department.

    But that would mean they would need a Louisiana Fire Educator, who could actually train and educate on how to be a FF! Our friend LAFE can't accomplish this task, so he needs to keep his superiors like mushrooms!

    Actually have taught 2 FFI classes there in the past 2 years with a 100% pass rate for those who tested. Who would have believed it. Helping to teach FFI at another department later this summer too.
    (Kept in the dark and fed BS!) I have NEVER heard ANY instructor say that ANY type of training is too much or bad, regardless of its application to any particular department, local, or situation. So, if he keeps them in the dark, he can keep his position, because his superiors won't know how inept and incompetent he is. But such a monumental task requires intensive training. Ergo, he comes in here and posts absolutely as much BS as he can, so he can be trained to respond to "fight the fires he fights". He needs the interaction with real FFs, that way, he can continue to hone his particular brand of BS to a flavor that will work when he talks to real FFs!

    My fellow Americans, on this grandest holiday, I ask you to do your civic duty! For the sake of the people of Bossier Parish, LA - PLEASE refrain from responding any further to LAFE!! Your retorts only give him opportunity to sharpen his arguments, which in turn enables him to be THE LaFireEducator, and endangers our countrymen! Your country needs you - don't answer LAFE anymore!
    Please don't respond. I'm getting a headache.
    Last edited by LaFireEducator; 07-04-2011 at 05:53 AM.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    This what you posted..

    You claim to "intelligent".. figure it out for yourself....
    Well given that you have an intimate knowledge of our fire district, I'm sure that you are commenting on the incredibly complex fire problems we face every day.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    Lack of planning? How stupid are you? That's the difference between a real department and your imaginary world. We were told it'd never happen but planned anyway and when it ended up happening, we were prepared and did our job.

    This is where you attempt to explain how much you "prepare" and how "adequate" you are and how we "just don't understand your parish and it's politics" and "everyone agree with you" along with other **** no one believes but you.
    And what does not using FFI as basic training in our district have to do with not being prepared?

    What part of teaching beyond FFI do you not understand?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  12. #152
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpita View Post
    My fellow Americans, on this grandest holiday, I ask you to do your civic duty! For the sake of the people of Bossier Parish, LA - PLEASE refrain from responding any further to LAFE!! Your retorts only give him opportunity to sharpen his arguments, which in turn enables him to be THE LaFireEducator, and endangers our countrymen! Your country needs you - don't answer LAFE anymore!
    Noone will listen....

    Nice job though, you're a modern day Patrick Henry!
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  13. #153
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    Well given that you have an intimate knowledge of our fire district, I'm sure that you are commenting on the incredibly complex fire problems we face every day.
    Congrats on learning to use the quote function.. it only took you a few years to do it... and your answer to my quote... wrong again.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  14. #154
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Noone will listen....

    Nice job though, you're a modern day Patrick Henry!
    Noone.... which Noone would that be?

    Peter Noone from Herman's Hermits?
    JT Noone the soccer player?

    Anybody named Noone?

    Anybody up for a "Nooner"?
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post

    Anybody up for a "Nooner"?
    The citizens that are protected by Boobys Boys. Their own FD is boning them and they don't even know it. The fact is, it's really quite that simple.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  16. #156
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    The citizens that are protected by Boobys Boys. Their own FD is boning them and they don't even know it. The fact is, it's really quite that simple.
    Note to self:

    Avoid Bossier Parish.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by scfire86 View Post
    Note to self:

    Avoid Bossier Parish.
    That's ok .. We are doing pretty good right now and we really don't need the few extra tourist dollars. Besides we're not much on liberals in this part of the state.

    Given this is like the third time you've said it .. I think we get it.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    The citizens that are protected by Boobys Boys. Their own FD is boning them and they don't even know it. The fact is, it's really quite that simple.
    Interesting as I'm at the bottom of the food chain yet they are "my boys".

    Given that's the case I should be able to implement the changes I've been waiting to make.

    What's really quite simple is the level of fire protection our citizens get for what they pay. It's really quite good.
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

  19. #159
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    I have to disagree, I can't paint his department as incompetent. I'm sure they're some good guys who love serving their neighbors and are brothers just like us. My heart goes out to them for having to deal with Bobby though.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by tajm611 View Post
    I have to disagree, I can't paint his department as incompetent. I'm sure they're some good guys who love serving their neighbors and are brothers just like us. My heart goes out to them for having to deal with Bobby though.
    They have my sympathy....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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