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Thread: FDNY Exam 2000

  1. #10221
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    River6019 since you seem to be well versed in the actual court system/documents, have they ever come out and said why they were pursuing overturning only part of the verdict and not all of it?


  2. #10222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manhattan Medic View Post
    River6019 since you seem to be well versed in the actual court system/documents, have they ever come out and said why they were pursuing overturning only part of the verdict and not all of it?
    Nope, they didn't even enlighten Sullivan and Galleshaw the law firm representing Merit Matters who are actual intervenors in the case as to why they didn't challenge disparate impact. The second circuit judges actually specifically asked the city's lawyer at the appeal hearing if they were sure they didn't want to challenge it and were shocked they didn't.

    I believe the city actually DID later try to intertwine disparate impact into the appeal but missed the cut off by a few weeks. So maybe they were just incompetent. Wish Sullivan and Galleshaw were allowed to handle this thing from the start.
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  3. #10223
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    Agreed. The basic outcome of this was clearing names. Not much else has been solved by it.
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  4. #10224
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    Disperate impact is ridiculous. How is it that foreigners come here and their children flourish but everyone else can use skin color as an excuse?
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  5. #10225
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDsouthbxNY View Post
    You don't do this often, but you're out of line here. These guys have every right to complain. Why is the outcome racially disparate? It's not because of the testing process or the exam itself. It also has nothing to do with race. If someone were to be truly fair they'd have to break out the economics of the situation. No one has the balls to look at the rate of poverty, % of single family households or level and quality of education. This might not be someone's fault. Many people end up in disadvantaged situations, but the fix is to better that person, not dumb down standards.

    Why are other jobs more racially diverse? The answer is this, the jobs in question are not as desirable. I'm not suggesting they're bad jobs or useless jobs. Many are hard and demanding with little reward. Still, bottom line is, 40,000+ people didn't line up to take the Corrections test. Competition is higher for this job. There is just something about it that draws people in large numbers from a large area. You want the job? Work harder for it.

    If you're sitting on the hiring bubble, this issue has you close to the center. What if you're the guy who falls 293 people short of the hiring cut off? YOU won't have a lawsuit to file or a racist, politically motivated group to support you.
    No, MM is RIGHT, and you're actually wrong, the problem is that you do not know why you're wrong, but that's no fault of your own because the facts are confusing.

    The "outcome" is not racially disparate, you are missing the big picture. The Vulcans and DOJ are arguing that the City's practice of hiring firemen over the past 20 years has had a disparate impact on racial minorities. This ruling does NOT challenge the most recent test, but instead the entire hiring practice and its effects (this is a misconception held by many on this forum) over the past two decades.

    You go on to argue about rate of poverty, single family households, rates of minorities on other city jobs, etc. These factors all have little relevance when the DOJ cited fire departments from other large cities which exhibit an average of 25-50% minority employees and the FDNY has less than 10% minority employees. This is CLEARLY, and unequivocally disparate IMPACT. Also, there can be a finding of disparate impact without discriminatory intent; like you said, some groups of people just seem to not want the job, and that is fine, but they are still disparately impacted.

    MM is right on another front: the disparate treatment claim is a far more sinister beast; it suggests the city treats minority firemen differently once they are HIRED, which opens the City up to a LOT of liability. What kind of liability you ask? Every Black/Hispanic fireman who has had disciplinary action taken against them in the past now has standing to sue if they received a harsher penalty (warranted or not) than any non-Black/non-Hispanic fireman. Furthermore, transfers, denials of appointment to specialized assignments, promotions, terminations, and the like are all subject to scrutiny by courts and could potentially constitute "standing" against the City.
    Last edited by NYPDtoFD; 05-14-2013 at 08:09 PM. Reason: double quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by River6019 View Post
    I think maybe some people including myself thought the city had a good shot at standing up to Title VII disparate impact, since its a controversial law that's antiquated in today's society. The Second circuit court was actually kind of shocked they didn't challenge it last year if I remember the excepts from the court correctly.
    Incorrect, Title VII is alive and well. The Civil Rights Act of 1964, from which Title VII derives, is hardly antiquated and is still valid law from which to allege a violation. The CRA of '64 serves as the "charter" of the Federal EEOC Agency.
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    Are the chances of 0 phs being hired less than zero percent? Also any remote possibility that if phs were still hire could the back pay and seniority be rescinded thus causing those in the running just for the cash to possibly drop out. Any chance of this occurring that is greater than 0 percent would cause me to smile...slightly
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYPDtoFD View Post
    No, MM is RIGHT, and you're actually wrong, the problem is that you do not know why you're wrong, but that's no fault of your own because the facts are confusing.

    The "outcome" is not racially disparate, you are missing the big picture. The Vulcans and DOJ are arguing that the City's practice of hiring firemen over the past 20 years has had a disparate impact on racial minorities. This ruling does NOT challenge the most recent test, but instead the entire hiring practice and its effects (this is a misconception held by many on this forum) over the past two decades.

    You go on to argue about rate of poverty, single family households, rates of minorities on other city jobs, etc. These factors all have little relevance when the DOJ cited fire departments from other large cities which exhibit an average of 25-50% minority employees and the FDNY has less than 10% minority employees. This is CLEARLY, and unequivocally disparate IMPACT. Also, there can be a finding of disparate impact without discriminatory intent; like you said, some groups of people just seem to not want the job, and that is fine, but they are still disparately impacted.

    MM is right on another front: the disparate treatment claim is a far more sinister beast; it suggests the city treats minority firemen differently once they are HIRED, which opens the City up to a LOT of liability. What kind of liability you ask? Every Black/Hispanic fireman who has had disciplinary action taken against them in the past now has standing to sue if they received a harsher penalty (warranted or not) than any non-Black/non-Hispanic fireman. Furthermore, transfers, denials of appointment to specialized assignments, promotions, terminations, and the like are all subject to scrutiny by courts and could potentially constitute "standing" against the City.
    Bringing up other fire depts and comparing them to the FDNY is like apples and oranges when a majority of them have succumb to quotas at some time or another. My whole confusion aka pain my balls is why the city's legal team never included the priority hires and monetary damages into their appeal. To any legal lingo layman, the city basically said "ok we ****ed over those guys a decade ago so here's a job and a fat check."

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankp88 View Post
    Are the chances of 0 phs being hired less than zero percent? Also any remote possibility that if phs were still hire could the back pay and seniority be rescinded thus causing those in the running just for the cash to possibly drop out. Any chance of this occurring that is greater than 0 percent would cause me to smile...slightly
    Every person I've spoken to regarding this news has said these boys and girls are going in.....and they're going in before any of us.

  10. #10230
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYPDtoFD View Post
    Incorrect, Title VII is alive and well. The Civil Rights Act of 1964, from which Title VII derives, is hardly antiquated and is still valid law from which to allege a violation. The CRA of '64 serves as the "charter" of the Federal EEOC Agency.
    He's not incorrect, neither was I in my previous posting. Disparate impact is a theory, one open to much interpretation. It is for this very reason that title 7 should be challenged as often as possible. Title 7 only stands if the employer cannot prove the exam is job related or tests essential skills. It is the opinion of many attorneys that the city did an exceptionally poor job of proving previous exams to be job related. To quote more than one, "they dropped the ball".

    I DO know the facts and I understand them quite well. I have a bachelors degree in constitutional law, so thanks for correcting something that didn't need correcting. The exam results, as viewed by passing rates, are ratially unbalanced, thus the exams (being under the umbrella of hiring practices) had a disparate impact. We all get that. I'm suggesting that the whole clause is a load of crap. This whole suite is a load of crap. Disparate impact is a recipe for quotas in disguise, allowed under the guise of affirmative action. My assertion that race is less important than socio-economic factors is a perfectly valid arguement. What if one of the priority hires was deans list at Yale and just happened to show up hung over on test day because he didn't give a damn. Now he's getting a second shot, but no one looks at his life's story, they just focus on the color of his skin. That's the crux of the problem. All we do is place emphasis on skin color here when it shouldn't matter at all.


    Lastly, yes, we are all in agreement that intentionally disparate treatment is a terribly dangerous label and would have far reaching repercussions were it allowed to stand.

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    anyone taking their psych tomorrow morning?

  12. #10232
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    Quote Originally Posted by dawk34 View Post
    anyone taking their psych tomorrow morning?
    got mine on Saturday. Ready to answer some weird questions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vekdoggs75 View Post
    Every person I've spoken to regarding this news has said these boys and girls are going in.....and they're going in before any of us.
    Part of me wants this to happen because it's going to be a big joke. Let them go in first so we can see the true disparity in their performance from the OP people. There will probably be a few that are normal but the majority will be comical and arrogant and will end up showing how screwed up this Ideology is.
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  14. #10234
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    Although there will probably be a lot of pressure to pass them undeservingly and ignore incompetence.
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    question.

    I got a seat belt ticket this week. Should I tell my investigator or shouldn't I?

  16. #10236
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDNYGUY28 View Post
    question.

    I got a seat belt ticket this week. Should I tell my investigator or shouldn't I?
    I say tell them. not sure that they will find out but its not a big deal and displays honesty anyway.
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  17. #10237
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    BTW I met my goal weight yesterday and beat it by 4 lbs. The secret to dropping weight guys is use a colon cleanse . So now I'm just waiting for the run.
    Last edited by FDNYGUY28; 05-15-2013 at 02:38 PM. Reason: spelling error

  18. #10238
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDNYGUY28 View Post
    BTW I met my goal weight yesterday and beat it by 4 lbs. The secret to dropping weight guys is use a colon cleanse . So now I'm just waiting for the run.
    Nothing closer to godliness than a clean colon.
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  19. #10239
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDNYGUY28 View Post
    BTW I met my goal weight yesterday and beat it by 4 lbs. The secret to dropping weight guys is use a colon cleanse . So now I'm just waiting for the run.
    Haha, gross. Congrats man.
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  20. #10240
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDNYGUY28 View Post
    BTW I met my goal weight yesterday and beat it by 4 lbs. The secret to dropping weight guys is use a colon cleanse . So now I'm just waiting for the run.
    yes to telling your investigator about the ticket & which cleanse did you use?

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