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Thread: FDNY Exam 2000

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    Just caught this bit of info from the UFANYC meeting minutes last week. Looks like one way or the other things will be moving along very quickly in the coming weeks.

    Firefighter Entrance Exam Update
    We have been informed that on 9/24/12, the City will submit its arguments to Judge Garaufis, urging him to find that the new Firefighter Entrance Exam (Exam No. 2000) was properly validated and may be used to hire new candidates. The City will also ask that the Court approve the scoring method for the test. We presently do not know if the City will suggest the typical rank order scoring or some alternate method, such as "banding." The attorneys for the Department of Justice and the Vulcan Society will also submit their arguments either supporting or opposing the validation of the new exam and the scoring method suggested by the City. Once the papers submitted by the parties are available for public review, we will advise the membership of what they contain.

    On October 1st there will be a Fairness Hearing before Judge Garaufis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River6019 View Post
    Just caught this bit of info from the UFANYC meeting minutes last week. Looks like one way or the other things will be moving along very quickly in the coming weeks.

    Firefighter Entrance Exam Update
    We have been informed that on 9/24/12, the City will submit its arguments to Judge Garaufis, urging him to find that the new Firefighter Entrance Exam (Exam No. 2000) was properly validated and may be used to hire new candidates. The City will also ask that the Court approve the scoring method for the test. We presently do not know if the City will suggest the typical rank order scoring or some alternate method, such as "banding." The attorneys for the Department of Justice and the Vulcan Society will also submit their arguments either supporting or opposing the validation of the new exam and the scoring method suggested by the City. Once the papers submitted by the parties are available for public review, we will advise the membership of what they contain.

    On October 1st there will be a Fairness Hearing before Judge Garaufis.

    The issue that may arise is that the city wants the test to be scored one way (rank order) and the vulcans may want it scored another (banding). That may be the point where they have to go to the second circuit...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MerritMatters View Post
    The issue that may arise is that the city wants the test to be scored one way (rank order) and the vulcans may want it scored another (banding). That may be the point where they have to go to the second circuit...
    Actually, it may very well be the other way around. I believe the city and the court are gonna want to bring this proposal to the vulcans and most likely the vulcans will agree to the band scoring. The only reason is because it makes sense to band the scores in order to get more minorities on the job. This is how it was done in other cities and most likely be the case here. I just don't understand how this hearing will make any difference in this case if the judge's mind is already made up. I mean he's been attacking the FDNY for years now, I don't see how this hearing will be any different.
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    I'm not too familiar with the Banding scoring, I assume that numerical grades are basically replaced by letter grading ( a,b,c etc.). My question is what happens when you have candidates who get extra points such as residency or military, are they put in the same ranged as a person who got 100 with no extra points or are they placed on a ranged above 100?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jukez View Post
    I'm not too familiar with the Banding scoring, I assume that numerical grades are basically replaced by letter grading ( a,b,c etc.). My question is what happens when you have candidates who get extra points such as residency or military, are they put in the same ranged as a person who got 100 with no extra points or are they placed on a ranged above 100?
    This is how they do it for the municipal exams take a look. http://www.cs.ny.gov/jobseeker/local/qanda.cfm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravendmb1 View Post
    Are members of EMS allowed to take the promotional exam prior to having 2 years in civil service status?
    Yes, in order to sit for the exam the only real requirement was that you held civil service status as an EMT/Paramedic, or, if you were on 6019 you could also be an EMS lieutenant.

    In order to be promoted it states that you must have 2 years time in a civil service title. There are going to be a bunch of EMTs sitting around waiting to hit their 2 year mark assuming the city actually holds them to that (I think that they should).

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    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1168399

    Encouraging. I'm betting the scores will be released in the next month(ish).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jukez View Post
    I'm not too familiar with the Banding scoring, I assume that numerical grades are basically replaced by letter grading ( a,b,c etc.). My question is what happens when you have candidates who get extra points such as residency or military, are they put in the same ranged as a person who got 100 with no extra points or are they placed on a ranged above 100?
    Banding won't stop at 100. List members with a score of 115 and 110 can be banded too. Basically, if anyone scored close to you, you'll be lumped in the same band. Nevermind your hard work, you're just like everyone else (sarcasm, this is just the theory of the banding system.) It's another sneaky way to give a group of people a chance to earn more "points" or look better than they really are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDNYPD View Post
    Banding won't stop at 100. List members with a score of 115 and 110 can be banded too. Basically, if anyone scored close to you, you'll be lumped in the same band. Nevermind your hard work, you're just like everyone else (sarcasm, this is just the theory of the banding system.) It's another sneaky way to give a group of people a chance to earn more "points" or look better than they really are.
    I see. I guess this will make it that much harder for someone who doesn't have extra points to break the 100 mark. Given the amount of people that took the test there will be a whole load of people banded in the 100 range. Then I assume the lottery system would be applied and getting this job would be all on luck. Great.

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    I read PSI's packet to the court explaining the exam scoring etc. I think banding would be unnecessary the way they scored it. In scoring the exam, they rounded decimals, i.e. you only see scores of 100, 99, 98 etc. Ties are broken the same way they have been, last 5 of social then first four.

    Point is you can argue that the list has been randomized already with huge numbers of candidates with the same score being lumped together with luck (your SSN#) giving you priority over others.

    According to PSI you have a shot if you score a 97 or above, 8548 applicants scored 97 or above. 1304 scored 102 or above from there:

    101- 856 with this score
    100- 1105 "
    99- 1443 "
    98- 1679 "
    97- 2161 "

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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMMEFIRE600 View Post
    I read PSI's packet to the court explaining the exam scoring etc. I think banding would be unnecessary the way they scored it. In scoring the exam, they rounded decimals, i.e. you only see scores of 100, 99, 98 etc. Ties are broken the same way they have been, last 5 of social then first four.

    Point is you can argue that the list has been randomized already with huge numbers of candidates with the same score being lumped together with luck (your SSN#) giving you priority over others.

    According to PSI you have a shot if you score a 97 or above, 8548 applicants scored 97 or above. 1304 scored 102 or above from there:

    101- 856 with this score
    100- 1105 "
    99- 1443 "
    98- 1679 "
    97- 2161 "
    Where did you get this PSI packet from gimmefire? And are these numbers accurate because they don't really match the numbers posted in the link from Manhattan medic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jukez View Post
    Where did you get this PSI packet from gimmefire? And are these numbers accurate because they don't really match the numbers posted in the link from Manhattan medic.
    Court doc. 100% accurate according to PSI. Keep in mind those numbers listed are people within each respective score. Also, the news has a total applicant pool number which includes promos.

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    So 97 or higher is what they think the cut is to be processed. I'm wondering what they base that projection on? For example, with NYPD processing they say they hire about 1 in every 10 candidates they send a letter to. Does anyone have any idea what the FDNY average is?

    I did some quick math and if they assumed 650 firefighters to be hired to close the gap, divide that by the 9,417 that scored 97 or better and you get 1 in every 14-15 candidates, which seems a bit low. But then again, that doesn't assume that 300 of these FFs will be EMTs & Medics. Also, they could be assuming a higher number of new hires. Basically I'm wondering how they assume 97 is the cutoff!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMMEFIRE600 View Post
    I read PSI's packet to the court explaining the exam scoring etc. I think banding would be unnecessary the way they scored it. In scoring the exam, they rounded decimals, i.e. you only see scores of 100, 99, 98 etc. Ties are broken the same way they have been, last 5 of social then first four.

    Point is you can argue that the list has been randomized already with huge numbers of candidates with the same score being lumped together with luck (your SSN#) giving you priority over others.

    According to PSI you have a shot if you score a 97 or above, 8548 applicants scored 97 or above. 1304 scored 102 or above from there:

    101- 856 with this score
    100- 1105 "
    99- 1443 "
    98- 1679 "
    97- 2161 "


    Is there any mention of how the test was graded and who decided how it was graded? Specifically, did PSI grade it how they saw fit, or were they influenced by any outside sources (the city, vulcans, etc.)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CableGuy516 View Post
    So 97 or higher is what they think the cut is to be processed. I'm wondering what they base that projection on? For example, with NYPD processing they say they hire about 1 in every 10 candidates they send a letter to. Does anyone have any idea what the FDNY average is?

    I did some quick math and if they assumed 650 firefighters to be hired to close the gap, divide that by the 9,417 that scored 97 or better and you get 1 in every 14-15 candidates, which seems a bit low. But then again, that doesn't assume that 300 of these FFs will be EMTs & Medics. Also, they could be assuming a higher number of new hires. Basically I'm wondering how they assume 97 is the cutoff!


    Prior exams have been about 1 hire to every 3 list #s. Give or take depending if you're at the top of the list (less than 3 #s) or towards the end of the life of the list (more than 3#s).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMMEFIRE600 View Post
    Ties are broken the same way they have been, last 5 of social then first four.
    Could you please elaborate on this? When you say last 5 of social then first 4, do you mean that if the last 5 of my social is 23367 that I will be ranked better than someone whose last 5 is 98899?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CableGuy516 View Post
    So 97 or higher is what they think the cut is to be processed. I'm wondering what they base that projection on? For example, with NYPD processing they say they hire about 1 in every 10 candidates they send a letter to. Does anyone have any idea what the FDNY average is?

    I did some quick math and if they assumed 650 firefighters to be hired to close the gap, divide that by the 9,417 that scored 97 or better and you get 1 in every 14-15 candidates, which seems a bit low. But then again, that doesn't assume that 300 of these FFs will be EMTs & Medics. Also, they could be assuming a higher number of new hires. Basically I'm wondering how they assume 97 is the cutoff!
    PSI factored a 2 to 1 ratio for promos. 4 to 1 for open competitive.

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    Thank you Hopeful and GimmeFire!

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    From basically skimming hundreds of pages, in my estimation, PSI handled the scoring with all of the input/data they received from firefighters, random testing they held on their own and a number of other factors. Seems like the personality stuff and the knowledge questions are split 50/50. For the knowledge/cognitive the video is weighted more than the other questions, 70/30. The scoring is more detailed than that but thats the gist of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CableGuy516 View Post
    Could you please elaborate on this? When you say last 5 of social then first 4, do you mean that if the last 5 of my social is 23367 that I will be ranked better than someone whose last 5 is 98899?
    Correct. Basically they swap the last five with the first four and use this number (starting at zero) for tie breaks. It'd be nice to have a SSN# with a zero as your 5th number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMMEFIRE600 View Post
    From basically skimming hundreds of pages, in my estimation, PSI handled the scoring with all of the input/data they received from firefighters, random testing they held on their own and a number of other factors. Seems like the personality stuff and the knowledge questions are split 50/50. For the knowledge/cognitive the video is weighted more than the other questions, 70/30. The scoring is more detailed than that but thats the gist of it.
    Thank you for the scoop gimmefire. Did anywhere in there state what Percentage PC from the personality section was worth? Atleast if we knew this we could get a rough idea of what our scores would be based on the protest review section ( even though some answers might be changed or taken out)

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    Speaking of the protested questions, weren't they supposed to invite everyone back in to view the results of their protest? I thought I read that somewhere.

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    Gimmefire, did that packet specify what each section was worth? Like did they mention if a certain portion was worth a whole point, half, a third of a point?
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    Get ready guys. After us EMS guys go in you're all def going. I started the CPAT prep at the rock. Its fun. As per the LTs of the fitness staff they are going to be starting a class of 300+ ems Jan 14th (with judges ok) and like Manhattan Medic stated, if they can they will have another full class of EMS after that in July but most likely it will be mixed with EMS and OC. He said that they will be putting classes of 300 in every 5 months for AT LEAST the next 2 to 3 years. We have waited long enough and I know its hard to fall for the hype after all everyone has been through but I think this is it. Instructors at The Rock are dead serious about everyone getting in shape NOW and they offer everyone so much help and opportunity to improve. Take advantage of it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerkAlert View Post
    Get ready guys. After us EMS guys go in you're all def going. I started the CPAT prep at the rock. Its fun. As per the LTs of the fitness staff they are going to be starting a class of 300+ ems Jan 14th (with judges ok) and like Manhattan Medic stated, if they can they will have another full class of EMS after that in July but most likely it will be mixed with EMS and OC. He said that they will be putting classes of 300 in every 5 months for AT LEAST the next 2 to 3 years. We have waited long enough and I know its hard to fall for the hype after all everyone has been through but I think this is it. Instructors at The Rock are dead serious about everyone getting in shape NOW and they offer everyone so much help and opportunity to improve. Take advantage of it!
    Thats great news sir. Keep us posted please. Now we just need that 97 and we are all good.

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