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  1. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber tajm611's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    I'd like you to tell me the what you think the authors point is. Because the only point I see is a guy sick of seeing news articles about a firemans death on the front page as opposed to thrown back on the 10th.
    He's writing a piece that will get people talking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    I think there is a lot to learn from LODD's including those 'fat out of shape people' that are dropping. First off we are getting a better understanding of what continued stress can do to cardio vascular system (as most people do not endure the stresses of being toned out at 0245 for a MVA) and how the benefits of diet and exercise can actually turn even the effects of those stresses around. I do not think that every cardiac LODD is due to somebody being out of shape...but I do not have the numbers on that to back it up, I'm guessing you do?
    We've always known what stress does to your cardiac health. While cardiac arrest can happen to anyone, it is widely known that we aren't exactly the creme of the crop when it comes to fitness levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    The basics that we are taught during academy and then drilled on and continually refreshed on through out the years are exactly what I'm talking about when I speak of rigid training. I know that we are required to keep X amount of training hours through out the year, there are some that choose to simply fly by while a great majority go above and beyond.
    And many firefighters do not go through an academy, and their ****ty ideal of basics are taught by even ****tier guys who are just as dumbfounded. Is it a general consensus? No, but it exist to the point that it is a very big problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    Lastly I have no clue what you are talking about with LODDs and mowing a lawn...
    Responding to a medical call, gets off work, goes home, doesn't wake up from his afternoon nap.

    Coming (or going, can't remember) to a training class. 2 teenagers decide to race their trucks on the interstate. Go off the road and die.

    Both LODD's.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    I agree with you about keeping out of the spotlight, unfortunately that is largely not up to the men and women who work in the fire service. I think by the nature of what we do (emergency work), there is an inherent interest by the media and the public. Can we make our selves look better by our actions? Of course. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find firefighters out there simply looking to get in the lime light.
    It's not the ones who TRY to get into the limelight but the ones that enter the lime light due to their stupid actions. I whole heartily disagree with the article but john brings up some very taboo points that I align with.
    ‎"I was always taught..." Four words impacting fire service education in the most negative of ways. -Bill Carey


  2. #22
    MembersZone Subscriber tree68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnVBFD View Post
    That over half of our LODD's are because we have fat out of shape or people with known health issues?
    Or not - there is a faction that is starting to recognize the impact of cyanide poisoning in such deaths - even involving people who never entered the fire building but who did manage to get a dose of smoke are being found to have suffered from exposure from cyanide.

    The victims get back to the station, go into cardiac arrest, and never stand a chance because we assume they're just out of shape and don't consider that they've actually been poisoned.

    What I'm hearing is that many people who supposedly die of "smoke inhalation" are actually dying of cyanide poisoning - which is treatable. The Europeans are apparently having great success with treating every "smoke inhalation" for cyanide poisoning.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

  3. #23
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Or not - there is a faction that is starting to recognize the impact of cyanide poisoning in such deaths - even involving people who never entered the fire building but who did manage to get a dose of smoke are being found to have suffered from exposure from cyanide.

    The victims get back to the station, go into cardiac arrest, and never stand a chance because we assume they're just out of shape and don't consider that they've actually been poisoned.

    What I'm hearing is that many people who supposedly die of "smoke inhalation" are actually dying of cyanide poisoning - which is treatable. The Europeans are apparently having great success with treating every "smoke inhalation" for cyanide poisoning.
    The science is pretty clear, a Harvard study found that firefighters were at higher risk of dying from a cardiac event... even when not fighting fires.

    So, something is going on, the exact cause isn't clear, but the study even tried to isolate the "fat out of shape".....

    Cyanide gas... phosgene... who knows.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

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  4. #24
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    I'm not saying I agree with Brennan's take on cops and firefighters, but part of the point could be that sometimes we take ourselves too seriously? We aren't the only ones whose jobs involve risks. Just because the public relies on us to make them safe doesn't mean we're better than the fisherman that puts food on their table.

    There are plenty of fisherman and loggers who could do something else, but see their jobs as their calling. I know plenty of firemen that couldn't be fishermen or loggers, and vice versa. So while we may be ****ed some ***** hat is trying to make a political statement by showing how others have risky or riskier jobs, we should be careful not to fight back by devaluing them. Disenfranchising other whole communities of workers will not get the fire service where it needs to be.

    Maybe some of us see our profession as more noble than the guy that picks up the cities trash, but really? Noble? Damn straight we do somethings not everyone is cut out to do and our actions can end up positively changing others lives. We ain't the only ones, so while we should be a proud profession, rich in history and holding ourselves in high esteem to the public, it should not be by beating down others or arguing we're somehow above others. We are still humans, others can do our job and will. Last time I checked, I couldn't get a pay check from the FD, it had to come from some city hall clerk who has far less chance of keeping her job with no heroic actions to cite to the paper, but damned if I don't need her every week! We all rely on others to live.

  5. #25
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    All of you trying to justify this jerk's column are giving him way too much credit.

    He's a fool. READ the article again...

    Why does he frigging care how we honor our fallen brothers????

    There is another agenda that is clearly in play here. I'll give you a hint, it has nothing to do with funerals. He makes it real clear in the middle of his column.
    Last edited by ChiefKN; 07-08-2011 at 01:43 AM.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  6. #26
    Forum Member IronValor's Avatar
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    I lost my cousin earlier this year who just happened to be a City of Richmond Firefighter... It was not a LODD but he still had full Fire Department Honors.

    There were Engines that came as far away as North Carolina and I know of a few from Alabama Texas and TN... I remember standing in formation and holding composure as his mother wrapped her arms around me and cried. I remember approaching his Casket placing My hand on his helmet as the tears came uncontrolled. I was first embarrassed untill I looked around at the other Firefighters, Police Officers, and EMS and noticed that there was not a dry eye in the room.

    As I rode in our Engine I noticed folks stopping and getting out of their cars and people coming out of businesses to pay tribute to My cousin... Not one of them minded how long it took for us to lay to rest our Brother..

    Whatever the author of this article was trying to achieve with his words I assure you had the reverse effect for me. A Coal Miner never put his life in harms way so that Others may live.. A Logger never lost his life while trying to save a persons life or property...

    Rest in Peace Tim " Chewy " Farthing.. Your always Ridin with us on Engine 14
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Just noticed the post count for "johnnyirons". 1

    This is not the jonnyirons2, from Cupcake, NY. So, who knows what this poster meant.

    Nice first post though.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Isn't there already a JohnnyIrons on this forum?
    A thread with this article and the exact same title of "at least someone understands" was posted on the rant the other day by a member named yanks2006. Same guy no doubt.

    http://fdnyrant.proboards.com/index....y&thread=10709

  8. #28
    Forum Member scfire86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I would imagine that miners and fishermen would disagree. Certainly the situation deep in the Earth, or out in the Bering Sea, is just as uncontrolled and dangerous to life and limb yet those workers still board the elevator or boat.

    I believe there is a difference between the professions but I don't think your statement describes it completely.
    The earth or the sea isn't intentionally trying to kill them. Unless you view them as conscious living beings who might have those types of thoughts.

    BTW, miners and fishermen went to those locales willingly.

    Now for the record, being a miner is dangerous. I'm not disputing that. And I respect those in that profession. I doubt I could do that job.
    Politics is like driving. To go forward select "D", to go backward select "R."

  9. #29
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    "a coal miner will never put his life his life in harms way, so others may live" ?? Im sorry but that is a pretty arrogant statement. Same for the one about loggers.
    ?

  10. #30
    Forum Member IronValor's Avatar
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    Arrogant?
    I would like to think it was a statement of fact. Thats our Job.
    You can dilute it any way you would wish but when it boils down to its simple form thats what we do. Thats why we train. To save lives and property.

    I might be talking without knowledge here but I do not believe that Coal Miners or Loggers or Fishermen are trained in anything other than self rescue are they?
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

  11. #31
    Forum Member IronValor's Avatar
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    http://coalacademy.kctcs.edu/About_Us
    Kentucky does have 4 Coal Miner academys maybe I am just looking over where Coal Miners are trained the same as and expected to perform dutys such as a Firefighter would.

    http://www.degreefinders.com/educati...-a-logger.html

    I could not really find anything on what schooling or training a Logger would need other than a Highschool diploma and maybe a CDL if operating heavy equipment and no still no indication these guys are trained the same as Firefighters..

    http://www.cfafish.org/
    Again.. Unless I am overlooking something here they are trained in First Aid Concepts and self rescue otherwise they would not need the the Coast Guard.

    http://kyfirecommission.kctcs.edu

    http://www.firehire.com/job_description.htm
    Do not let the ghosts of our fallen brothers gaze upon you and ask " What have you done to my profession?" FTB DTRT EGH

  12. #32
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    So the foreman that stays until he is sure all his men are out is not risking his life? The captain or tool pusher on an offshore rig that insures that everyone is off before he leaves ? As others have said - dont discount others to make yourself look better. Re-read your statement- it only gives fuel to people like the original writer. And as a side note -when I started as a wildland firefighter in the 70s , they would "recruit" all the loggers possible. They may not have been "firefighters" - but they could get the job done.
    ?

  13. #33
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    Just for fun , read about the 1909 Cherry mine fire in illinois -
    ?

  14. #34
    Back In Black ChiefKN's Avatar
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    Again... this is a stupid argument and many of you have missed the point.

    To argue over the relative danger or value of one position over the other is foolish.

    Look a little deeper into this author and you'll understand the spirit and motivation behind his insulting article.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  15. #35
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    The problem with debating a topic like "who has the more dangerous job" is that it's essentially futile to do so. How do you define "danger" and then "quantify" it in order to compare it between completely different occupations? Does training and experience factor into that determination?

    It's common belief that VES is a "dangerous" tactic. Is the quantifiable level of "danger" performing VES the same for a 20-year FDNY truckie vs a 20-month volunteer in a rural department running 150 calls per year?

    If you built side by side the exact same house with the exact same fuel load and set the exact same fire, is the quantifiable level of "danger" fighting that fire exactly the same for a typical 1st alarm response from the Chicago FD vs. a small career department with 5 FFs on-duty and their "back up" (off-duty callback and/or mutual aid) is 10-15 minutes behind the first arriving unit?

    Is the assessment/quantification of "danger" cumulative or more isolated? Assuming a "danger scale" of 1-100. Which job is "more dangerous" - job A which has a constant rating of 75 throughout the shift or job B which has a rating of 25 most of the shift, but can spike to >90 at times?



    Using a raw statistic like on-the-job deaths each year is a very poor way to define "the most dangerous job". There are far too many variables to account for and it implies that the lack of (or lower number of) death(s) in other occupations equates to a lack of (or lower level of) "danger" which may not be the truth.

  16. #36
    MembersZone Subscriber JohnVBFD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    I'd like you to tell me the what you think the authors point is. Because the only point I see is a guy sick of seeing news articles about a fireman's death on the front page as opposed to thrown back on the 10th.
    If that is the only point you see, than that is the only point you will allow yourself to see. I see an author who see's chest thumping, glorifying and bragging going on about how awesome we are. I see an author who most likely aligns himself with the view that we are not needed. I see an author who is most likely among the 2% who even in the face of facts, logic and reason will hold fast that their belief is the correct one.

    But then again, I didn't just read the written words.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    I think there is a lot to learn from LODD's including those 'fat out of shape people' that are dropping. First off we are getting a better understanding of what continued stress can do to cardio vascular system (as most people do not endure the stresses of being toned out at 0245 for a MVA) and how the benefits of diet and exercise can actually turn even the effects of those stresses around. I do not think that every cardiac LODD is due to somebody being out of shape...but I do not have the numbers on that to back it up, I'm guessing you do?
    We are learning all this, which ironically enough I learned in 8th Grade Health class so this isn't new knowledge, yet the numbers of cardiac incidents is not changing. So you are stating that the information about weight and the benefits of cardio are NOT being given to firefighters and this is all new? I think the most likely reasoning is that WE ARE IGNORING IT AND MAKING EXCUSES. Yup see a lot of that. So if it is most likely we are ignoring what amounts to 8th grade study material, what are we learning????

    As to the stats, US Fire Admin. They are easily accessible.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    The basics that we are taught during academy and then drilled on and continually refreshed on through out the years are exactly what I'm talking about when I speak of rigid training. I know that we are required to keep X amount of training hours through out the year, there are some that choose to simply fly by while a great majority go above and beyond.
    You are joking right? You don't read these forums much do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ljm View Post
    Lastly I have no clue what you are talking about with LODDs and mowing a lawn...
    Now I know you only read what is written.

    Quote Originally Posted by tree68 View Post
    Or not - there is a faction that is starting to recognize the impact of cyanide poisoning in such deaths - even involving people who never entered the fire building but who did manage to get a dose of smoke are being found to have suffered from exposure from cyanide.

    The victims get back to the station, go into cardiac arrest, and never stand a chance because we assume they're just out of shape and don't consider that they've actually been poisoned.

    What I'm hearing is that many people who supposedly die of "smoke inhalation" are actually dying of cyanide poisoning - which is treatable. The Europeans are apparently having great success with treating every "smoke inhalation" for cyanide poisoning.
    I'll keep this in mind when I see Joe whose 260lb and can't walk down the hallway without sweating. Faction? Really...? More excuses. Is it possible? Uh yea. I think it would reduce cardiac deaths by a grand total of 3 though.
    Last edited by JohnVBFD; 07-08-2011 at 12:23 PM.
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  17. #37
    makes good girls go bad BLSboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeputyChiefGonzo View Post
    Isn't there already a JohnnyIrons on this forum?
    Yea there is. I KNOW this MUTT ain't him. I know the other one, and while he's a tool bag, he's far from a mutt.
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  18. #38
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    I admit I haven't read all the posts on this topic but I guess it wouldn't change what I am about to say anyways so here goes.

    I haven't been to very many firefighter funerals, and no line of duty death funerals, but to me how WE as firefighters honor our dead is nobody's business but ours. I was at a funeral for a young man who died in a car accident. He was a member of a neighboring volunteer fire department. An incredibly promising young man who was enrolled in the Fire Associate Degree program, had gotten several certifications, and was VERY active in his department. I had him as a student and I can tell you he was well liked and a very respectful and earnest young man. His volunteer fire department decided he deserved a full fire department funeral and they did an excellent job. Fire departments from all over our area showed up for the funeral. The state Honor Guard was there. My son came with me to the funeral and he didn't know this young man but he was very moved by the respect, love and caring that those that were there showed this firefighter, his family, and the fire department. There were very few dry eyes in the church.

    The community was there to show support. It was a bitterly cold, miserable winter day, and yet the church was overflowing. The fire apparatus and firefighters made their way to the cemetary and laid this young man to rest the best way we could.

    Another funeral that I attended was for Fire Chief Chuck Himsel of Mount Horeb Wisconsin. Chuck had been a member of the Fire Department Mount Horeb for decades, how long exactly I don't know, and Chief for as long as I knew him. He also had recently retired from Madison Area Technical College where he had taught the Associate degree Program since I believe 1980. Chuck passed away at home and the department knew that they had to give him full honors for his years of service. It was incredible, 2 churches were packed to the gills and more people were putside. Dozens of pieces of fire apparatus lined the streets. A processions of fire apparatus and firefighters marching accompanied Chuck to the cemetary. The streets were lined with people showing respect for Chuck, a man through both Mount Horeb Fire, and teaching, had touched thousands of lives.

    I don't give a flying **** about those that don't understand why we do what we do to honor our dead. We are a family and we need to show that respect, love and caring for our Brothers and Sisters, their families and their Fire Department. Those who choose not to understand will never be convinced it is the right thing so why waste time on them.
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  19. #39
    ljm
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    @JohnVBFD
    I'll try looking deeper into what people are writing in the future, but I think an article like this, meant for the general public, is meant as a surface piece. You can, as you put it, take whatever points you feel like interpreting out of it, I'll take the words written down as published.

    I think we all learned early on that being fat does not equate to being healthy, I was talking about real numbers, are all those LODD's for cardiac arrest really from fat guys, are we looking at something as simple as their BMI's? or are we looking at there blood work, body fat percentages, etc?

    Also, I do read these threads...but are they really a true representation of the fire service population? If you think so, well then there is no point in belaboring the point about training with you.

    I am in no way saying that everybody in the fire service is in top shape and on top of continuous training (let alone the minimum basics), but I'm not going to say that the majority of people in this field run around chest thumping and saying that we deserve a national hero holiday. I think the other is taking the exact opposite approach and saying that the jobs FF's do is glorified. Even if true, who glorifies it...my answer is the media, it's no fault of the man/woman doing this job day in and day out.

    Also, didn't mean to belittle your amazing LODD/lawn mowing line by not getting it...you'll have to dumb it down quite a bit for a person like me.

    And lastly, you can agree with the as little or as much as what the author is writing (or intending to write) all you want. I'm pretty open to constructive criticism that you can learn from and improve from. But when that criticism is simply meant to be destructive and comes from a person who has most likely never walked into a fire house, I take offense to it.
    Last edited by ljm; 07-08-2011 at 07:18 PM.

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    At the end of the day, for every one Mutt that writes something like this, there are 1,000 civilians who still appreciate us and the job we do.

    Enough said.

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