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Thread: FDNY Exam 2000

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    Hey guys, new to the forum and just wanted to wish you all the best of luck. I will be a trainee firefighter with the London Fire Brigade by the end of the month and I know how frustrating it can be. Personally, it has taken me 5-6 years to get my dream job so not sure how that compares to applying in the states.

    Once again, best of luck.

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    More oversight looms for FDNY after minority concerns

    By MITCHEL MADDUX

    Last Updated: 9:52 PM, September 30, 2011

    Posted: 9:33 PM, September 30, 2011
    More Print

    A federal judge today suggested that broader judicial oversight of New York City's fire department may be necessary to assure that minority firefighters are fairly treated.

    Brooklyn federal Judge Nicholas Garaufis released his findings after presiding over a special trial focusing on the issue, concluding that the Vulcan Society - an organization representing the city's black firefighters - largely had proven their claims that minorities trying to become firefighters suffer disadvantages that go beyond the applicant testing process.

    Although the judge plans to issue a second decision outlining specific remedies for these problems in the near future, the decision suggests that broader oversight of the nation's largest fire department is already in the cards.

    "The court cannot adequately ensure the city’s compliance with applicable equal employment opportunity laws and policies...in the absence of court supervision," the judge wrote.

    The findings clear the way for the possible appointment of a special court-appointed monitor to oversee all aspects of hiring, training, and promotion practices for new firefighters at the city's fire department.

    The judge's opinion comes just two months after ranking department brass testified at the special bench trial, which focused on how the FDNY can attract more minority applicants to an agency overwhelmingly staffed by white firefighters.

    A "formal recruitment program" is necessary, the judge wrote, in an analytical 80-page opinion that faulted the city for doing too little and devoting too few resources to address the longstanding problem.

    "The court finds...that the under-representation of black firefighters in the FDNY — a direct result and vestige of the city’s pattern and practice of discrimination against black firefighter candidates — is responsible for making blacks significantly less likely to apply to become New York City firefighters," the judge wrote.

    Garaufis said that FDNY and city officials had tried to downplay problem, saying "the city’s culture of bureaucratic blame-shifting and accountability avoidance [shows]...that the city does not want to be held accountable for the results of its recruitment efforts. This is unacceptable."

    The judge's written findings draw heavily from the August hearings, which included testimony about several racist incidents at city fire stations.

    Other damaging charges this summer highlighted the dominance of "old boy network" connections in FDNY's hiring practices, where friends, relatives, or neighbors were favored over minority applicants without inside Fire Department connections.

    Garaufis addressed these allegations, saying that FDNY must "change the perception that the job is available only to white male candidates."

    City officials said they were not pleased with the judge's conclusions.

    "We respectfully disagree with some of the court's findings and are continuing to study this lengthy 81-page decision. The next steps the City will take depend on what the judge's subsequent rulings are regarding remedial steps," said Georgia Pestana, a city attorney.

    The judge's opinion is yet another development stemming from a 2007 lawsuit filed against the fire department by the US Justice Department, with the aim of forcing the city to hire more minorities at an agency where white men make up 93 percent of the 11,000 firefighters in its ranks.

    Garaufis has ruled previously that the FDNY's entrance test unfairly discriminates against black and Hispanic applicants.

    Mary Jo White, the former Manhattan US attorney appointed as a special master to create a new FDNY entrance exam, said in a separate report today that her efforts to create an entrance test that's more fair are proceeding on schedule for early 2012.

    City officials say their efforts to redress the imbalance in the FDNY's ranks has been paying off, as they focused recruitment efforts on New York's neighborhoods with diverse populations.

    Roughly half of the applicants who want to take the city's upcoming firefighter exam are minorities, city officials say, and the judge acknowledged that such numbers are record-breaking.

    mmaddux@nypost.com

    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/b...#ixzz1ZUhhSAyQ
    Exam 2000
    Score: 99
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    At what point can the city appeal?

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    I could be wrong, but after reading the court document, I don't know if the proposed changes will have much effect on the hiring. It sounds like it will still be based on our scores so even if worst comes to worst and things stay as they are, hopefully we will still have a fighting chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadrunner09 View Post
    Alright. I am not in any way shape or form insinuating that this book or class are not great resources. In fact I will research it further and see what's up for sure.

    However that cover made me think I clicked to a gay romantic novel...
    I too can vouch for the book. Like Merritt said, it's got a lot of info in it, and it's offered as a class. I attended NJCU, and took the class with the author, who is one very knowledgeable professor. I would definitely recommend looking into the book. It definitely helped me prepare to pass the CPAT and physical tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MFES View Post
    I could be wrong, but after reading the court document, I don't know if the proposed changes will have much effect on the hiring. It sounds like it will still be based on our scores so even if worst comes to worst and things stay as they are, hopefully we will still have a fighting chance.
    None of the nonsense this judge has spewed in the last few years leads me to believe that he won't throw this new exam out the window if the results aren't up to his liking. That's my real fear at this moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vekdoggs75 View Post
    None of the nonsense this judge has spewed in the last few years leads me to believe that he won't throw this new exam out the window if the results aren't up to his liking. That's my real fear at this moment.
    I agree, I think if he can, he will do whatever possible to keep himself from looking unsuccessful and thus proving himself wrong.
    I wondering at what point the city can appeal?

    In that recent chief article something was mentioned about gossip that other federal judges feel he is letting his emotions get involved in his ruling, but I could have misinterpreted something. I am curious how and when the appeal process can start? Thanks
    Last edited by BrooklynBorn; 10-10-2011 at 11:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBorn View Post
    I agree, I think if he can, he will do whatever possible to keep himself from looking unsuccessful and thus proving himself wrong.
    I wondering at what point the city can appeal?

    In that recent chief article something was mentioned about gossip that other federal judges feel he is letting his emotions get involved in his ruling, but I could have misinterpreted something. I am curious how and when the appeal process can start? Thanks
    Any chance you can post the article?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MerritMatters View Post
    Any chance you can post the article?
    Yeah I remember hearing the same thing, but I dont think it was federal judges. I thought it was some random attorneys who handle these types of cases. Either way I'd love to read the article if you could post it dude. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vekdoggs75 View Post
    Yeah I remember hearing the same thing, but I dont think it was federal judges. I thought it was some random attorneys who handle these types of cases. Either way I'd love to read the article if you could post it dude. Thanks.
    Yeah thats why I referred to it as gossip, it was (I think) and employment attorney relaying what HE said was the feelings of other judges. He then backtracked a little and made it seem like he couldn't blame the judge for being emotional because of the percentages. I could be reading into too much, or misinterpreting it all together, but who knows because this whole article to me see biased and favoring the Vulcans.

    THIS IS THE PART:

    Adding to the charged emotions in the case has been Judge Garaufis’s conduct. He has on more than one occasion berated city lawyers, sometimes for merely being persistent in cross-examining witnesses. He briefly appointed former Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau as the Special Master to work out solutions in the case at a time when Mr. Morgenthau and the Mayor were embroiled in a nasty public feud over an unrelated matter. And his finding of disparate impact concerning the 2007 exam even though it produced record numbers of minority candidates who passed with scores high enough to make their appointments likely struck more than a few outside observers as an overreach that would roil the waters rather than calming them.
    One veteran employment lawyer, speaking conditioned on anonymity, said that among many of his colleagues, “There’s a sense that [Judge Garaufis’s] emotions may have clouded his judgment. He’s gone pretty far out there—he’s taken some pretty dramatic steps that are beyond what most District Judges would take.
    “But,” he continued, “on its face the numbers [of black firefighters and, to a lesser extent, Latinos] are so small, and when you bootstrap in and see the history, Garaufis clearly sees a problem. The conflict with civil service and merit lies when you have this incredible racial disparity.”
    He was referring to the fact that just 3 percent of the firefighting force is black—the same percentage as before a 1973 court ruling that imposed a quota hiring system that gave hiring preference to black and Latino candidates and for a while boosted black representation as high as 8 percent.


    The whole article is posted at the top of this page, It's the same one I posted a few days ago. Sorry Didn't mean to make it seem like I had New info, Unless you missed the long chief article I posted above.
    Last edited by BrooklynBorn; 10-11-2011 at 03:10 PM.

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    I just found a new chief article, not sure if this one is posted yet, not the one I was asking about yesterday.


    Brooklyn Federal Judge Nicholas Garaufis slammed Mayor Bloomberg and the Fire Department for failing to deal with decades of discrimination, and ordered more oversight in the hiring process for Firefighter jobs.
    Judge Garaufis issued a Draft Remedial Order Oct. 5, calling the city to account for “nearly 40 years of discrimination” that he said has gone unaddressed. He wrote that his review of the evidence gave him little hope that the Mayor or his senior leadership “has any intention of stepping up to the task of ending discrimination at the FDNY.”
    Mayor Returns Fire
    Mr. Bloomberg was just as dismissive in response, telling reporters, “The judge was not elected to run the city, and you can rest assured that we’ll be in court for a long time” appealing his ruling.
    He said that both his Fire Commissioners, Nicholas Scoppetta and current FDNY head Salvatore Cassano, have “worked tirelessly on outreach to all of the city’s communities.” The success of those efforts, he said, could be seen in the fact that close to 30,000 minority applicants filed for the upcoming Firefighter exam, “shattering any previous record for minority applicants.”
    In the order, the Judge called for clear guidelines and record-keeping for the Firefighter candidate review process, a strengthening of the department’s Equal Employment Opportunity office, and a monitor to oversee progress in recruitment and hiring into the future.
    The ruling followed a court memorandum issued the week before, in which Judge Garaufis laid out the reasoning behind his demands in the case, which began in 2002, when a complaint from the Vulcan Society, a fraternal order of black firefighters, led to an investigation by the U.S. Justice Department. The DOJ then brought a hiring discrimination suit against the FDNY in 2007, which the Vulcans later joined. Judge Garaufis previously ruled that the 1999, 2002 and 2007 exams all had a disparate impact on minority candidates.
    ‘Better Isn’t Enough’
    In the memo, the judge praised increased attempts at minority outreach for Exam 2000, scheduled to be held in January after being developed with test experts from both sides of the case, but stated he was concerned that any gains might be short-lived, and that shortfalls further in the process would create more hurdles for minority candidates. He criticized the Fire Department for refusing to set measurable recruitment goals, saying, “While the FDNY is certainly doing ‘better,’ better does not say anything about whether the FDNY is doing ‘enough.’’’
    In terms of recruitment, Judge Garaufis wrote that evidence of racism within the ranks that was presented by plaintiffs was “troubling,” but he considered it “too anecdotal for the court to conclude that there is a broadly negative perception of the FDNY in the black community that would meaningfully deter black applicants from applying to become firefighters.”
    He faulted many elements of the FDNY’s hiring, from its years-long application process (much longer than that of other metropolitan fire departments) to the procedures of the Personnel Review Board. Mr. Garaufis determined that the roughly 30 percent of persons who made the hiring list but never showed up when called for jobs not only had a disparate impact on black candidates, but also was inconsistent with the city’s position on merit-based hiring, since plenty of well-qualified candidates near the top of the list would be passed over simply because they couldn’t be contacted. He said that candidates who have no friend or family connections in the department would be less likely to be reached after a long period of time passed, and minorities generally have fewer connections in the 89-percent-white firefighter ranks. Overall, black firefighter candidates were approximately 40 percent more likely to not report when called than white candidates.
    Help From Above
    The power of department connections didn’t end there, according to the Judge: “Several FDNY officials testified that Firefighters and fire officers remain actively involved in monitoring the progress of Firefighter candidates who are their friends or family members, even going so far as to attempt to intervene in the Firefighter hiring process on their behalf.” Several PRB officials testified to receiving calls from FDNY members on behalf of candidates under review, many with arrests on charges involving drunken driving or domestic violence.
    He also criticized a lack of guidelines and record-keeping for the review process, including the use of rap sheets that show arrests but not whether someone was convicted of a crime. This means that the PRB could choose not to hire a candidate based on charges that the candidate was later cleared of. “Black Firefighter candidates are significantly more likely to have been arrested in New York City than white Firefighter candidates,” the judge said. “Thus it is more likely than not that black Firefighter candidates will be disproportionately subjected to and disadvantaged by the FDNY’s improper use of arrest information.”
    Calls EEO Office Ineffectual
    Judge Garaufis also criticized how the FDNY’s EEO office was run with too few personnel to manage the backlog of discrimination complaints. Calling the EEO office “little more than a bureaucratic Potemkin village” offering a patina of equal-employment oversight, he characterized it as “hobbled by a chronic lack of resources and policies and practices that prevent it from effectively carrying out its assigned role.”
    However, he credited Assistant Commissioner Lyndelle Phillips’s efforts for significantly reducing the backlog of discrimination complaints, despite the staff shortage. “Commissioner Cassano’s suggestion that Assistant Commissioner Phillips bears responsibility for the FDNY EEO Office’s complaint-investigation backlog is extraordinary and misplaced,” the Judge said in his decision. “Even more extraordinary, however, is Cassano’s attempt to claim credit for reducing that backlog.”
    Fire Department officials declined comment on his findings.
    Judge Garaufis also faulted the FDNY for failing to comply with citywide EEO policy that requires it to assess its recruitment and hiring procedures for an adverse impact, saying that “neither the EEO Office nor any other unit within the FDNY analyzes the decisions made by the PRB to determine whether the PRB has been consistent in its decision-making.”
    Submitting Monitor Candidates
    The paperwork shortages the Judge considered egregious involved the Candidate Investigation Division Director’s selection of candidates for the PRB, the recommendations made to the PRB by FDNY employees on behalf of certain candidates, and PRB decisions made about candidates, including reasons for rejection. The judge said that unless these policies are changed, the FDNY can’t prove that it’s complying with Federal, state and city EEO rules and regulations.
    Though the order doesn’t impose hiring quotas, and criticizes the city’s “misleading and inflammatory statements” about the court endorsing such quotas, it does compel the city to allow a monitor to oversee “court-guided institutional reform” for better equal-employment-opportunity compliance, and a more even playing field for hiring policies and practices. Both sides have until Oct. 19 to draft a list of monitor candidates for the court.
    The judge also made the point that the plaintiff’s proposed remedies were not the only possibility, or even the most-preferable ones. But his order directs city officials “to comprehensively re-assess its policies and practices, to analyze the evidence showing the effect of those policies and practices, and to rationally consider how they can be changed to achieve a Firefighter hiring process that is—in actual practice and effect—fair and open to all.”
    Emphasizes Recruitment
    It also continues supervision over the development and administration of the FDNY exams, and leaves management and supervision of the next firefighter exam to the discretion of court-appointed Special Master Mary Jo White, a former U.S. Attorney. The judge called a formal remedial recruitment program “absolutely essential” to bringing in more minorities, which would include an independent review of ongoing recruitment efforts and the setting of measurable goals to judge those efforts.
    The court will retain jurisdiction over the remedial phase of the case for 10 years or the next two rounds of Firefighter exams. At that point, there will be a bench trial to determine if the city’s efforts have been successful, and the court will either relinquish control or make further judgments on the issue.
    “This litigation could have turned out much differently,” the order stated. “Had the City’s leadership shown the least bit of concern for the effect of the court’s liability rulings, had the City demonstrated by word and deed an intention to use this litigation as an opportunity to reconsider and reevaluate hiring practices and procedures that have illegally excluded black and Hispanic firefighter candidates for nearly 40 years, this would be a much different order.”
    Damages, priority hiring and other issues still remain for plaintiffs who took the 1999 and 2002 exams. A special master may be put in charge of considering individuals for this part of the suit. Meanwhile, applicants who took the 2007 exam were able to register for the new test in January. The City Council passed a special law allowing this group of candidates to apply for the exam up to age 35, though the cut-off age is usually 29.
    The city saw a record number of more than 61,000 candidates apply for the new exam, including about 50 percent minority applicants. The FDNY is suffering a staffing shortage of 400 Firefighters, due, in part, to a hiring freeze ordered by Judge Garaufis last year when the Bloomberg administration refused to agree to a set of interim hiring guidelines for candidates from the 2007 exam that the Mayor said amounted to quotas. The shortage would actually be 700 if the FDNY hadn’t discounted the use of a fifth Firefighter on 60 engine companies in February, a reduction the Uniformed Firefighters Association is challenging.
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    Last edited by BrooklynBorn; 10-11-2011 at 11:18 PM.

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    Posted: Friday, October 7, 2011 5:00 pm | Updated: 4:26 pm, Fri Oct 7, 2011.
    RICHARD STEIER | 0 comments
    U.S. District Judge Nicholas Garaufis showed something less than judicial temperament in his order last week lambasting the Bloomberg administration and the Fire Department for allegedly perpetuating discrimination against minority candidates for Firefighter, while demanding that a monitor be appointed to oversee the hiring process for at least the next decade.
    When he ruled four years ago that exams given in 1999 and 2002 were discriminatory and not sufficiently job-related, the Judge was on sound legal footing, regardless of whether you fully agreed with his conclusions. We believe, however, that his disallowing use of an exam held in 2007 that produced a significant contingent of minority candidates who scored high enough to expect to be hired, citing the issue of disparate impact, was a mistake grounded in a dubious theory.
    Government’s obligation is to present fair tests that offer equal opportunity, but it cannot guarantee equal results. While the Fire Department’s recruiting effort for the upcoming Firefighter test went well beyond what was done prior to that 2007 test, even former FDNY Vulcan Society President Paul Washington—whose organization brought the case on which Judge Garaufis ruled—has acknowledged the effort four years ago was a vast improvement over previous ones.
    The Vulcans had issues with the list that resulted because even though the percentage of minority candidates who scored high on the 2007 exam was nearly equal to the percentage who had taken it, black candidates after the initial class would not have been hired in proportionate numbers until late in the process. It was the Vulcans’ right to push that issue in litigation. Judge Garaufis, however, as the objective arbiter in the case should have given weight to whether that test represented a real breakthrough in terms of minority achievement on the exam that could be built upon by using and improving on what had worked.
    He chose not to do so, instead halting hiring from that list after an initial class was appointed three years ago.
    That happened to be the first Firefighter test in which the entire process starting with recruitment and exam design was under the control of the Bloomberg administration (the 2002 test was administered shortly after Michael Bloomberg took office). Yet his order last week displayed a bitingly hostile tone toward the administration that seems to be motivated more by the Mayor’s objections to some of his previous characterizations and proposed remedies than by the city’s actions.
    Judge Garaufis’s determination to reduce a complex situation to easy denunciations can be seen in his statement that the lack of progress of blacks in particular in the Firefighter ranks “is a shameful blight on the records of the six mayors of this City who failed to take responsibility for doing what was necessary to end it.” Included in that group is David Dinkins, the city’s first black Mayor, who was served for much of his tenure by a Latino Fire Commissioner, Carlos Rivera. Does the Judge really imagine that they weren’t trying to better integrate the department?
    He said he credited city officials for the improved recruitment effort this time, but seems convinced that it was only the threat of his intervention that prompted greater attention on their part. Among his complaints are that black candidates who have made past lists have been disqualified at higher rates than whites for failing to show up for appointment when called. He surmised that the reason was that those candidates may have moved after passing the test, and found the city made insufficient attempts to locate them. But isn’t it equally possible that those candidates didn’t contact city officials with a change of address or new phone number because they had taken other jobs and were no longer interested in being Firefighters? And shouldn’t they have made it a point, if they still were interested, to be sure their new information was provided?
    The Vulcans are right that the Firefighter Cadet program should have been maintained even through budgetary tough times as a proven groomer of minority Firefighter candidates. But in other respects, the city has tried hard over the past decade to improve minority representation in the FDNY, and has had some success regarding Latinos, who now make up 8 percent of firefighters of all ranks.
    The Mayor renewed his vow to appeal the Judge’s ruling; as we’ve noted previously, there is one precedent involving an FDNY case 25 years ago that suggests the city will succeed in getting portions of his decision overturned. But that litigation threatens to further delay hiring in a department that is already working 400 Firefighters short, and the acrimony that the Judge himself has contributed has made it harder to reach a workable solution.
    Though some veteran firefighters still deny it, there are enough credible anecdotal instances of virulent racism shown by white members of the department—and tolerated if not condoned by many of their colleagues—as recently as the 1990s to make clear the FDNY had a serious past problem. Former Fire Commissioner Tom Von Essen’s testimony in a 2003 case that the department had not responded sufficiently to racist behavior that should have cost some firefighters their jobs was an indictment of the department’s hierarchy during that era. But it is important that the scales be balanced carefully in the future in making it clear that there will be zero tolerance for repeats of such behavior but ensuring that merit rather than skin color is the primary determinant of who is hired and who advances through the ranks.



    Posted: Friday, October 7, 2011 5:00 pm | Updated: 1:30 pm, Fri Oct 7, 2011.
    PALMER DOYLE | 1 comment
    To the Editor:
    “If it aint broke, don’t fix it.”
    I choose today to write regarding the assassination of the FDNY. As a New York City Firefighter, you are forever part of a brotherhood and family. To watch the Vulcans, a disgruntled fraternal organization, and an inept Federal judge try to dismantle such a great occupation borders on the criminal.
    The main argument being made is that the FDNY is too white and the entrance exam is biased. Judge Nicholas Garaufis made a ruling in August 2010 to halt any hiring from the current candidate list, while deciding on remedies for his finding that the 1999 and 2002 tests were prejudicial to minority applicants. They are also attempting to make the next exam more minority-friendly.
    The sad fact is that in halting the current list, he has eliminated a class which would have included a large number of minorities. Judge Garaufis has been conducting a series of one-way hearings regarding his rulings. Numerous unsubstantiated testimonies have libeled the FDNY as the equivalent of a racist organization.
    As a firefighter who has worked in the same firehouse with numerous minority brothers, I can honestly attest to the fact that never, ever have I witnessed any inappropriate behavior toward any minority firefighter. Although there are a vast number of minority firefighters who would agree with me, they are not being interviewed. Such interviews don’t make news, and they don’t sell newspapers.
    For years, the budget for minority recruitment has grown dramatically. Now the final idea is to just basically hand the job out on a silver platter. Shouldn’t the highest-scoring candidate, whether black or white, man or woman, get the position? Why should a candidate who scores an 80 be on the same level as one who scores 100? Being a good firefighter takes a lot more than brawn.
    There are many situations where your decisions make the difference between life and death. A quick decision can save numerous lives. Who do you want making those choices? I know I want the most-qualified person making those decisions.
    Judge Garaufis, anyone can help you put your robe on, call your next case, get a new tie for one of your plaintiffs, even bandage your next paper cut. But not everyone can crawl down a hot, smoky hallway, pulling a charged hose line with over 150 pounds of pressure and wearing over 75 pounds of protective equipment.
    How can a judge who has never done a day of hard work in his life make a ruling dealing with such a tough, dirty profession? An occupation in which a firefighter doesn’t care about the race or gender of his company members, but only if they can hold their own when the going gets tough.
    President Bill Clinton handed you your judgeship as a thank-you for your mother’s hard-working fundraising. I think it’s time to rethink your position or retire. Maybe they will let you get your old job as Counsel to the Queens Borough President’s Office, where you worked for Claire Shulman.
    The damage you are doing to the New York City Fire Department, the greatest fire department in the world, is both disgraceful and unforgivable.
    PALMER DOYLE, FDNY (retired)
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    Last edited by BrooklynBorn; 10-11-2011 at 02:58 PM.

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    Default residency requirements

    so i know its been brought up here a few times and i just want to know what you guys think cuz i would hate to be removed from the list for not having the right residency requirements so any opinions you could give would be valued. i have

    1-checking account statements from june 15,2010 until present
    2- a notorized room lease agreement from marck 2010- march 2011(utilities incl)
    3-a notorized room lease agreement from march2011-march 2012(utilities incl)
    4- a letter from my accountant saying i was a full time student for tax year 2010 on the post 9-11 gi bill and had no income to report other than my monthly VA allowance
    5-a letter from the school registrar stating iam a full time student since august 2010 with my home of record being brooklyn

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    Quote Originally Posted by myles8683 View Post
    so i know its been brought up here a few times and i just want to know what you guys think cuz i would hate to be removed from the list for not having the right residency requirements so any opinions you could give would be valued. i have

    1-checking account statements from june 15,2010 until present
    2- a notorized room lease agreement from marck 2010- march 2011(utilities incl)
    3-a notorized room lease agreement from march2011-march 2012(utilities incl)
    4- a letter from my accountant saying i was a full time student for tax year 2010 on the post 9-11 gi bill and had no income to report other than my monthly VA allowance
    5-a letter from the school registrar stating iam a full time student since august 2010 with my home of record being brooklyn
    yeah i'm definitely fearful of not getting the credits as well...

    i think as long as everything is notarized you're good to go...a couple of questions regarding this topic...

    1) it states that telephone records dating back to last july are valid; does that include cell phone records or just LAN line accounts?

    2) i have archived online bank and credit card statements dating back last year...will they give me a problem with statements printed from my online account? it has my address on it so i highly doubt it would be...however these 5 points make or break an applicant's chances of getting hired so i want to cover all bases

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelo_D View Post
    yeah i'm definitely fearful of not getting the credits as well...

    i think as long as everything is notarized you're good to go...a couple of questions regarding this topic...

    1) it states that telephone records dating back to last july are valid; does that include cell phone records or just LAN line accounts?

    2) i have archived online bank and credit card statements dating back last year...will they give me a problem with statements printed from my online account? it has my address on it so i highly doubt it would be...however these 5 points make or break an applicant's chances of getting hired so i want to cover all bases
    first off, residency was july 1 2010 to july 1 2011 so TECHNICALLY you can now move out of the city if you want.

    second, it never hurts to have more than needed, i did last time and it was the difference between getting the residency and not (retirement account, car insurance, state/federal tax forms etc)

    third, i printed online statements last time and they did not have a problem with it.
    I should have cleaned up the chili.....why didn't I clean up the chili!!!!!!

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    Fire Department test doesn't discriminate against any group

    Published: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 1:37 AM

    By Letters to the Editor/Staten Island Advance


    By VINCENT ROMEO
    GREAT KILLS

    In response to: “Judge: Monitor must oversee Fire Department diversity effort.” Advance, Oct. 6:

    I would like to offer a little advice to the non-black and non-Hispanic Fire Department candidates who will be taking the Fire Department entrance exam during January 2012. Band together and hire a reputable law firm and counter-sue the Vulcan Society and Judge Garaufis.

    The Fire Department test has always been a fair test. It’s open to everyone and if you study hard and work out physically and score well, you’ll get the job.

    You also have to pass a medical exam and an investigation.

    New York City is made up of a great many ethnic and racial groups, but only two go to court and try to gain entry to the Fire Department without competing honestly. Firefighting is a dangerous job and the requirements should not be lowered.

    Here’s the secret to becoming a firefighter: Stay in school and do your homework. Don’t take drugs. Don’t commit felonies. Study and train for the test. Show up for the test and do your best. If you make it, God bless you and keep you safe. If you don’t, try again and harder.

    [The writer was a New York City firefighter for 31 years and retired as the captain of Engine Co. 28 on the Lower East Side of Manhattan.]

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    Quote Originally Posted by SleepyHollow View Post
    first off, residency was july 1 2010 to july 1 2011 so TECHNICALLY you can now move out of the city if you want.

    second, it never hurts to have more than needed, i did last time and it was the difference between getting the residency and not (retirement account, car insurance, state/federal tax forms etc)

    third, i printed online statements last time and they did not have a problem with it.
    reguarding residency i still dont know why they did it like that. on one hand hand it makes city residency much harder to fake but on the other people can move out of the city now and still get the points, when if i remember correctly the second big issue after faking residency was that people who worked for the fdny didnt live in nyc or boros and were therefore putting the money they earned into the econmy in say westchester or long island

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    IMO they were trying to screw people who would move here for the credit. They chose that method not because it made more sense, but just because it would be too late to put in effort to get residency. They know that too many white kids want this job and would move to get it.

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    haha... well put.
    -Firefighting is a lifestyle NOT a career-

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    Quote Originally Posted by myles8683 View Post
    reguarding residency i still dont know why they did it like that. on one hand hand it makes city residency much harder to fake but on the other people can move out of the city now and still get the points, when if i remember correctly the second big issue after faking residency was that people who worked for the fdny didnt live in nyc or boros and were therefore putting the money they earned into the econmy in say westchester or long island
    That BOLDED part is a new one I've heard that I don't think is true nor is a valuable argument when it comes to residency restrictions. By the way unlike other Civil Service tests that NYS or the City offers in which residency is required before the tests the FDNY is upon appointment. So this 61,000 number isn't just us New Yorkers its all Americans.

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    Question about changing my address. I recently moved and I need to change my address. I saw a couple of different steps I have to take. I called up DCAS and they faxed me over a change of address form but it looks like it may be for when a list is already established. It's hard to make out though because the fax came over incredibly blurry. I also read from another site that I simply write a letter to DCAS with my name, SSN #, and the old and new address. Can anyone confirm for me which is the correct step. And also after I send the change is their anyway for me to confirm if they have the correct address ?

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    U.S. District Judge Nicholas Garaufis showed something less than judicial temperament in his order last week lambasting the Bloomberg administration and the Fire Department for allegedly perpetuating discrimination against minority candidates for Firefighter, while demanding that a monitor be appointed to oversee the hiring process for at least the next decade.
    When he ruled four years ago that exams given in 1999 and 2002 were discriminatory and not sufficiently job-related, the Judge was on sound legal footing, regardless of whether you fully agreed with his conclusions. We believe, however, that his disallowing use of an exam held in 2007 that produced a significant contingent of minority candidates who scored high enough to expect to be hired, citing the issue of disparate impact, was a mistake grounded in a dubious theory.
    Government’s obligation is to present fair tests that offer equal opportunity, but it cannot guarantee equal results. While the Fire Department’s recruiting effort for the upcoming Firefighter test went well beyond what was done prior to that 2007 test, even former FDNY Vulcan Society President Paul Washington—whose organization brought the case on which Judge Garaufis ruled—has acknowledged the effort four years ago was a vast improvement over previous ones.
    The Vulcans had issues with the list that resulted because even though the percentage of minority candidates who scored high on the 2007 exam was nearly equal to the percentage who had taken it, black candidates after the initial class would not have been hired in proportionate numbers until late in the process. It was the Vulcans’ right to push that issue in litigation. Judge Garaufis, however, as the objective arbiter in the case should have given weight to whether that test represented a real breakthrough in terms of minority achievement on the exam that could be built upon by using and improving on what had worked.
    He chose not to do so, instead halting hiring from that list after an initial class was appointed three years ago.
    That happened to be the first Firefighter test in which the entire process starting with recruitment and exam design was under the control of the Bloomberg administration (the 2002 test was administered shortly after Michael Bloomberg took office). Yet his order last week displayed a bitingly hostile tone toward the administration that seems to be motivated more by the Mayor’s objections to some of his previous characterizations and proposed remedies than by the city’s actions.
    Judge Garaufis’s determination to reduce a complex situation to easy denunciations can be seen in his statement that the lack of progress of blacks in particular in the Firefighter ranks “is a shameful blight on the records of the six mayors of this City who failed to take responsibility for doing what was necessary to end it.” Included in that group is David Dinkins, the city’s first black Mayor, who was served for much of his tenure by a Latino Fire Commissioner, Carlos Rivera. Does the Judge really imagine that they weren’t trying to better integrate the department?
    He said he credited city officials for the improved recruitment effort this time, but seems convinced that it was only the threat of his intervention that prompted greater attention on their part. Among his complaints are that black candidates who have made past lists have been disqualified at higher rates than whites for failing to show up for appointment when called. He surmised that the reason was that those candidates may have moved after passing the test, and found the city made insufficient attempts to locate them. But isn’t it equally possible that those candidates didn’t contact city officials with a change of address or new phone number because they had taken other jobs and were no longer interested in being Firefighters? And shouldn’t they have made it a point, if they still were interested, to be sure their new information was provided?
    The Vulcans are right that the Firefighter Cadet program should have been maintained even through budgetary tough times as a proven groomer of minority Firefighter candidates. But in other respects, the city has tried hard over the past decade to improve minority representation in the FDNY, and has had some success regarding Latinos, who now make up 8 percent of firefighters of all ranks.
    The Mayor renewed his vow to appeal the Judge’s ruling; as we’ve noted previously, there is one precedent involving an FDNY case 25 years ago that suggests the city will succeed in getting portions of his decision overturned. But that litigation threatens to further delay hiring in a department that is already working 400 Firefighters short, and the acrimony that the Judge himself has contributed has made it harder to reach a workable solution.
    Though some veteran firefighters still deny it, there are enough credible anecdotal instances of virulent racism shown by white members of the department—and tolerated if not condoned by many of their colleagues—as recently as the 1990s to make clear the FDNY had a serious past problem. Former Fire Commissioner Tom Von Essen’s testimony in a 2003 case that the department had not responded sufficiently to racist behavior that should have cost some firefighters their jobs was an indictment of the department’s hierarchy during that era. But it is important that the scales be balanced carefully in the future in making it clear that there will be zero tolerance for repeats of such behavior but ensuring that merit rather than skin color is the primary determinant of who is hired and who advances through the ranks.
    Last edited by BrooklynBorn; 10-22-2011 at 04:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynBorn View Post
    The Mayor renewed his vow to appeal the Judge’s ruling; as we’ve noted previously, there is one precedent involving an FDNY case 25 years ago that suggests the city will succeed in getting portions of his decision overturned. But that litigation threatens to further delay hiring in a department that is already working 400 Firefighters short, and the acrimony that the Judge himself has contributed has made it harder to reach a workable solution.
    Though some veteran firefighters still deny it, there are enough credible anecdotal instances of virulent racism shown by white members of the department—and tolerated if not condoned by many of their colleagues—as recently as the 1990s to make clear the FDNY had a serious past problem. Former Fire Commissioner Tom Von Essen’s testimony in a 2003 case that the department had not responded sufficiently to racist behavior that should have cost some firefighters their jobs was an indictment of the department’s hierarchy during that era. But it is important that the scales be balanced carefully in the future in making it clear that there will be zero tolerance for repeats of such behavior but ensuring that merit rather than skin color is the primary determinant of who is hired and who advances through the ranks.
    I'll admit it, that should read 700. It was great FDNY's guys made sacrafices and went with four man companies but if the union or even the evidence that burns are up is the clue, 700 should be hired and 4 man companies done away with.

    By the way, I understand the 5th man is a FDNY thing compared to the rest of the country, however under the circumstances New York is one of three cities in the world that I needs this rule.

    On the other side I think this is a true and in someways fair point. Racism in a lot of ways is thrown under the rug and in some cases is viewed as not racist. But more black firefighters won't solve the issue, more punishment for racists will though.

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