1. #26
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    In philly on a tactical box it`s 2 engines,2 ladders 1 cheif. On full box 4 engines 2 ladders 2 chief rescue or squad company medic unit then depending on the number of companies put in service you get your R.I.T, Dep. cheif and so on

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    Quote Originally Posted by philly10 View Post
    In philly on a tactical box it`s 2 engines,2 ladders 1 cheif. On full box 4 engines 2 ladders 2 chief rescue or squad company medic unit then depending on the number of companies put in service you get your R.I.T, Dep. cheif and so on
    When is a tactical box sent v. a full box?
    Train to fight the fires you fight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    When is a tactical box sent v. a full box?
    depends on the volume of 911 calls or when the first due company or chief get on scene the can upgrade from tactical to full box (called striking out the box)

  4. #29
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    Structure fire, 2 engines, 2 tankers, 2 more tankers automatic aid, and a medic.
    Natural cover fire, 1 engine, 2 brush trucks.

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    At home, we're a primarily rural county that consists of five independent volunteer companies that are overseen by the county's career fire chief. Although we're independent of one another, we operate as one department, providing automatic aid to one another daily, cleared to drive one another's rigs, etc.

    A structural assignment for us gets three engines, three tankers, the rescue company, and an ambulance. Our SOP for structural calls is well defined and practiced:
    • First engine goes to the scene as the attack engine
    • Second engine goes to the scene to draft from a portable pond and supply the attack engine
    • Third engine never goes to the scene, it automatically locates the nearest hydrant (generally a dry hydrant, could be a pressurized hydrant) and establishes a tanker fill site.

    Each station has one engine, one tanker, and one EMS vehicle, plus we have various support vehicles spread throughout the county. Therefore, it's a minimum of three stations responding for a working fire.

    Having the second engine at the the scene does provide redundancy and back-up in case there's an equipment failure, it also provides you with additional personnel.
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    Sounds like your demographics are very similar to ours.
    Box Alarm:
    Hydrant area- 4 Engines, 1 Truck, 1 BLS Transport Unit
    Non-Hydrant area- 4 Engines, 1 Truck, 4 Tankers, 1 BLS Transport Unit.

    We have predesignated running assignments based on order of arrival on scene.

    1st arriving engine, lay a supply line (leave room for Truck if its not there yet) to Side A for fire attack
    2nd arriving engine, pick up supply line, Back up 1st arriving engine with a second line. If non-hydrant, prepare dump tank site when first tanker arrives. First tanker may "nurse" the first arriving engine while dump tanks are being set up, or may drop the dump tank immediately and offload to begin a shuttle. Second arriving engine does the draft from the tanks and supplies via the supply line layed out by first arriving engine.
    3rd arriving engine, RIT
    4th arriving engine, lay a supply line if needed and take Side C.

    Truck company takes Side A.

    If a unit responds "understaffed" (less than 3 personnel) it is automatically supplemented by dispatching the next like unit.

    If it is a working fire, our "Working Fire Task Force" brings another Engine (and Tanker for non-hydrant), another Truck, an ALS resource, and an air unit. These units are assigned duties by the Incident Commander when they arrive on scene.
    Additional alarms mimic the first alarm assignment.
    Last edited by Prydentradition; 07-19-2011 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Add info

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    We don't do "box alarms" around here. Although, I think its a concept worth exploring. Expecting many VFD's to field a first alarm response during a weekday is asking for a lot in most parts of the country (except in Harve's neck of the woods!)
    Which is exactly why we do the "box card" system. It's easier (and more realistic) to get three engines from three separate firehouses or departments, than it is for one department to man and send three pieces. We run on theirs automatically, they run on ours automatically. Works nicely too if someone "scratches" (cannot field the manpower and cannot respond.) They just pick up the phone to dispatch, and tell them "This is xyz, we're not going to make it, send the next due." And all dispatch has to do is que the next due company in the computer and dispatch them.

    Is also nice if command needs something, maybe another engine or truck....All he has to do is ask for the next due. No thinking. Just ask.
    "Loyalty Above all Else. Except Honor."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Which is exactly why we do the "box card" system. It's easier (and more realistic) to get three engines from three separate firehouses or departments, than it is for one department to man and send three pieces. We run on theirs automatically, they run on ours automatically. Works nicely too if someone "scratches" (cannot field the manpower and cannot respond.) They just pick up the phone to dispatch, and tell them "This is xyz, we're not going to make it, send the next due." And all dispatch has to do is que the next due company in the computer and dispatch them.

    Is also nice if command needs something, maybe another engine or truck....All he has to do is ask for the next due. No thinking. Just ask.
    I guess the concern is always about the training, tactics, etc...

    Are these sort of issues standardized?
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

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  9. #34
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    We're a member of MABAS (www.mabas-il.org) and use their standardized box cards. All-volunteer department with all volunteer departments for any mutual aid.


    Initial Response:
    Typically two fully-staffed (5 FFs) engines, possibly third with 3-4 from our sister station
    One tanker if rural
    Brush truck with air cascade trailer if hydranted


    First Alarm:
    Two additional Engines
    Two additional Tankers
    One Truck

    Second Alarm:
    Two additional Engines
    Two additional Tankers
    One additional Truck

    Third Alarm:
    Two additional Engines (One from neighboring large career department)
    Two additional Tankers
    One additional Air Cascade
    One additional Truck (from neighboring large career department)
    One Battalion Chief (from neighboring large career department)


    Typically we're able to field 10-15 of our own guys on the initial page, along with 4-5 from our sister station. If radio traffic seems to indicate that we're going to have a small response, the ranking officer will usually strike the first alarm pretty quickly. Our Chief wanted automatic aid from a neighboring department and vice versa, but our district trustees wouldn't go for it for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FFMedic31 View Post
    Our Chief wanted automatic aid from a neighboring department and vice versa, but our district trustees wouldn't go for it for some reason.
    Sounds like a stupid thing to hold back on... god forbid they are wrong.
    I am now a past chief and the views, opinions, and comments are mine and mine alone. I do not speak for any department or in any official capacity. Although, they would be smart to listen to me.

    "The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on the list."

    "When tempted to fight fire with fire, remember that the Fire Department usually uses water."

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefKN View Post
    Sounds like a stupid thing to hold back on... god forbid they are wrong.
    ^^^^ Bingo
    Bring enough hose.

  12. #37
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    For hydrant supply areas we send the following to a "reported" structure fire: 3 engines, 1 truck (2nd asked for if it is an apartment/hotel/etc), 2 Bat Chiefs, 1 rescue, 1 Med unit. If it is a worker, a cascade rescue and second rescue is dispatched.

    For non-hydrant area's, we send the above, as well as 2 tankers on a "reported" structure fire. Depending on location, and it is a worker, MA tankers "may" be dispatched. Discretion of the OIC.

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    "Firemens gets antsies. Theys wants to goes to fires. Sometimeses they haves to waits."

  13. #38
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    My fire district is located in a urban area with heavy commercial, residential, and farm land. We are career and have automatic mutual aid. The bad part in the following list is that we are one of the only area in our side of the county that has farm land there for the closetest tanker is 35 miles away the rest are further.

    ---1st alarm residential 4 engines, 1 ladder and 1 als unit. 12-18 personnel on scene
    ---1st alarm commercial 4 engines, 2 ladders and 1 als unit. 16-20 personnel on scene
    ---Each additional alarm get 4 more companies including 1 ladder.
    ---Arrivial on scene of working fire additionial als unit is requested.
    ---We have B/C'sassigned to an engine with four men but stay out and take command of incident.
    ---Any highway incident get 2 trucks if mvc or ems add als unit
    ---Vehicle rescue gets1 ladder with rescue equipment, 1 rescue pumper and als unit.
    ---Fire alarms get 1 truck and 1 engine
    ---Misc stills depending on call recieved.
    ---Life threats 1 company and als unit.

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    We're also rural and tanker. In fact 100% tanker at present including on our small town.

    All vehicles will roll to the scene: pumper, CAFS Pumper/tanker, tanker, and a type 5 wildland/EMS truck. A confirmed structure fire will automatic dispatch a mutual aid pumper to draft/tanker fill at our fire reservoir which is located at the edge of town, a tanker, and manpower. If needed, can go get our mobile cascade trailer.

    Have been working on getting a MABAS box card system implemented (finding considerable resistance from other FD and dispatch) where each additional pumper will also call for 3x additional tankers.

    Will soon have an LDH hose wagon so will be able to lay 5000ft 6" (AFG project) for in town fires. Or rural for fires that are within range of our dry hydrants, ponds, or the stream that runs lengthwise thru the district.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volfireman034 View Post
    I'm trying to write and update SOG's for four fire departments and I'm looking to see how many engines companies, truck companies, tankers and rescues to be in the first assignment. All areas are rural districts, mostly one and two story houses under 2500 sq. ft. 90% of water supply is tanker shuttle. Two of the fire departments are very progressive and believe in having at least four apparatus plus tankers. The other two really aren’t big on having more than just one engine because they don’t want to have extras in the way and don’t see a need for more than two 1 Ĺ hoses. But there open to change if I can show them how most other departments do it and the reason they do. So any suggestions and background would also help.







    Gwinnett County Fire Run Assignments

    Gwinnett County Fire and Emergency Services provides fire protection and emergency medical services for a population of about 800,000 people with a force of 845 superbly trained men and women who are proactive and citizen-oriented. Responding to more than 62,000 calls for help annually, GCFS operates 30 strategically placed fire stations that include 30 engine companies, 10 ladder trucks, and 23 advanced life-support medical units.

    In addition to providing basic fire and emergency services, trained teams are in place for technical rescue, hazardous materials, and swift-water rescue situations. The department’s own Fire Academy provides training far beyond state requirements and all firefighters receive further emergency medical care throughout their career at GCFES. All emergency response vehicles are staffed with EMTs and paramedics and carry essential medical equipment for advanced life support.


    3=fire alarm 33=fire

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    3A Alarm at an apartment 1 Engine and 1 Truck
    3B Alarm at a business 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    3CO Carbon monoxide alarm 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    3H Alarm at a hospital 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 1 Battalion Chief
    3M Medical alarm 1 Medic or 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    3R Alarm at a residence 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    3S Alarm at a school 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 1 Battalion Chief
    5 Bomb threat 1 Engine or 1 Truck 1 Battalion Chief
    6 Explosive located 1 Engine or 1 Truck 1 Battalion Chief
    7 Explosion 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    19A Smoke odor in an apartment 1 Engine and 1 Truck
    19B Smoke odor in a business 1 Engine and 1 Truck
    19H Smoke odor in a hospital 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 1 Battalion Chief
    19R Smoke odor in a residence 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    19S Smoke odor in a school 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 1 Battalion Chief
    31 Wires down 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    33A Apartment fire 3 Engines, 2 Trucks, 1 Squad, 1 Medic, 1 Battalion Chief, 1 MS, Division 1, and an additional Engine or Truck
    33B Business fire 3 Engines, 2 Trucks, 1 Squad, 1 Medic, 1 Battalion Chief, 1 MS, Division 1, and an additional Engine or Truck
    33BV Burn violation 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    33D Dumpster fire 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    33H Hospital/High Rise fire 4 Engines, 2 Trucks, 1 Squad, 1 Medic, 1 Battalion Chief, 1 MS, Division 1, and an additional Engine or Truck
    33M Marine fire 1 Engine, 1 Truck, Swift Water 14, 1 Medic
    33R Residential fire 2 Engines, 1 Truck, 1 Squad, 1 Medic, 2 Battalion Chiefs, 1 MS, and an additional Engine or Truck
    33S School fire 3 Engines, 2 Trucks, 1 Squad, 1 Medic, 1 Battalion Chief, 1 MS, Division 1, and an additional Engine or Truck
    33T Trash fire 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    33TT Tractor trailer fire 2 Engines or 1 Engine and 1 Truck and Water Tender 20 if on I-85
    33V Vehicle fire 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    33W Woods fire 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    36 HazMat Incident 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 1 Squad, 1 Medic, HazMat 20, 1 Battalion Chief, and 1 MS
    41I/PI Auto accident with injuries 1 Engine or 1 Truck and 1 Medic unit
    41IC8 Auto accident with injuries with entrapment 1 Engine with jaws, 1 Medic, 1 Battalion Chief, and an additional Engine or Truck
    43I Hit and run with injuries 1 Engine or Truck and 1 Medic
    46I Person hit by auto 1 Engine or Truck and 1 Medic
    47 Drowning 1 Engine, 1 Medic, Engine 14, Truck 14, Swift Water 14, 1 Battalion Chief, 1 MS and Division 1
    73 Cave-in 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 1 Medic, 1 Battalion Chief, 1 MS, Air 9, TRT 24, Squad 24, and Division 1
    76 Assist a citizen 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    77 Aircraft down 3 Engines, 1 Truck, 1 Squad, 1 Medic, Water Tender 20, HazMat 20, 1 Battalion Chief, 1 MS, and Division 1
    79 Train derailment 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 1 Squad, 1 Medic, HazMat 20, 1 Battalion Chief, 1 MS, and Division 1
    89 Wash down 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    92O Gas leak outside 1 Engine or 1 Truck
    92I Gas leak inside 1 Engine, 1 Truck, 1 Battallion Chief

    hope this helps
    Last edited by kenyon; 07-27-2011 at 03:36 PM.

  16. #41
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    We have poor hydrants in our city limits. So even a working fire in the city is still tanker shuttles. Now our alarm assignments are not specified on HOW many trucks, more of HOW MUCH water these trucks bring to the fire. 1st alarms generally have 12,000 gallons of water being brought to the scene. A couple of departments with poor water in their community also do this. Now because every department has different trucks , the number of trucks vary. Our first alarms have 2 of our pumpers (1000 gal and 1200gal) and 1 tanker (2000gal), then mutual aid we have and additional pumper and 4 tankers. and a squad for additional manpower. Bring the total gallons around 13,200. And 8 trucks to the scene.With an additional pumper moving up on the 1st alarm dispatch. Now in our particular district we only have a handful of 2story houses. And 4 commercial buildings (the largest being a dollar general about 100X40) . And our alarms for commercial buildings have 2 additional pumpers and a ladder truck about 25mins away on it.

    Another department about 15miles away only have 2 tankers on their alarm assignments particularly because they and a neighboring dept for them own a "super tanker", 3000gal. So their alarm assignment is roughly only 5 to 6 trucks.


    Most still alarms are handled by one pumper and the vehicle accidents are a pumper and a rescue truck. Brush fires are one pumper a brush truck and a brush jeep. We also have a rescue boat that rolls with the rescue truck.
    Fire scenes: A well organized cluster F......
    These are my veiws and opinions.....Im just saying

  17. #42
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    wow, i feel lucky, in my county anything dispatched as a box, confirmed or not get 5 engines, 2 trucks, and a rescue plus the BC on the dispatch

  18. #43
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    I wish we had the coordination and cooperation of departments like you guys seem to. We cover 11 sq miles, all sparsely populated city area. No rural. We are bordered by 4 paid departments and one full volly department. Last structure fire I fought was a double wide, partially involved with heavy flames showing through the roof when we showed up, three of us got off the engine, we did not sound a second alarm for our department because most of our guys were out of town, we gave an alarm to the all volly department which was closest and they responded a 2 man engine which arrived around 10 minutes after we arrived on scene. Me and another guy pulled the line and went in the front door, we had one on the pump panel, we carry 1,000 gallons on the engine and when that other department pulled up with their 2 guys on an engine we had the fire out....

    A 2 story big residential structure in our area might net us 4 engines and a tanker, maybe a ladder but very unlikely, and never more then 20 personal, most times between 10 and 15 with only 5 on scene for the first 10 minutes. And everything more then the very first engine we have to call for by name, saying we want an engine from this department and a engine from that department and have department X send us a tanker...

    The limited manpower we use is stupid around here...I can only wish we got full staffing...

    I had posted earlier in this thread we got a mutual aid engine on first alarm....that got cut...lol...its just the three of us getting off the engine now...

  19. #44
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    Depends on the call of course but if its a confirmed structure fire its gonna get a "full" assignment, 3 engines, 2 trucks, 1 rescue, squads as necessary. No automatic mutual aid on our run cards but we have a very strong mutual aid system around here so we can count on our neighbors to help if needed. If its "just" an auto alarm or something it gets an engine out of each station, commercial auto alarms gets a truck also. MVAs get an engine or two and the rescue. The occasional EMS job gets a squad stuffed with EMTs. (hopefully)

    Dept demographics: ~30 square miles, pop: 30k, mix of commercial, residential, and agriculture, 2 stations housing 4 engines, 2 trucks, 1 rescue, 2 squads, all volunteer.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWDbuff View Post
    Which is exactly why we do the "box card" system. It's easier (and more realistic) to get three engines from three separate firehouses or departments, than it is for one department to man and send three pieces. We run on theirs automatically, they run on ours automatically. Works nicely too if someone "scratches" (cannot field the manpower and cannot respond.) They just pick up the phone to dispatch, and tell them "This is xyz, we're not going to make it, send the next due." And all dispatch has to do is que the next due company in the computer and dispatch them.

    Is also nice if command needs something, maybe another engine or truck....All he has to do is ask for the next due. No thinking. Just ask.
    Yes, for sure!!

    We have MABAS in Wisconsin and it's the best thing ever. Everything is already planned out so all you gotta do is request a "second alarm" or higher and they show up. None of this piecemeal requesting at Oh Dark Thirty trying to go through a laundry list of equipment..." I want this from this guy, that from that guy, oh and a this from that guy too."
    Jason Knecht
    Assistant Chief
    Altoona Fire Dept.
    Altoona, WI

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  21. #46
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    We've tried to set up such a system here, and have largely achieved it. However, as a "home rule" state, the county fire coordinator is just that, a coordinator, with little authority, and sometimes that's like herding cats.

    There is little consistancy in what has been set up. One locality has five departments coming on a first alarm (go big or go home?), another has only themselves on a first alarm and no extra alarms (every fire is different - we'll call who we need).

    Because of liability issues, dispatch has always been reluctant to take it upon themselves to dispatch the next due if somebody doesn't answer up.

    For that matter, since we dispatch by station, not apparatus, dispatch really doesn't care what's rolling, only who. It's up to each department to determine what should be on the way, and if you're mutual aid, it's really up to the "home" department to make the call for someone else if somebody can't turn a wheel.
    Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

    Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

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