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Thread: FDNY Exam 2000

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    DONE! Interesting, and confusing! However, if you really want to understand, skip the media stories and read the order. Much of the ruling stands, but targeted and intentional discrimination was rejected and the injunction modified. I.E., no outside EEO personnel and the monitor will only oversee for 5 years or until the city petitions for reduced time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by FDsouthbxNY View Post
    DONE! Interesting, and confusing! However, if you really want to understand, skip the media stories and read the order. Much of the ruling stands, but targeted and intentional discrimination was rejected and the injunction modified. I.E., no outside EEO personnel and the monitor will only oversee for 5 years or until the city petitions for reduced time.
    So in your opinion do you think this new test could be thrown Out or what can you make of all of this?
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    from Sullivan and Gallshaws face book page

    In a few minutes the full 60 page decision will be up on the S&G website.

    For those of you asking and trying to understand what parts of the case went up on appeal and what parts of the injunctions remain, please read this carefully...

    In a nutshell, the FDNY was facing Disparate Impact (Blacks & Hispanics did not pass the tests in sufficient numbers) and Disparate Treatment claims (Intentional discrimination by the FDNY towards blacks & Hispanics in the recruitment, testing, and job treatment/atmosphere).

    The City Law Department only appealed the Disparate Treatment (Intentional Discrimination) ruling. Judge Garafuis ruled on that part of the case without the benefit of a trial. The Appeals Court held today that Judge Garafuis’s decision that the FDNY intentionally discriminated should be vacated and sent back for a trial before a new judge. The reason for the assignment of a new judge is because Judge Garafuis had stated in his ruling that the City’s evidence was “incredible” and thus, they determined he could no longer be impartial on this aspect of the case.

    Additionally, the appellate court has modified the injunction that the FDNY has been forced to operate under. Namely, the FDNY need not hire an outside Special Consultant for EEO and recruitment issues and the monitoring that remains shall cease in 2017 as opposed to 2022.

    The current test list remains in effect, the mandatory hires and back-pay were remedies that stemmed from the disparate impact finding that the City chose not to appeal and thus, remain in effect.

    Sullivan & Galleshaw, LLP and Merit Matters remain committed to ensuring the safety of all firefighters, residents and visitors of NYC and that all people are treated fairly and equally and that no one receives special or preferential treatment.
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    As per the Merit Matters FB page posted by S&G - "In a few minutes the full 60 page decision will be up on the S&G website.

    For those of you asking and trying to understand what parts of the case went up on appeal and what parts of the injunctions remain, please read this carefully...

    In a nutshell, the FDNY was facing Disparate Impact (Blacks & Hispanics did not pass the tests in sufficient numbers) and Disparate Treatment claims (Intentional discrimination by the FDNY towards blacks & Hispanics in the recruitment, testing, and job treatment/atmosphere).
    ...
    The City Law Department only appealed the Disparate Treatment (Intentional Discrimination) ruling. Judge Garafuis ruled on that part of the case without the benefit of a trial. The Appeals Court held today that Judge Garafuis’s decision that the FDNY intentionally discriminated should be vacated and sent back for a trial before a new judge. The reason for the assignment of a new judge is because Judge Garafuis had stated in his ruling that the City’s evidence was “incredible” and thus, they determined he could no longer be impartial on this aspect of the case.

    Additionally, the appellate court has modified the injunction that the FDNY has been forced to operate under. Namely, the FDNY need not hire an outside Special Consultant for EEO and recruitment issues and the monitoring that remains shall cease in 2017 as opposed to 2022.

    The current test list remains in effect, the mandatory hires and back-pay were remedies that stemmed from the disparate impact finding that the City chose not to appeal and thus, remain in effect.

    Sullivan & Galleshaw, LLP and Merit Matters remain committed to ensuring the safety of all firefighters, residents and visitors of NYC and that all people are treated fairly and equally and that no one receives special or preferential treatment."

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    Quote Originally Posted by River6019 View Post
    Tell me about it, 5 years in friggin limbo. Thanks a lot Garaufis for screwing thousands over for nothing. I hope this effects his career as much as i assume it will. He spent a lot of energy making this case as publicized as possible.
    I wonder what the private opinion of him is amongst his peers. I really hope this next judge rules in our favor. I also wonder if Sullivan and Galleshaw will have more a role in the new trial?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vekdoggs75 View Post
    The current test list remains in effect, the mandatory hires and back-pay were remedies that stemmed from the disparate impact finding that the City chose not to appeal and thus, remain in effect.
    "
    The City did not appeal the "Disparate Impact" therefore PHs will still be hired and get back pay.

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    My friend just told me the other day he collared a felon who said he was on the FD list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyD0pe View Post
    The City did not appeal the "Disparate Impact" therefore PHs will still be hired and get back pay.
    Why would the city appeal that anyways??? It's only taxpayers' money for Christ's sake!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyD0pe View Post
    The City did not appeal the "Disparate Impact" therefore PHs will still be hired and get back pay.
    I don't understand why? These guys are taking well qualified people's spots. PH's had their chances years ago why can't thu just move on. I mean if they wanted te job back then, then they would of studied more and not score an 80 or 70 or 0. I scored a 97 an I studied I hope they have a place for me on the next go around since this is turning into a political cross pool once again. I wonder if we will get a call one day as well 15 yrs from now saying that we been discriminated against and that we're intittled to back pay and lost enjoyment from all this bs

    I don't understand how once side of this lawsuit gets overturn and not this lawsuit as a whole. It just makes no sense at all.
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    Honestly it seems like the city only cared about clearing themselves from the stigmata of "intentional" discrimination, hiring 293 unqualified people and hitting the tax payers for 128 million took a back seat to clearing their names. Long term this is a big win for hiring based on merit but short term not much has changed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by River6019 View Post
    Honestly it seems like the city only cared about clearing themselves from the stigmata of "intentional" discrimination, hiring 293 unqualified people and hitting the tax payers for 128 million took a back seat to clearing their names. Long term this is a big win for hiring based on merit but short term not much has changed.
    I knew that was the goal from the very start of this whole bull**** case. To honestly think Bloomberg and the city of NY Law Dept were really battling this case for the good of it was as believable as the Easter Bunny hopping to my doorstep as a kid. I think it's too early to call this is a definitive win since all it really does is allow a new judge to hear the case and who knows what liberal schmuck is waiting to hear it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vekdoggs75 View Post
    I knew that was the goal from the very start of this whole bull**** case. To honestly think Bloomberg and the city of NY Law Dept were really battling this case for the good of it was as believable as the Easter Bunny hopping to my doorstep as a kid. I think it's too early to call this is a definitive win since all it really does is allow a new judge to hear the case and who knows what liberal schmuck is waiting to hear it.
    I actually believed that the city was fighting it for the right reasons. Stupid Me.

    I am still confused about what is actually to be decided in court.
    Last edited by BrooklynBorn; 05-14-2013 at 03:49 PM.
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    Quit your whining and stop and think about it for a minute. The city has to be pragmatic about the battles it picks. It's really incredibly difficult to argue that there hasn't been disparate impact. Just look at the numbers, it doesn't add up in a city so diverse that one agency can be so racially imbalanced. I know there are other agencies with similar imbalances (but not overwhelmingly white male), but the city has to be realistic with what battles are likely to be won, and what battles aren't worth the time or money on. So they let disparate impact slide, since many, many places and things have been shown to have a disparate impact, like the SAT. You fix disparate impact by figuring out how to make the testing process fair and you move on.

    Disparate Treatment is a whole different beast and a much more sinister claim. Disparate treatment says that the city intentionally acted in trying to exclude groups. Part of the problem with this claim is that Garafuis ruled that the city was guilty of this without actually covering it in a trial. This was the strongest card the city had to play, and also the most damning charge (and therefore the one most worth fighting). With Disparate treatment overturned and sent back for a new trial the city has cleared its name for now.

    Is it too bad that PHs and backpay are still in effect? Yes, but since they are tied to disparate impact there's not much you can say or do about that. There's no way 2000 would be thrown out since that was something everyone had a say in and was created by a leading testing agency. Nobody ever questioned whether or not 2000 was an invalid test format.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan Medic View Post
    Quit your whining and stop and think about it for a minute. The city has to be pragmatic about the battles it picks. It's really incredibly difficult to argue that there hasn't been disparate impact. Just look at the numbers, it doesn't add up in a city so diverse that one agency can be so racially imbalanced. I know there are other agencies with similar imbalances (but not overwhelmingly white male), but the city has to be realistic with what battles are likely to be won, and what battles aren't worth the time or money on. So they let disparate impact slide, since many, many places and things have been shown to have a disparate impact, like the SAT. You fix disparate impact by figuring out how to make the testing process fair and you move on.

    Disparate Treatment is a whole different beast and a much more sinister claim. Disparate treatment says that the city intentionally acted in trying to exclude groups. Part of the problem with this claim is that Garafuis ruled that the city was guilty of this without actually covering it in a trial. This was the strongest card the city had to play, and also the most damning charge (and therefore the one most worth fighting). With Disparate treatment overturned and sent back for a new trial the city has cleared its name for now.

    Is it too bad that PHs and backpay are still in effect? Yes, but since they are tied to disparate impact there's not much you can say or do about that. There's no way 2000 would be thrown out since that was something everyone had a say in and was created by a leading testing agency. Nobody ever questioned whether or not 2000 was an invalid test format.

    You don't do this often, but you're out of line here. These guys have every right to complain. Why is the outcome racially disparate? It's not because of the testing process or the exam itself. It also has nothing to do with race. If someone were to be truly fair they'd have to break out the economics of the situation. No one has the balls to look at the rate of poverty, % of single family households or level and quality of education. This might not be someone's fault. Many people end up in disadvantaged situations, but the fix is to better that person, not dumb down standards.

    Why are other jobs more racially diverse? The answer is this, the jobs in question are not as desirable. I'm not suggesting they're bad jobs or useless jobs. Many are hard and demanding with little reward. Still, bottom line is, 40,000+ people didn't line up to take the Corrections test. Competition is higher for this job. There is just something about it that draws people in large numbers from a large area. You want the job? Work harder for it.

    If you're sitting on the hiring bubble, this issue has you close to the center. What if you're the guy who falls 293 people short of the hiring cut off? YOU won't have a lawsuit to file or a racist, politically motivated group to support you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan Medic View Post
    Quit your whining and stop and think about it for a minute. The city has to be pragmatic about the battles it picks. It's really incredibly difficult to argue that there hasn't been disparate impact. Just look at the numbers, it doesn't add up in a city so diverse that one agency can be so racially imbalanced. I know there are other agencies with similar imbalances (but not overwhelmingly white male), but the city has to be realistic with what battles are likely to be won, and what battles aren't worth the time or money on. So they let disparate impact slide, since many, many places and things have been shown to have a disparate impact, like the SAT. You fix disparate impact by figuring out how to make the testing process fair and you move on.

    Disparate Treatment is a whole different beast and a much more sinister claim. Disparate treatment says that the city intentionally acted in trying to exclude groups. Part of the problem with this claim is that Garafuis ruled that the city was guilty of this without actually covering it in a trial. This was the strongest card the city had to play, and also the most damning charge (and therefore the one most worth fighting). With Disparate treatment overturned and sent back for a new trial the city has cleared its name for now.

    Is it too bad that PHs and backpay are still in effect? Yes, but since they are tied to disparate impact there's not much you can say or do about that. There's no way 2000 would be thrown out since that was something everyone had a say in and was created by a leading testing agency. Nobody ever questioned whether or not 2000 was an invalid test format.
    I don't think anyone's whining here. A large number of guys, including myself, got absolutely ****ing shafted in 2008 by this judge and his liberal biased rulings. I think it's incredibly disappointing for the city to say time and time again that they would appeal the judge's decision and then not include the so called "remedies" he put in place. The City refused a quota system in '08 but now they're OK with allowing a bunch of old failures in the backdoor? Cmon bro I understand you're OTJ now, but don't tell me you'd be sitting there with a smile on your face if you were in any of our positions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan Medic View Post
    Quit your whining and stop and think about it for a minute. The city has to be pragmatic about the battles it picks. It's really incredibly difficult to argue that there hasn't been disparate impact. Just look at the numbers, it doesn't add up in a city so diverse that one agency can be so racially imbalanced. I know there are other agencies with similar imbalances (but not overwhelmingly white male), but the city has to be realistic with what battles are likely to be won, and what battles aren't worth the time or money on. So they let disparate impact slide, since many, many places and things have been shown to have a disparate impact, like the SAT. You fix disparate impact by figuring out how to make the testing process fair and you move on.

    Disparate Treatment is a whole different beast and a much more sinister claim. Disparate treatment says that the city intentionally acted in trying to exclude groups. Part of the problem with this claim is that Garafuis ruled that the city was guilty of this without actually covering it in a trial. This was the strongest card the city had to play, and also the most damning charge (and therefore the one most worth fighting). With Disparate treatment overturned and sent back for a new trial the city has cleared its name for now.

    Is it too bad that PHs and backpay are still in effect? Yes, but since they are tied to disparate impact there's not much you can say or do about that. There's no way 2000 would be thrown out since that was something everyone had a say in and was created by a leading testing agency. Nobody ever questioned whether or not 2000 was an invalid test format.
    Relax dude. Everyone here who has been on a competitive list is entitled to whine about this because it is ridiculous that the city would not attempt to appeal the entire ruling. The city did not have to pick a battle here, they could have appealed the entire ruling. Instead they showed that they do not care about merit based hiring, and are happy to diversify the dept under the judges terms. Maybe since you were hired off a non-competitive list it does not fire you up as much, but to the 6109 and 2000 guys who are being skipped, whine away.

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    Oh and don't forget the endless undeserving checks they're about to cut to people. That's a nice cherry on top of this absolutely ****ed up situation.
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    I am trying not to inject my own personal opinion on the matter. I don't agree with the priority hires either, and I also appreciate that in NYC there are a lot more factors at work than just race. Poverty, housing (the fact that everybody knows the project housing system is broken but nobody knows how to fix it), education, etc. etc. are all factors that should be considered in this, but aren't.

    I realize that, but unfortunately since the city didn't try to fight the judgement that lead to PHs and backpay, what can be done? Has Merit Matters talked about trying to fight that? I know it's unfair, but I'm just trying to stress that we should take a step back and appreciate the victory that was won today, instead of just complaining that it's still not enough. They proved what they set out to prove. I'd like to see them go farther, but it does seem like the city has no interest in fighting the rest of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LongCut View Post
    Relax dude. Everyone here who has been on a competitive list is entitled to whine about this because it is ridiculous that the city would not attempt to appeal the entire ruling. The city did not have to pick a battle here, they could have appealed the entire ruling. Instead they showed that they do not care about merit based hiring, and are happy to diversify the dept under the judges terms. Maybe since you were hired off a non-competitive list it does not fire you up as much, but to the 6109 and 2000 guys who are being skipped, whine away.
    Agreed 100%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan Medic View Post
    Quit your whining and stop and think about it for a minute. The city has to be pragmatic about the battles it picks. It's really incredibly difficult to argue that there hasn't been disparate impact. Just look at the numbers, it doesn't add up in a city so diverse that one agency can be so racially imbalanced. I know there are other agencies with similar imbalances (but not overwhelmingly white male), but the city has to be realistic with what battles are likely to be won, and what battles aren't worth the time or money on. So they let disparate impact slide, since many, many places and things have been shown to have a disparate impact, like the SAT. You fix disparate impact by figuring out how to make the testing process fair and you move on.

    Disparate Treatment is a whole different beast and a much more sinister claim. Disparate treatment says that the city intentionally acted in trying to exclude groups. Part of the problem with this claim is that Garafuis ruled that the city was guilty of this without actually covering it in a trial. This was the strongest card the city had to play, and also the most damning charge (and therefore the one most worth fighting). With Disparate treatment overturned and sent back for a new trial the city has cleared its name for now.

    Is it too bad that PHs and backpay are still in effect? Yes, but since they are tied to disparate impact there's not much you can say or do about that. There's no way 2000 would be thrown out since that was something everyone had a say in and was created by a leading testing agency. Nobody ever questioned whether or not 2000 was an invalid test format.
    I think maybe some people including myself thought the city had a good shot at standing up to Title VII disparate impact, since its a controversial law that's antiquated in today's society. The Second circuit court was actually kind of shocked they didn't challenge it last year if I remember the excepts from the court correctly.

    I'm sure you can understand why some of us who did well on the last test feel like the city could've fought a little harder to do the right thing. The way I see it is you're right, the city was being pragmatic. The city wanted certain names cleared, the "intentional" qualifier dropped, and this issue to disappear. Up to 293 spots given away and 128 million dollars were the price they were willing to pay I guess. I feel this issue was indeed worth the time and money even if as you say the city didn't.
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