1. #1
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default St. Louis FD Quints....

    Anybody here on the St. Louis FD, or know the story of their quints???

    I happened to be at Interstate Detroit Diesel when I walked by one of their rigs. The ladder and pump was removed, and ALOT of new MAJOR parts were installed. Looked like it was going through a refurb.

    Asked the service manager about all the new parts, and he said that it is one of 10 rigs to be refurbished. He also said another 10 rigs are being put to pasture. In total, they are to get 10 rigs refurbed, and 10 new ones.

    Now my curiosity has the better of me. Is this a voluntary thing they are doing, or is it something that we went through 10 years ago. By that, I mean that we didn't do annual ladder inspections on them by a third party. When one had a very serious issue, the whole fleet of aerials got inspected, and most of them failed for one reason or another. We had to purchase 6 new aerials and have them delivered, like yesterday. (this happened a couple years before I started, not that it makes any difference)

    I'm just looking for some info on them, and not trying to give the dept. a bad rap.

    FM1
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  2. #2
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,325

    Default

    This is part of the switch back to an engine/ladder concept for the city. In addition to taking delivery of several new Smeal pumpers, they're also doing a major refurb of several of their older quints. It wasn't due to neglect, just trying to lengthen the service life of the vehicle.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  3. #3
    Forum Member
    FFWALT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Nebraska
    Posts
    362

    Default

    FIREMECH1,

    When we were at Smeal in late 2008 working on our engine they had a picture of the St. Louis quints and the rep commented that St. Louis was going back to the engine/ladder concept and away from the quints. That was the last I heard from Smeal but that seems in line with what was posted and what you saw.
    Train like you want to fight.
    www.kvfd.net

  4. #4
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Hillsboro, MO
    Posts
    238

    Default

    They are already taking steps toward that as they have at least one truck in service that is solely an engine. They are also changing their truck colors to Black on top and red on bottom.

  5. #5
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,325

    Default

    The Smeal engines are in service at Engines 1, 2, 8, 23, 24, 26, 28, 31, and 32. I believe there might be a couple of additional ones as well. A member on another board, who's associated with the STLFD shop, said that they expect the refurbs to take about 100 days per rig.

    The quints, which were labeled as engines but called pumpers, are now designated as trucks. The 100' rigs are "Hook and Ladder".

    Some photos I took of the new engines at FDIC this year...



    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    FWDbuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Pee-Ayy!
    Posts
    7,411

    Default

    I like that tailboard line! Thats pretty snazzy!
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

  7. #7
    Savage / Hyneman 08'

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Nice big intake and discharge piping on the officers side. Pump size?
    We do not rise to the occasion. We fall back to our level of training.

  8. #8
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,325

    Default

    I know the Hook & Ladders are 2250gpm, but I can't swear that the new engines are.

    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  9. #9
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    224

    Default

    I didn't realize Smeal offered the ergonomic hosebed on ENGINES! That's a first for me. I wonder what size tank is above it, and how that effects handling/ center of gravity.

    As for the tailboard crosslays- it looks like there are actually two. I recall reading an article in another magazine on the St Louis quints, where they specifically asked for ALL intakes and discharges to go on the officer's side pump panel or rear- none on the drivers pump panel. The article also said they all had 2000gpm pumps ( the 75' quints), and they wanted no crosslays- so nobody had to climb up top. ( Those quints had them in the high side compartments- 2x 1.75", and a 2.5" deadlay in the roll out hosebed) Looks like those same ideas were used here.

  10. #10
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,325

    Default

    A couple of more shots that may help you...





    The Command Light is stowed where the hosebed would normally be on a pumper.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    I like that tailboard line! Thats pretty snazzy!
    That's cool....
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  12. #12
    Forum Member
    FyredUp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Rural Wisconsin, Retired from the burbs of Milwaukee
    Posts
    10,171

    Default

    Our newest rig has crosslays in the front bumper and to me the hose bed being down low like that, whether on the front bumper, or back step, makes complete sense. No climbing, or reaching over the pump panel, is required to empty the bed. And no climbing, or reaching, is required for loading the bed and usually less people are needed.

    I applaud St Louis for thinking outside the box and coming up with a rig that fits their needs.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  13. #13
    MembersZone Subscriber
    voyager9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Southern NJ
    Posts
    2,007

    Default

    I like the low hose bed.. I assume the whole thing pulls out for repacking?

    Also, what's directly above it? Looks like a booster reel. Also, how big is that diamond-plate door? It's hard to tell from the pics but is it enough for a few ground ladders?
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

  14. #14
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,325

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    I like the low hose bed.. I assume the whole thing pulls out for repacking?

    Also, what's directly above it? Looks like a booster reel. Also, how big is that diamond-plate door? It's hard to tell from the pics but is it enough for a few ground ladders?
    Yes, that's Smeal EHL (Ergonomic Hose Load). It's the same device they've been using on the quints for a decade or so, so they must like how it operates.

    It is a booster reel over the EHL.

    The diamond plate door does cover the ladders, hooks, etc.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  15. #15
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,959

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nozzle nut 22 View Post
    I didn't realize Smeal offered the ergonomic hosebed on ENGINES! That's a first for me. I wonder what size tank is above it, and how that effects handling/ center of gravity.
    Not sure on the tank size, but think it might be 500? From a poster on another forum "in the know", they stated that the Smeal engineers told them that the weight of the water and the hosebed & hose was pretty much the same and therefore switching them really didn't affect that so much.

    Also, I believe they just started to offer the EHL on engines. Not sure if they did it on their own or if came about as a request from St. Louis???

  16. #16
    Forum Member
    Weruj1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    7,857

    Default

    Great pics !!!!!!!!!!!!
    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

  17. #17
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,325

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Weruj1 View Post
    Great pics !!!!!!!!!!!!
    Thanks! I shoot for some of the trade journals.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    FIREMECH1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    HUSKER LAND
    Posts
    2,425

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FFWALT View Post
    FIREMECH1,

    When we were at Smeal in late 2008 working on our engine they had a picture of the St. Louis quints and the rep commented that St. Louis was going back to the engine/ladder concept and away from the quints. That was the last I heard from Smeal but that seems in line with what was posted and what you saw.
    The removal of the pump and ladder was so they could be sent out for rebuilding. They plan on reinstalling both the pump and ladder. Smeal has the ladder, and is going through the refurb/rebuild of it. Not sure where the pump went to.

    One thing that did catch my eye, was actually how well the body and frame looked. Not knowing the age of it, I'd say it was only 5-8 years old. It was really pretty clean, and didn't look all that abused.

    @ Box... Are the new engines a step toward the direction of replacing the quints that are being trash canned? From what I've seen, they were heavily dependent on quints. If so, this would fill in what FFWALT, was talking about.

    FM1
    Last edited by FIREMECH1; 07-20-2011 at 02:17 AM.
    I'm the one Fire and Rescue calls, when they need to be Rescued.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastKyFF
    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  19. #19
    Let's talk fire trucks!
    BoxAlarm187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    3,325

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FIREMECH1 View Post
    @ Box... Are the new engines a step toward the direction of replacing the quints that are being trash canned? From what I've seen, they were heavily dependent on quints.
    Correct, they were the first department in the US to use the Total Quint Concept. However, they're now moving away from that back to a more traditional engine/ladder deployment model.
    Last edited by BoxAlarm187; 07-20-2011 at 10:45 AM.
    Career Fire Captain
    Volunteer Chief Officer


    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

  20. #20
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fantasy Island
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Maybe Iím a creature of habit or just dinosaur, but I do not see the advantage of this type of design for a standard Engine Co that operates in an urban environment. Where is all the hose?? What about hand stretches on NFP (non-standpipe) multipleís, Commercials, set back structures, etc. IMO, not much versatility for overall Engine Opís -- ability to place multiple non-preconnected lines in operation? It appears to have an LDH supply line bed, room for a limited static bed next to that and 3 or so preconnects??

    I probably donít see the advantage to this design because Iím not familiar with St Louisís engine operations. I would guess they use some type of manifold/gated Y when deploying multiple handlines for stretches beyond the reach of preconnects? In the end the design must work for them --- glad to see them getting away from the (manpower killers) quints.

    Be Safe.

  21. #21
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    2,959

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nys1 View Post
    Maybe Iím a creature of habit or just dinosaur, but I do not see the advantage of this type of design for a standard Engine Co that operates in an urban environment.
    The simple answer is that aren't "standard" Engine Companies, they were "Quint Companies". Even though they were labeled as "engines", they functioned as an engine or truck depending on order of arrival or as otherwise directed.

    Where is all the hose?? What about hand stretches on NFP (non-standpipe) multipleís, Commercials, set back structures, etc. IMO, not much versatility for overall Engine Opís -- ability to place multiple non-preconnected lines in operation? It appears to have an LDH supply line bed, room for a limited static bed next to that and 3 or so preconnects??
    Maybe they don't need lots of hose? Some FDs limit the number of lines that come off at a fire.

    In the end the design must work for them --- glad to see them getting away from the (manpower killers) quints.
    Call it a pet peeve, but the Quints aren't the "manpower killers". The true "manpower killers" are the City Hall Dwellers and too often the person in the white FD shirt with 5 bugles on the collar.

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fantasy Island
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    The simple answer is that aren't "standard" Engine Companies, they were "Quint Companies". Even though they were labeled as "engines", they functioned as an engine or truck depending on order of arrival or as otherwise directed.
    From what I understand as stated in prior posts here, they are thankfully abandoning the quint Ėmanpower killing concept and going back to dedicated truck & engine coís. I was specifically talking about an engine design/layout for an urban dept. Very happy for the St Louis members - going back to whatís proven to work -- in their best interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Maybe they don't need lots of hose? Some FDs limit the number of lines that come off at a fire.
    Limiting the number of lines coming off one engine has nothing to do with my statement. We too limit lines off an engine two or three depending upon circumstances (normally two). My question was how do they handle those long stretches beyond the reach of their 4 or 6 length preconnects if thatís what they are using? Ė Do they merely extend those lines? Iím sure St Louis seeís quite a bit of work in multi story NFP multiple dwellings that routinely require (what I'm accustomed to) 10 or more lengths to reach the fire floor/apt, as is probably the case in most other older urban FDís. Similarly, the large sq footage commercials, and structures with large set backs -- two/three story townhouse/garden apartment complexes. I know other large urban depts. utilize manifolds/gates, special hose loads/rolls/tactics -- hose bundle's? St Louis must have some type of system/tactics in place especially with quints and the current engine design Ė limited hose bed.

    It appears to me that the engine design pictured above places a higher priority on compartment storage than mixed hose loading. But that seems to be the trend in engine design today and not what I'm accustomed. As I stated before it must work for them. I am not under the delusion that my preference for engine design/layout is the right way or only way. Just trying to understand how this design is advantageous to engine ops in the various types of structural fire scenarios that St Louis encounters.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireMedic049 View Post
    Call it a pet peeve, but the Quints aren't the "manpower killers". The true "manpower killers" are the City Hall Dwellers and too often the person in the white FD shirt with 5 bugles on the collar.
    Right or wrong quints have been used as a tool to kill manpower i.e. the quint concept. Do more with less that some MFGís have out and out proclaimed these rigs are capable of doing. Properly staffed and trained engine and truck coís highly capable of performing their respective jobs keep us safe -- period. Gadgets, tools and concepts that lend some to believe we can do more with less is not good for us, the public we serve or our profession. Youíre correct; it boils down to City Hall and the top level Chiefs selling their troops out. Disgusting how you wind up seeing some of these same clowns being given credence selling their wears on the lecture circuit, books and articles.

    Be Safe.

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    voyager9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Southern NJ
    Posts
    2,007

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nys1 View Post
    My question was how do they handle those long stretches beyond the reach of their 4 or 6 length preconnects if thatís what they are using? Ė Do they merely extend those lines?

    It appears to me that the engine design pictured above places a higher priority on compartment storage than mixed hose loading.
    I don't know how STL would deploy the lines. My guess would be that anything beyond the reach of the rear preconnects would use a 3" leader that's stored next to the LDH in the EHL.

    Quote Originally Posted by nys1 View Post
    Right or wrong quints have been used as a tool to kill manpower i.e. the quint concept.
    The problem isn't with Quints.. but with Managers using quints as a strawman to justify closing units. Quints can work well when they replace other units 1:1. It's when a Quint is used to justify the closing of an Engine or Ladder in a 2:1 ratio that problems arise.
    So you call this your free country
    Tell me why it costs so much to live
    -3dd

  24. #24
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Northeast Coast
    Posts
    3,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by voyager9 View Post
    The problem isn't with Quints.. but with Managers using quints as a strawman to justify closing units. Quints can work well when they replace other units 1:1. It's when a Quint is used to justify the closing of an Engine or Ladder in a 2:1 ratio that problems arise.
    You'd like to think it's that simple, but really it isn't. Any multi-function apparatus or tool can and most likely will be used to eliminate replacing the tools whose functions it covers. Quints allow this to be a more readily attained goal when in place. How could any budget manager see it differently? You mean you can buy a truck that does what two others do? You mean the crew of a quint can do either engine work or truck work? Well, unless you're small enough that all your apparatus goes to work on most calls, then they see a quint as a resource management tool. I'll give you that all too often the FD admin allows this theory to prevail in the face of budget cuts or sometime good fire department management.

    Look at the latest Fire Apparatus Journal, there's nice two page piece on a FD in upstate NY that bought their first aerial, a 75 ft. quint. Reading the comments on how they arrived at the decision as a large committee it makes you wonder. They determined a quint could do the role of either truck or engine allowing them to send just one apparatus to alarms. This in the face of new multi-story construction and higher hazard occupancies moving into their first due! Of course I don't know he whole story but it's pretty easy to see some of the flaws in the logic on the surface.

    Quints are not the ultimate manpower killer as they're inanimate objects that require humans to make the poor decisions. But like a man with a gun, the likelihood of getting yourself into a more dangerous situation exists when that tool is right at hand vs. more prudent actions when it's not readily available. It takes a FD with strong leadership and the fortitude to ensure such a tool is not used to reduce manpower and proper fireground equipment and staffing. Just my humble (to some feeble) opinion.
    Last edited by RFDACM02; 07-22-2011 at 12:46 PM.

  25. #25
    Forum Member
    gunnyv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    1,433

    Default

    If I remember correctly, STL went to quints to when they shut down most of the double houses during a budget crunch in the 80s. So they went from having 34 firehouses with 34 engines and 10-15 truck companies to 34 firehouses with 34 quints/4 H&L towers/2 Rescues.

    So if they are going back to separate engine/truck companies, how many of each will they have? I bet the total won't be more than 38.
    Last edited by gunnyv; 07-22-2011 at 01:32 PM. Reason: grammar

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. World Of Fire Report: 04-03-04
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-04-2004, 12:58 PM
  2. World Of Fire Report: 03-31-04
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-01-2004, 09:01 PM
  3. World Of Fire Report: 09-26-03
    By PaulBrown in forum World of Fire Daily Report
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-27-2003, 08:06 PM
  4. Quints
    By imtxff44 in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 05-29-2003, 12:16 AM
  5. Saint Louis (MO) F.D. Quints
    By 15hoseman in forum Firefighters Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-04-2001, 02:13 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register