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  1. #21
    Moderator ProgressiveRescue's Avatar
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    Is anyone in this forum using the 1 retrieval line technique as shown the the ROCO article? I've been through a lot of training from various people and organizations and this was never brought up. I like the simplicity behind it and the fact that it would clean up the rigging area however I cant bring myself to commit 2-4 rescuers on one line. Is it just me?
    Mike
    "Training Prepares You...For Moments That Define You


  2. #22
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    I have seen it taught and have used it in training. Don't like it personally. As long as nothing goes wrong it works well enough though.

    Here are my issues with it; If rescuer #1 goes down then you either have to pull up rescuer #2 (,#3 and #4?) or have them d/c from the line and untie their knots to facilitate the retreival of #1. Also, if not spaced on the line with far enough distanceboth have to travel together; say #1 is at the patient and #2 has to go back to the hole for additional equipment.

    Here is the deal as I see it; If you want to use it and have trained to do so great. It will not become an OSHA issue unless you get someone killed using it. As long as you are successful OSHA will never know.

    As someone said here once; we are in the buisness of risk management, who better to decide our own level of risk comparied to our training.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  3. #23
    Forum Member jdcalamia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    I have seen it taught and have used it in training. Don't like it personally. As long as nothing goes wrong it works well enough though.
    I think this says it all. If this is the case for any option/procedure I think the application needs to be rethought. Something already has gone wrong, hense the need for a rescue/retrieval. No need to invite anyother possibilities. There are plaenty of other methods to use with less risk.

    Personally I like to go with the rigging method that has as few variables as possible given the specific situation. The fact that you have to ensure the rescuers are removed in the reverse of their entry simply lends to confusion in an already tense/chaotic environment. Not to mention that the configuration of certain spaces may not allow for this and force someone to be temporarily d/c from the retrieval line. Great discussion, I'm looking forward to see OSHAs viewpoint.
    John D. Calamia, BS, NREMTP, FP-C
    Firefighter/Flight Paramedic
    Broomall, PA

  4. #24
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Received an email this week reference ROCO's inquiry into rescuers on a butterflied belay/retrieval line. States that; OSHA might be OK with butterflying in... "OSHA does not view rescuers as entrants (having to fullfill the same requirements as industry entrants). More to follow with an official OSHA response."

    Will be waiting on the official OSHA interpretation, but that is the preliminary response.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  5. #25
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    Did anyone ever see the OSHA interpretation letter yet?
    Still would be interested in hearing what they have to say.
    Dave

  6. #26
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    Still waiting on the letter, there has been no decision made that I am aware.There are issues no matter how you make entries with belays. First, if you use individual lines and are limited by the number of ropes, try using both ends of the rope for each individual (only if the distance will allow). You do not need seperate anchor points, just tie the first line off to the anchor point (if on a stable footing) and use the same device for the second entrant. Just an idea to save on space and equipment.

    If you use the butterfly method, limit it to two RESCUERS. I would never use the same belay for the patient and rescuers. If the space goes south, get your people out first, then the patient. The distance is measured by allowing the first entrant to reach the patient and gaining some slack, then you tie the butterfly at the entry point. If the first goes down for whatever reason, the second can attach to the main, take off his belay and switch it with the first and place the first entrant to the main and you stay on line. Or you can take 1910.146 paragraph (k)(3) regarding the EXTREME need to forego any belay line due to circumstances hindering the rescue.

    Finally, if it is an IDLH atmosphere I would not use the butterfly technique at all. There is a heightened danger there regarding safety other than just the potential for a fall, equipment malfunction, etc. I would force the issue regarding individual belays. These are just thoughts and insist that there are many ways to skin a cat, use what your are comfortable with and works for you.

  7. #27
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    When using a tripod we do not attach the belay to the tripod.

  8. #28
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    Well is looks like the Letter of Interpretation we were discussing is out. Got this from the Roco website.
    http://www.rocorescue.com/_blog/Roco...trieval_Lines/
    IMHO is appears that common sense prevailed.

    Dave

  9. #29
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIRECAPT62 View Post
    When using a tripod we do not attach the belay to the tripod.
    Cap, how would you negotiate the edge transition using the retrieval line without high help in a Type 3 or 4 (top entry) confined space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue Dave View Post
    Well is looks like the Letter of Interpretation we were discussing is out. Got this from the Roco website.
    http://www.rocorescue.com/_blog/Roco...trieval_Lines/
    IMHO is appears that common sense prevailed.

    Dave
    Cool, I like that they differentiated authorized entrants from rescuers. I am not a fan of the butterflying into one retrieval line, but it leaves the option "legal" for those who want to run that way.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

  10. #30
    Forum Member MichaelXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiremanLyman View Post
    Cap, how would you negotiate the edge transition using the retrieval line without high help in a Type 3 or 4 (top entry) confined space?



    Cool, I like that they differentiated authorized entrants from rescuers. I am not a fan of the butterflying into one retrieval line, but it leaves the option "legal" for those who want to run that way.
    Drew, are you a proponent of separate lines? If so, this requires a lot of gear and also the entanglement issue. Just wondering your approach?

    What I mean to say is, how would you setup for this?
    Last edited by MichaelXYZ; 03-08-2013 at 04:06 PM.

  11. #31
    Forum Member FiremanLyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    Drew, are you a proponent of separate lines? If so, this requires a lot of gear and also the entanglement issue. Just wondering your approach?
    Yes though I would work off either system, I am a fan of seperate lines. And yes this uses more gear, adds one more line so not really an entaglement issue. No more than if you had a supplied air line and a hardwire comms line going in the hole also.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelXYZ View Post
    What I mean to say is, how would you setup for this?
    Rig a MA for haul line, using an anchor plate with four carabiners on it (because friction is your friend on belay) for the 4 belay/retreival lines (2 for rescue entrants, 2 for back up team). Extend tripod to max height. Have a retreival MA set aside ready to piggieback on a retreival line if needed. If on air we can duct tape the air and comms lines to the retreival line every 10-15 feet. Pretty standard.
    ~Drew
    Firefighter/EMT/Technical Rescue
    USAR TF Rescue Specialist

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